Guest CL_Reatta Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Phil sorta reminded me of something I saw earlier on the local news about GM <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">possibly</span></span> moving from the Ren Center in Detroit into Warren into the Tech Center (down my street) Here is a link to the news vid. GM Moving??? vid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Two things come to mind:* No city income tax (as stated in the video)* The City of Warren screwed GM out of all that land across Mound Rd, GM better move back home to claim the rest of it. GM belongs in either Warren or Pontiac (where they have plants).I heard NOTHING about the fact that Ford constructed the Detroit RenCen. Ford used one whole tower for Central Sales Office for many years. Then, Ford flew out of Detroit (to Dearborn where they have NO city income tax, either). The Ford family was pissed because of that beautiful Detroit Riverfront building they gave to the City, then Detroit sold it to Comerica Bank. What's so different if GM moves out of Detroit? They still have an assembly plant in Detroit's Pole Town. GM would have that Chevrolet plant by Holbrook and I-75, except it's now American Axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Actually, Warren had NOTHING to do with any "getting screwed" out of all that land across Mound, GM had it, then sold it, remember GM would store all of its test cars there... GM also owned that land which had all the deer, which became that housing complex (mom knew the caretaker that lived in that dead end street off of 12 mile) I get my info from the city, and from Nick Lavdas, the man that owns most of 12 mile. GM voluntarily gave up that land, reasons I will never know... I enjoyed the fact that there was still some natural forest in Warren, not half million dollar housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daveagain909 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 gm should move south to either SC or NC and leave the unions in detroit. THis will make them competitve and maybe even the leaders. Toyota, BMW, and others are here in tehe south. I wonder why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Keep in mind that GM has (or had) assembly plants in California, Georgia, Maryland, Texas, New York, Ohio, and Michigan.Most suppliers and engineering and capable personnel are within 200 miles of Detroit. The companies you mention have those offshore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWC Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The companies you mention have those offshore." </div></div>Thats is just one of our problems in the USA, people buy some of the cars that are not from the "BIG 3" and think it's ok just because they are built here............here's a thought, where do you think the profits go??? If you said back over seas your right, and yes I know it does keep some Americans employed, but if they weren't here building THEIR cars we would be selling more of ours....THIS IS JUST MY OPINION and you may or may not agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kennyw Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Keep in mind that GM has (or had) plants in Mexico, Canada and the motor for the Equinox is made in China. Foreign cars are made in the south because wages are low. Motors are made in China because wages are low. ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 So true, padget. GM's most recent plant, an engine plant, is going into the Flint facility for good reasons.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL_Reatta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...GM also owned that land which had all the deer, which became that housing complex... I get my info from the city, and from Nick Lavdas... GM voluntarily gave up that land, reasons I will never know... I enjoyed the fact that there was still some natural forest in Warren, not half million dollar housing.</div></div> I remember they caught the hunter who killed the deer, it was all over our papers.What do you think Kennedy Circle is going to say??? GM had to choose between 'death or dismemberment' from the very powerful Warren Government (second largest city in the Greater Det. Area). GM finally caved after so many attempts. Warren couldn't wait to get a bigger tax base from million dollar housing instead of undeveloped forest. I miss it too. Nicholas Lavdas is a very nice guy, but he is strictly a Greek business man, first. You're right, he owns 12-mile (with the limo and jewelry businesses). Forests don't bring customers.I am crushed to see Pontiac cars go. Never would have happened if another corp owned them. Pontiac's reputation is supurb. It isn't fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 GM is a past master of "creative accounting". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daveagain909 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 so instead of GM or the other big three going to the southern USA, Which are right to work states, meaning you do not have to be in a union to work. And giving the work to US labor and US families they have to go to other countries to avoid the unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I resent the fact that you keep implying the unions are the problem with the American automobile companies going broke. I was a union worker for 25 years and I am proud of it. I live in Tennessee, one of the right to work states. We have Saturn here and it has problems just like the rest of the GM brands. BTW, they didn't get away from the unions by being in the South.The problems GM is having is a management problem, not a union problem. If the unions ask for something unreasonable and the management says Yes, that is a bad management decision. You can't fault a man that is trying to feed his family for asking for a raise. If it were not for the unions, American workers would still be paid with script and buying their food at the company store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ronnie, just let him go. daveagain909 still doesn't get it. We're all in this together. I haven't heard ONE WORD about the non-union shop employees banding together to GIVE BACK to GM, like the UAW has. I haven't heard about salaried workers coming together to give back, either.Hmmmm... now, who is the blood-suckers? UAW workers voluntarilly gave vacation days and holidays back CONTRACTURALLY. Let's see non-union workers volunteer that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMJAnew Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I humbly believe unions did have, and still have their place. I also believe they are AN integral part in the failure of the American manufacturing base. Not the ONLY integral part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Some people (southerners in particular) are almost congenitally opposed to organized labor. Pity.If you choose to believe that the ruling class has your best interest at heart and you'll get yours when it trickles down to you, you're deluding yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 If there wasn't a UAW in Detroit I cant help wondering how much would they pay in the south. If a japanese auto worker makes $6.00 a hr. and a UAW worker makes $75.00 a hr. how come a japanese car is not 10 times less the money? Must be the trickle down effect. Crap rolls down hill ( ask any plummer) money rolls up hill ( ask any employee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Might as well ask why the price of synthetic oil goes up when gas does. Same-same.BTW Florida is a "right to work" state. This means no closed shops (union membership may not be a requirement for employment). There is a big difference between this and being anti-union. There are a lot of union workers here, it is just personal choice.Might observe that this concept is very similar to the "Bill of Rights" in the Constitution which is mainly about what the government is NOT allowed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rawja</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some people (southerners in particular) are almost congenitally opposed to organized labor. Pity.If you choose to believe that the ruling class has your best interest at heart and you'll get yours when it trickles down to you, you're deluding yourself. </div></div>Here in Tennessee there are not many working people that are opposed to unions, they are just afraid to say they are for the unions. Although illegal, I know many people who work in non-union shops, that were told if the took part in organizing a union or joined a union would be fired. Non-union workers here can not voice their true opinion about unions without fear of retribution. That is why people in the North feel we are opposed to unions. The people here that are opposed to unions are small business owners who want to make a profit at the expense of workers not making a decent wage. Larger companies usually have union workers.One myth about "right to work states" is you don't have to belong to any unions. The fact is most of the good paying, highly sought after jobs have union workers. Some examples: TVA, Norfolk Southern, CSX, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Y-12 Nuclear Weapons Complex, Eastman Kodak, Boeing just to name a few. To work at those jobs you must be in a union. You do not have a choice as some people believe.Even some local government jobs here have union workers. Our local Electric Utility has union workers. There is a reason for that. It is not because the local government could not stop unions, it is because they want highly trained workers, who have served an apprenticeship under journeyman electricians, and know what they are doing.Even State of Tennessee workers have the "Tennessee State Employees Association" to represent them. True they are not required to join the TSEA but 90% of state workers do join. They know the value of having someone represent and lobby for them."Right to work" does not mean "non-union".What I have to say may add fuel to the fire but I didn't start it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nicholas Lavdas is a very nice guy, but he is strictly a Greek business man, first. You're right, he owns 12-mile (with the limo and jewelry businesses). Forests don't bring customers. </div></div>And the Shields pizza building, and the old bill knapps building, and the old Mickey D's, and parts of the Meijer complex.. its crazy... oh and the gigantic Wedding Chapel on 13 mile (that used to be his house) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daveagain909 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I worked and retired from IBM after 30 years and we where not in any Union and We the employees and the corporation made a ton of money. I have and had great benefits. But we do not have the legacy charges that the auto unions we do not get 90% of our pay after we retire, we get about 40%. And I feel OK with that. and by the way IBM is still one of the best companies and most profitable in the wold. What of GM. I feel sorry for you all feeling this way but you should look at what has happened to GM, Ford, and Chrylser. If not the union and the management. What is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwack Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Like any organized entity, the 'union' is no longer looking out for its membership. The work that the union leadership does on behalf of the membership is a facade for the self-serving items on the executive committee's agenda/union bosses (that benefit a select few). Due to the facade that is projected, union membership benefits. The implications of today's union is similar to the underlying agenda that accompanies many agendas of the Democratic party: They want you to be dependent on them instead of allowing you to better yourself and become independent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Your statements make if very obvious you have never been a member of a union and have no idea what the benefits of being a union member are. Your statement about "union bosses" tells me you have been watching way too much television. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwack Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ronnie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your statements make if very obvious you have never been a member of a union and have no idea what the benefits of being a union member are. Your statement about "union bosses" tells me you have been watching way too much television. </div></div><span style="color: #3366FF">I was a member of Local 770 (large supermarket union) for 10+ years (from the time I was 16, through college and a couple years thereafter). We striked twice - first strike lasting 5 weeks and the second lasting 13 weeks. The main disagreements had to do with salary structure & benefits <span style="text-decoration: underline">for new employees</span>. On the second strike, a year later it was confirmed that union leaders had mislead the membership (state attorney general got involved). They were indicted and three served time. The union was assessed a monetary penalty. So...they were caught THIS time (as if this behavior is isolated???).My experience with unions are what I initially said. They have become a facade for hidden agendas that benefit the leadership. They have become too politicized. The membership of many unions have become lemmings as that is what union leaders want. Be dependent on them vs becoming independent.</span> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 GREAT discussions, guys. Bushwack doesn't understand that a union can be voted OUT, if the membership is generally unhappy with their representation. Non-union guys don't understand that every new plant starts WITHOUT a union, and they fail to see the benefits brought to 'the company' by organized labor unions.Simple question: What is the primary function of the UAW?Hint: Ronnie touched on it.* Most would say, to make sure the workers are paid (no).* Cynics might say, to make themselves rich by sucking the company dry. I doubt any company would survive very long because the union would die, too. (no)* To run (or own) the company. That's a conflict of interest. (no)Answer: Contract Book, page 1. In order to work in this facility, you must be a UAW member. The UAW supplies the workforce: The Company sets the numbers, but the union checks credentials, making sure every employee is qualified to work within their classification.That's why the union will NOT write a grievance for employees who have absenteeism or tardy problems (or fighting, stealing, sexual harrassment, or a 'guy' who refuses a job assignment. These are fireable offenses because they prevent the union from performing their job.Sorry for being long-winded. We're all in this together; fabulous discussions. Let's support Our Neighbors & Our Troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwack Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GREAT discussions, guys. Bushwack doesn't understand that a union can be voted OUT, if the membership is generally unhappy with their representation. Non-union guys don't understand that every new plant starts WITHOUT a union, and they fail to see the benefits brought to 'the company' by organized labor unions.</div></div><span style="color: #3366FF">I understand unions. I also understand that rarely are unions or union leaders voted out. I also don't feel that unions are as beneficial to its members as they were intended to be (as early as the 1960s).Let's just agree to disagree. </span> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL_Reatta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...oh and the gigantic Wedding Chapel on 13 mile (that used to be his house)</div></div> My head is still spinning over that. I thought it was a funeral home. It took a long time to renovate; I thought it would be a funeral home again, not a wedding chapel. Amazing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMJAnew Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Your statements make if very obvious you have never been a member of a union and have no idea what the benefits of being a union member are. Your statement about "union bosses" tells me you have been watching way too much television. [/quoteI watched union stock room personnel read the paper from 11:00 - 12:00 so they'd have time to eat lunch from 12:00 to 1:00. During lunch they'd compare pay stubs to see who was leading in the 'overtime' pool. Also, they'd take this time to discuss whether they should put stock away during the afternoon, or on overtime. These individuals were less the happy about my roll as a servicing vendor until they realized my presence freed up more time for studying the weekend games....etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Good discussion and interesting to hear from two sides of the fence..... I guess the grass is greener on the other side.I'm not sure we will solve the problems with GM here and it surely doesn't solve any Reatta problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daveagain909 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 simplyconnected you said "* Cynics might say, to make themselves rich by sucking the company dry. I doubt any company would survive very long because the union would die, too. (no)* To run (or own) the company. That's a conflict of interest. (no)"These 2 statements are exactly what is going on with Gm and Chrysler right now. I guess it doesn't matter GM and chrysler are nothing now. Gm stock is just over a $ 1.00 and chrysler is in bankruptcy. I hope the union enjoys there 55% of nothing. They won that contract negotiation NOT. Now who will they have to strike..It is a pity I have only owned one non us car in my life and that was an MGA I now own 8 cars 6 are Gm and 2 are mercurys. To bad I always liked and felt I should buy american now I am very disapointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney Eaton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure we will solve the problems with GM here and it surely doesn't solve any Reatta problems. </div></div> Barney, it all goes together. The Riatta was a wonderful car by ALL accounts. If GM didn't stick their big corporate neck out, NONE of them would exist. Riatta hung tough for three years but couldn't sustain because of sales.Here we are again, in 2009. Sales are down, and GM is offing Pontiac, another popular badge with a GREAT sales history (Olds too).Unions didn't kill the Riatta or the Pontiac, sales figures did. I owned and loved GTO's and BIG Bonneville's. When Pontiac goes I will say, "good-bye" to a dear friend that treated me right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CMJAnew</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I watched union stock room personnel read the paper from 11:00 - 12:00 so they'd have time to eat lunch from 12:00 to 1:00. During lunch they'd compare pay stubs to see who was leading in the 'overtime' pool. Also, they'd take this time to discuss whether they should put stock away during the afternoon, or on overtime. These individuals were less the happy about my roll as a servicing vendor until they realized my presence freed up more time for studying the weekend games....etc, etc, etc. </div></div>What you are describing is a management problem, not a union problem. Management is responsible for seeing to it that employees are doing their job. Once again it points to the fact that management is to blame for the downfall of the American auto industry. Any employee not willing to do his job should be fired. Only management can discipline employees. Unions have no control over that. There are sorry employees in all large companies weather they are union or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitnow Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 And the reason Management can not fire bad employees is because the Union protects them and has contract items that allow them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I can't speak about all unions but I can tell you about the union I was in (I still belong in retired status). The union is the International Association of Machinist and Aerospace Workers.Management could fire anyone at anytime for breaking any company rules that included failure to perform your assigned duties. Firing could be permanent for a major infraction, like fighting or stealing, or for a set period of time, depending on the severity of the infraction. As a union employee you had the right to have your union representative in the office when you were fired to represent you. Once fired you had to leave the company property immediately. After you were fired you could request your union representative to appeal your firing to the next higher official of the company who would then hold an investigation. I have known the union representative to refuse to appeal the firing to a higher official if he felt you were obviously guilty as charged. I have known it to take over a year for the person fired to get back to work if he appealed and was found to be innocent. During the time of the investigation and appeal process he was not paid. Usually part of the agreement to let him come back to work was that he would receive no back pay. So you can see that if you won you still were a loser. There were some rare times when the employee would receive back pay.I admit the union would do what they could to help you get back to work but I know of nothing in our contract that kept you from getting fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 OH, I've been written-up and docked. At paycheck time, it hurt. I made sure THAT never happened again.A few disciplinary write-ups brings a month off. The door isn't far behind. Shape up or ship out. I have seen seniority employees terminated. All parties agreed, in every case it was for a good reason, not an emotional clashing of personalities.The Company and the Union have work to do. 1,500 hard-working personalities in one building is VERY tough to manage, but those cars always came off the line, one per minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitnow Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I was a Union officer for 15 years, don't tell me that BS.I know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kennyw Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 daveagain:> please tell me how my Gm pension of $1,003.00 a month is 90 percent of my working pay? I'll take your 40% any time. I live the the real world of $12,000 a year and that is about to be taken away. God bless the U.A.W. KenI worked and retired from IBM after 30 years and we where not in any Union and We the employees and the corporation made a ton of money. I have and had great benefits. But we do not have the legacy charges that the auto unions we do not get 90% of our pay after we retire, we get about 40%.And I feel OK with that. and by the way IBM is still one of the best companies and most profitable in the wold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My head is still spinning over that. I thought it was a funeral home. It took a long time to renovate; I thought it would be a funeral home again, not a wedding chapel. Amazing... </div></div>Is that supposed to be sarcasm? If you dont believe me ask him next time your in his jewelry store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL_Reatta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is that supposed to be sarcasm? If you dont believe me ask him next time your in his jewelry store.</div></div> No, no! No sarcasm involved, and don't take me wrong. That tall white building with pillars and an iron fence around it, I thought it really was going to be a funeral home. How many wedding chapels look like that? C'mon, it's right on the busiest street around. I think of wedding chapels being at home in a more spacious and serene invironment like Halmich Park, or something along Chicago Rd., or a place with water.- Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMJAnew Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Same company.....same union......I witnessed, while doing my job as a vendor, one manager and one union rep "discuss" who's job it is to empty the garbage can. The portion of this discussion I was privy to took at least 45 minutes. They seemed no nearer a conclusion as they moved it elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manikmekanik Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a union can be voted OUT, if the membership is generally unhappy with their representation. </div></div> Ironically, our govrenment can also be voted out, as our constitution provides for the citizens to abolish it.So, shall we fire them all, and start over with representatives who understand, and represent the needs and desires of the citizens, instead of thier party and contributors?When Chrysler recieved a gov't. LOAN in the 80's, the our President did'nt require them to axe Lee Iacocca. He turned Chrysler around, paid-off the loan, then bought AMC, leaving Renault in the dust.Our current administration seems to think they own our automakers, and want to decide how they operate, what they build, and who's in charge. Forcing Wagoner out of GM was a big mistake IMHO, and equates to Facism....And loaning Fiat money to buy-in to Chrysler, (or, even worse, GM!) is an even bigger mistake. Just look at what's happened to US cars made in conjunction with Italian Mfrs. in the past...Chrysler's TC by Maserati, or Cadillac's Allante, from Pininfarin, both serviceability nightmares. The Renault "Alliance" with AMC was thier demise. Let's keep US-made cars US-made!If US car mfrs. want to build thier cars abroad, pull the plug on financing, let 'em get loans from the host country, and call 'em imports! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">e] No, no! No sarcasm involved, and don't take me wrong. That tall white building with pillars and an iron fence around it, I thought it really was going to be a funeral home. How many wedding chapels look like that? C'mon, it's right on the busiest street around. I think of wedding chapels being at home in a more spacious and serene invironment like Halmich Park, or something along Chicago Rd., or a place with water.- Dave </div></div>HAHA ok... ya a funeral home would make 100% more sense... but it is a Michigan historic home or whatever, so I guess its better to have events of people happiest day happen in there instead of their saddest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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