General Motors on Life Support???

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets hope capitalism doesn't prevail. </div></div>

Dave, I have to wonder what you'd replace it with.</div></div>

Something very different from <span style="text-decoration: underline">this</span> in this instance:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like it or not, sooner or later all human cultural systems come down to survival of the fittest. Is that cold, or just real? How many Utopian, state-controlled schemes have worked productively for long?

There are two ways to approach the problem. One is to force control on the system through govermental planning, regulation, and assumption of risk and responsibility. The other is to allow the capitalist system to function with reasonalbe, yet minimal controls, aimed primarily at rules of conduct and establishing a legal rule set.

At some point in time, our society has to accept the concept of personal responsibilty and cease to resort to a non-productive nanny state to make everything better. Sadly, we've taken this fork in the road, at least ideologically. Governmental intrusion will necessarily follow.

We have, in our individual actions and collective efforts, the ability to make a system that really works, without massive governmental intervention. We only have to rustle up the cajones to do the work, some of which will be mightily unpleasant. We can't do it on an ever-increasing goverment entitlement base.

To do this, we have to get past the 'warm fuzzies' of the artifical self esteem, assumptive equality, and deridement of healthy competition/winners so popular in society at large, our learning institutions, and our govermental leadership today.

When sports teams stop keeping score and everybody gets a trophy, Communism isn't far behind. But at least, we'll all be equal in our state-provided misery. Perhaps the bad news will be printed in soft magenta ink to avoid injuring our self esteem.

Cheers,

JMC

</div></div>

Because <span style="text-decoration: underline">that</span> means the death of all three U.S. automakers within a year, <span style="font-style: italic">maybe 2.</span>

Nobody wants to give the executives the "warm fuzzies", but living with their mistakes will be a nation caught in the wind, not just a company or three.

[Dave@Moon]

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">This</span>, however, couldn't be more on the money:</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> TOTAL COMPENSATION

The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided

to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately

$73.26 per active hour worked. This total is made of two

main components: cash compensation <span style="color: #FF0000">(SALARY)</span> ($39.68) and

benefit/government required programs <span style="color: #FF0000">(FRINGE)</span> ($33.58)</div></div>

RM,

In the lexicon of industry, the 'big' number is the 'burdened rate'. The MSM and talking heads do not understand this part, let alone report it correctly. They just do the "Dave@Moon math", and figure that everyone is walking out on payday with the "40 hour times the pay rate" check.

'Burdened Rate' in addition to benefits and required programs include administrative overhead (AO) which wraps the total cost of providing that hour of labor. It is typically a fixed cost/hour and includes facility cost, management, administration, legal costs, etc. This is where legacy automakers in this country are getting killed, not on the hourly wage rate itself. In many industries, when the burdened rate begins to approach 50% of labor cost, serious changes start to happen at the top.

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, if you think there is not a perverse sense of glee in seeing the Big 3 fail or people lose there jobs you need to read some different newspapers or listen to different radio shows! It is repugnant to me and equates far more than 5 people! I am amazed by what I read and hear. Politicians on both sides of the aisle should be shamed of themselves playing games that can affect so many lives. </div></div>

I must be watching & reading a different set of media, because on AP et al,CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, and MS-NBC I haven't heard <span style="text-decoration: underline">anything</span> more militant in that vein than what John just posted here.

Of course I don't bother reading opinion collumns unless they're posted as representing a group or club I identify with, usually with results like you see here!

I think there may be a tendency to avoid seeing the other's perspective by reading into it more than is there. It would be easy to dismiss the concerns John lists as impertinent by applying a nefarious "glee" to saying them. Many dismiss my comments by applying a similarly obtuse mindset that I haven't expressed or given cause for. I don't have any bizzarre/rigid ideology that I'm trying to support here, & I don't think John does either. I don't know anyone who could possibly be happy to see what's been going on of late. I doubt there are more than 5 people (in any mainstream media context) that genuinely do have such a perspective.

Some people do watch a house burn down with a smile on their face, ignorring/enjoying the hopeless pleas for help from inside. Most just watch in horror, with a grimace instead of a grin. It's all one crowd, and you can apply whatever motivations to it you want. We all watch.

[Guest Reatta1]

[quote

Of course I don't bother reading opinion collumns unless they're posted as representing a group or club I identify with, usually with results like you see here!

And therein lies your problem Dave. Nothing more needs said.

[Guest Jstbcausd]

Ok all complaining and predicting the coming of communism aside SHUT UP! Theyu did this to themselves and ahve no one else to blame. I have said this before and will till they chain the doors on the last factory- LOWER THE PRICES! I can get a fully loaded camary for around $28000 but a fully loaded Lucerne is almost $40000?!?!?!? WTF!!!!

No I don't want to see people lose thier jobs but really what was thier offer to congress- give us money now and MAYBE(not to be underestimated of a word)we can turn things around.

Give it up already. Yes in this world it is survival of the fittest in this economy and guess what- GM just doesn't have the skills it's need to make it.

How's this for a plan? Give them the money with the understanding that upper management needs to take a 40% pay cut, the UAW needs to cap salaries at their current levels for the next couple of years or offer a voluntary pay cut untill the automakers can get things straitghened out.

Ideal- NO but at least a sincere thought.

I agree it does seem unfair to save the banks and let the automakers fail but that is what is happening. I for one do not want to buy a piece of a poorly run company with my tax money in 2009, just to do it again in 2011? 2012? 2013? If they were to comeup with a concrete plan that couldn't backfire and fail- sure I'd be willing to help, but I just can't see beating a dead horse. GM can't survive this crisis without my tax money then tough.

I feel the same way about those who bought houses way out of thier price range and now they need help. And DO NOT tell me these people were tricked by the mortgage brokers. If you only make $35000 a year- you CANNOT afford a $100000 home. Same with the banks who offered these mortgages who now are standing there with an open hand looking for a handout. You did this to yourselves and I for 1 am not willing to help you, because how then will you learn?

I agree it is sad to think that some day(soon?) there may not be any domestic automakers, but maybe a better domestic automaker could emerge from the ashes? Isn't that the essence of capitalism? Face it electing the more charismatic canidate does not make things all better. Only time will tell where and when this crisis ends and just maybe America may be better off. I for one am not sure where we're going but do firmly believe in this country's ability to pick itself up from failures and emerge stronger that she was.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...I haven't heard <span style="text-decoration: underline">anything</span> more militant in that vein than what John just posted here. </div></div>

<span style="color: #CC66CC">

Militant? Hardly. Real, yes. Either we make the hard decisions now (not necessarily killing the B3) or reality will make them for us in the not-distant future. Now is better than later because bad news doesn't improve with age.

To paraphrase a notable General, all failures in human endeavor can be summed up in two words: Too Late....: to see the threat, move material, position forces, assess financial risk, act on information, make hard decisions.

If it is 'militant' to make the observations one would expect of a reasonable adult, it is sad, sad comentary on how far down the slope we have gone.

Cheers,

JMC</span>

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jstbcausd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> LOWER THE PRICES! I can get a fully loaded camary for around $28000 but a fully loaded Lucerne is almost $40000?!?!?!? WTF!!!!

</div></div>

Please,.... let's compare apples to apples!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jstbcaused</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I for one do not want to buy a piece of a poorly run company with my tax money in 2009, just to do it again in 2011? 2012? 2013?

</div></div>

Would you rather see your hard earned tax money go to aid every other country on this planet, because my friend, that's where it's going!!

[Guest windjamer]

The local radio listed the salarys for the presidents of some collages. Some are paid one and a half million a year. NOBODY needs or is worth that pay check.I dont know what the auto ceos are paid,but looking at the pre-posted chart the guy screwing a bolt in the fender gets near $40 an hr. THATS $1600. for a forty hr. week,PLUS BENNYS!!! Where the he** do I sign up??? Yes I think we need to help the auto industry, but it needs to come with a payback plan. IF every employee took a 50% pay cut the auto industry wouldnt need a bail out and befor you start to scream if you cant live on $800.00 a week talk to some retired folks living on $1500-$2000. a mo. with out bennys. That pay cut includes and should be ceos first

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Militant? Hardly. Real, yes. Either we make the hard decisions now (not necessarily killing the B3) or reality will make them for us in the not-distant future. Now is better than later because bad news doesn't improve with age.

To paraphrase a notable General, all failures in human endeavor can be summed up in two words: Too Late....: to see the treat, move material, position forces, assess financial risk, act on information, make hard decisions.

If it is 'militant' to make the observations one would expect of a reasonable adult, it is sad, sad comentary on how far down the slope we have gone.

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

John, not for nothing, but people as yourself <span style="font-weight: bold">should </span> be sitting in on these congressional meetings...........

[Guest windjamer]

Bob you hit the nail on the head with a previous coment. I said in a post last year we send millions of dollers to forign countrys and some of our own people are going hungry. Whats wrong with this picture??

[Guest Jstbcausd]

You're right my money is going to every other country in the world but, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GM?

What a stupid comment to make. That kind of narrow mindedness is what got GM into this mess to begin with.

I do agree we should be using the taxes that we pay to take care of our problems here at home first and to he** with everyone else but what is the chance of that happening?

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jstbcausd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're right my money is going to every other country in the world but, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GM?

What a stupid comment to make.

</div></div>

Duh! You said you didn't want to give GM your tax dollars to help them. I said "your tax dollars go to foreign countries, why not help our own??????" BTW, it's aid to other countries (FREE MONEY). GM & Chrysler would be a loan (MONEY PAID BACK). Grant you, stipulations have to be made with the CEO's & unions. And there's one more stipulation I would make to the people working at these plants. YOU COME TO WORK IN AN AMERICAN CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bob you hit the nail on the head with a previous coment. I said in a post last year we send millions of dollers to forign countrys and some of our own people are going hungry. Whats wrong with this picture?? </div></div>

Dick, that's the problem with Americans, they can't see the picture.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Militant? Hardly. Real, yes.....

If it is 'militant' to make the observations one would expect of a reasonable adult, it is sad, sad comentary on how far down the slope we have gone. </div></div>

Absolutely. I wasn't saying you were militant, John, just that the opinions I've seen expressed in the mainstream media weren't any more militant than yours.

I'm not aware of people happily dancing around fires toasting the demise of the auto industry, as has been asserted in no uncertain terms here. Some people seem to think that letting the Big 3 suffer the consequences of their actions amounts to enjoying/cheering/welcoming those consequences. To me this is a way for Detroit's supporters to easily dismiss your concerns without properly evaluating them.

It's just as asinine to assume that wanting to responsibly preserve the industry is "socialism", or worse as has been expressed here as well. Dismissing each other's points is not making your own, though fewer seem to understand that every day.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wasn't saying you were militant, John, just that the opinions I've seen expressed in the mainstream media weren't any more militant than yours.</div></div>

Dave, OK... I re-read your post again (several times) and see where you were going. Thanks for the clarification.

Now, where's my assault rifle?

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Reatta1]

Given the way taxpayer money is being thrown around by the Billions to bail out this or that or the other entity, I submit the following. All you have to do is look at what is happening in this country and compare it to the timeline. The downfall of our democracy is a lot closer than you might think.

30824.txt

[Rawja]

Errrr....... Jim, your text file is a hoax recycled from the last election, and as I recall previously debunked back during the R&R days.

See for yourself.

[Guest Reatta1]

Rawja,

I know this was related to the election by some nuts. I'm not suggesting the same. The story of the fall of democracy has been atround a long time. Whether there actually was a piece written by a past historian IS debatable. However, in looking back at history, this piece is not all that innacurate a description, so I still submit it for your pondering.

[Robert K. Blair]

I guess life in Northern California has finally caught up with you....When did you last own a GM car? Do you know Buick has made everyones' top car list for quality and reliability? Before we start bashing GM again lets get real with the facts.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> However, in looking back at history, this piece is not all that innacurate a description, so I still submit it for your pondering. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's just as asinine to assume that wanting to responsibly preserve the industry is "socialism", or worse as has been expressed here as well. </div></div>

I think this comes under the "worse" category.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">There are going to be a lot of people around the country and around here who will be revelling in fear for a while (economic, political, cultural, professional, etc.). They have already been for some time, and the fact that it isn't working any more will only make it harder for them to stop. They've forgotten the lessons of FDR (i.e. "The only thing we have to fear..."), and the idea that community isn't just who they pick to be in it.

Let the dogmatic be, and listen to the pragmatic. The rest will take care of itself. </span> </div></div>

[HurstGN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now, where's my assault rifle?

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

Sorry John....sold out.

[Reatta Man]

I'm seriously thinking of buying some GM stock if it looks as if they are going to file for Chapter 7 reorganization.

If a judge allows (or orders) them to break these ridiculous UAW contracts, their stock will likely double or triple in value as soon as the decision is announced.

Thoughts?

[R W Burgess]

Here's the chance for American Companies to take advantage of an open market. When everyone else pulls out, you show your "stuff"!

Upcoming Auto Shows!

Wayne

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm seriously thinking of buying some GM stock if it looks as if they are going to file for Chapter 7 reorganization.

If a judge allows (or orders) them to break these ridiculous UAW contracts, their stock will likely double or triple in value as soon as the decision is announced.

Thoughts? </div></div>

Thought: It's your money.

Keep in mind that in either Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 that the commmon stockholders are the very last to get paid. This assumes of course, that there is any money left after the reorganization/liquidation. The usual practice during BK is to cancel existing equity shares. The order of precedence for creditors/investors is:

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Secured Creditors </span>- often a bank, is paid first.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Unsecured Creditors </span>- such as banks, suppliers, and bondholders, have the next claim.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Stockholders</span> - owners of the company, have the last claim on assets and may not receive anything if the Secured and Unsecured Creditors' claims are not fully repaid.

Before ante up, I suggest you read the article: SEC Bankruptcy Information

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HurstGN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry John....sold out. </div></div>

Interesting you say that... Just prior to and now following the election, gun and ammo sales are up significantly across the country. I've actually seen a line at one of the local gun shops. Semi automatics in particular, are flying off the shelves.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jstbcausd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do agree we should be using the taxes that we pay to take care of our problems here at home first and to he** with everyone else but what is the chance of that happening?</div></div>

The longer this thread runs, the more convinced I become that 'we' don't really have a grasp on the enormity of the problem at hand. The B3 in the US are getting a lot of attention here, rightfully so. For better or worse, they are ours. For better or worse, 'we' need to do what we can to preserve this manufacturing capability in a functioning form. Now, most know from my posts that I sit on the conservative side of the room, but after a lot of thought, I'm not opposed to a structured loan to the B3 to get them to the other side of whatever it is they need to do to get their houses in order.

I think what we are witnessing is an economic Black Swan event. It is world wide (see German Auto company article) and the auto companies are just the first to really get hit. There are many parallels to the B3 issue discussed in the article.

We lose the way in discussions of 'who builds it best', because once you get past the point of making a choice in brands, that's not an issue anymore. What is the issue is that nobody is buying cars... US, Asian, European... <span style="font-style: italic">And, they aren't buying much else either</span>. For the first time in history, Asian auto importers are having to lease open storage lots in the LA area to park vehicles that are not moving to dealers. That is alarming. Toyota is offering a $3,000 rebate on the Prius. Five months ago, it was selling at $3,000 over MSRP.

What we should be carefully watching is the process the new administration is undertaking to deal with the crisis. Frankly, I think it's bigger than they are or will be, and BO is picking some good people, the choices of which are dismaying the 'Change' crowd. It's going to be tough to change the system, especially when the till is empty. To wit, all the howling about high Wall Street bonuses, was heard, actually. Unintended consequence, NYC isn't collecting income tax on the unpaid bonuses and the City Council is faced with some unprecedented choices while running out of funds. California is broke, and so are a lot of other states. Entitlements can only be paid from a deficit for so long.

Anyone watch the news on Iceland? <span style="font-style: italic">Rioting </span>in the streets to effect a resignation of the elected government... in <span style="font-style: italic">Iceland</span>, arguably one of the most mellow places on the planet. I think we should be concerned about what that means when our financial institutions fail and government can't deliver on it's promises, regardless of who made them. B3's problems are going to be page six below the fold when civil unrest begins in earnest. The demonstrations following Prop 8 in California are instructive indicators.

We are at a point where we can't make unilateral decisions in this world. Like it or not, we've become too interdependent. The US consumer stops spending enmass, and it has repurcussions worldwide. Bad economic things happen in Europe and Asia, and the impact is felt here.

I'm not to the point of recommending everybody buy gold, but that option is no longer off the table.

Cheers,

JMC

[Reatta Man]

Yep, you are right; I DID mean Chapter 11.

And I will do a lot of research before buying it.

[Guest Johnpaul Ragusa]

I was thinking about the same thing (Ford and GM stock). I dont think there is an intelligent was to make a decision. Right now the entire market doesnt make sense anyway.

I think the "CEO on the hill" was a public flogging for the benefit of the people. We watched some really rich white guys take a beating. It was representative of how we feel as a people and want to see these guys get what they deserve.

Personally I think, like all businesses, you should be be left to the temple of capitalism to either rise up or be sacraficed to appease the gods.

Sadly the government has opened the door and now they are trying to put up a velet rope to keep out certain groups. You just cant do that. Freddie,Fannie, AIG, Citigroup are no better than the big 3. Without debating numbers I would think the impact of any automaker going under (more so if its 2 or all) would impact more than anyone else.

The auto industry just got an acceleration to the inevitable. They were dead but just didnt know it. In a perverse way, this ecomonic downturn and subsequent government intervention in the private sector may be what saves them. If this were a few years ago, they are already in Chapter 11 and on way to being taken over or going under. Instead they turn to the government and will most likely get the life jacket they need.

If they do, they need to make some major changes to survive. They need to break the UAW contracts and start fresh with the workforce. The unions would rather see the company go under than pull back on the gravy train.

Before anyone goes bananas on my union bash, I was a member of a local. They were a great idea at incpetion but have deteriorated over the decades into being more trouble then they are worth.

[MarkV]

Democracy has not fallen, it is the baby boomer/hippie generation which has screwed up everything, gone are the days of the people who cared and fought for America a.k.a the WWII generation every President from Roosevelt-Bush 41 fought in WWII or were part of the effort and they all lived through the depression. Now, we have the ungrateful hippie/ live for today generation in charge, and now we have gone from a ex-hippie era drug addict draft dodger President, to a ex-druggie yuppie (80's coming of ager) for a President. What the problem is, is that none of these people had to fight for America or had to live through the tough times like the depression. And they are both beholden to big gov. beaurocracy.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Toyota is offering a $3,000 rebate on the Prius. Five months ago, it was selling at $3,000 over MSRP.</div></div>

Sales are well down accross the board for every manufacturer, but according to automotive.com there are 7 Toyota models which currently have rebate offers: Yaris, Matrix, Solara, Camry, Avalon, FJ Cruiser, and Tundra. There may be local dealers offering rebates, but Toyota isn't offering them. Also all hybrid models are excluded from the current 0% financing promotion.

Currently here in Ohio there ae still waiting lists for Priuses. They were occasionally seen available on the lots in late 2006 & early 2007, but before and since you've had to wait to get one.

=========

I believe the Big 3 deserve the extra attention they're getting right now. They were in bad shape before the economic meltdown, whereas the car industry in general was not. Most manufacturers are in a positon to last for years owing to a diverse product range, but not GM, Ford, or (especially) Chrysler. They're set up for a world where it made sense for GM to offer about 18 SUVs, and for Ford to offer 5 or 6 in one "brand".

A year ago there was serious talk of discontinuing the Ford Ranger outright (with no replacement), because no one wanted small/efficient trucks any more. It's not surprising that there was talk of it, but it's an example of how removed the American car manufacturer managment was that they were listening.

Have you noticed that Ford Ranger ads have suddenly re-appeared on TV?

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...There may be local dealers offering rebates, but Toyota isn't offering them...</div></div>

Correct. I mispoke 'rebate', I should have said 'dealer discount'. Toyota sales are off about 30% locally, so there are a lot of come ons in the Sunday paper.

JMC

[Guest Reatta1]

Gentlemen, at least I think we all are, after listening to all the requests for bailouts from the government, and they are increasing daily, and reading all these posts, I've come to a decision. I live on five acres of land and I've decided that I'm going to secede those five acres from the USA, declare them and myself a soveriegn country, and in January of 09, put in my request for a foriegn aid 'bailout' package. I'm also wondering just how much debt I can run up between now and then. When the new liberal administration and congress take over they should be sympathetic to my dilema. I won't be nearly as greedy though as all the car companies and financial institutions. I only plan to ask for $10 million, a mere tiny drop in the bucket compared to all the other largesse they are handing out. I believe that would see me to my grave and maybe even leave a little to my heirs. Now how's that for a plan? And I really believe I deserve it. After all, I've supported this country and the auto industry and financial institutions and retailers and what have you for 70+ years. NOW IT'S MY TURN.

[Guest Skyking]

There's one thing that's been puzzling me. Gas prices! Was there a reason for the $4.00 at the pump price?? Since the B3 announced trouble, the prices dropped dramaticly. Maybe this is bigger than we all think. Remember, there's certain companies and wealthy people that control the world.

[Guest Johnpaul Ragusa]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentlemen, at least I think we all are, after listening to all the requests for bailouts from the government, and they are increasing daily, and reading all these posts, I've come to a decision. I live on five acres of land and I've decided that I'm going to secede those five acres from the USA, declare them and myself a soveriegn country, and in January of 09, put in my request for a foriegn aid 'bailout' package. I'm also wondering just how much debt I can run up between now and then. When the new liberal administration and congress take over they should be sympathetic to my dilema. I won't be nearly as greedy though as all the car companies and financial institutions. I only plan to ask for $10 million, a mere tiny drop in the bucket compared to all the other largesse they are handing out. I believe that would see me to my grave and maybe even leave a little to my heirs. Now how's that for a plan? And I really believe I deserve it. After all, I've supported this country and the auto industry and financial institutions and retailers and what have you for 70+ years. NOW IT'S MY TURN. </div></div>

Can I seek refuge in your new country? Will I have access to free medical care and programs even though I am not a citizen? Can I badmouth it with my new freedoms?

Oh wait a minute..........

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've come to a decision. I live on five acres of land and I've decided that I'm going to secede those five acres from the USA, declare them and myself a soveriegn country, and in January of 09, put in my request for a foriegn aid 'bailout' package. I'm also wondering just how much debt I can run up between now and then. When the new liberal administration and congress take over they should be sympathetic to my dilema.</div></div>

Well, if you'd like to take the rice out of the mouths of starving people (<span style="font-style: italic">albeit just the ones we think we can get something from, mainly oil from recipients #s 1 & 2--Nigeria and Iraq</span>), I'm sure you can get your 15 cents per day's worth if you don't wind up in jail first. I know we don't look <span style="font-style: italic">quite greedy enough</span> to our world neighbors, giving much less than half the world average per person or per percentage of GDP to aid the unfortunate. I'm sure if you succeed you can help with that, as do posts like these and the AM radio fodder they're generated from.

Now, if us wealthy American antique car owners are all done worrying about every which way <span style="text-decoration: underline">we</span> are oppressed, and how much money <span style="text-decoration: underline">we</span> don't have to spend on the next Packard that God and the Founding Fathers told us we're entitled to, can we please get back to pretending that we care about cars and the car industry instead of ourselves only? I'm sure it gets irritating to the people who think there really are problems in the world.

BTW, 5 typical acres of land in Oregon by itself is more than the net worth of most American citizens, let alone anything conceivable to the people who actually need aid.

===============

Can anyone tell how offended people get when tiny/unrelated/spurious/etc. concerns are brought into discussions like this, blown out of all proportion, thus making the substantive contributions moot?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's one thing that's been puzzling me. Gas prices! Was there a reason for the $4.00 at the pump price?? Since the B3 announced trouble, the prices dropped dramaticly. Maybe this is bigger than we all think. Remember, there's certain companies and wealthy people that control the world. </div></div>

The demand for oil is at a 23 year low. It would be nice if this were through conservation and patriotic sacrifice like it should be. There's likely some of that, but mostly it's a world-wide economic crisis that has cut industrial production and demand. A healthy economy, here and worldwide, will immediately bring prices back to where they were.

Cue here for someone to snidely remark that I want to punish all of you for not buying Priuses by having the prices go back up.

Crude Oil Tumbles to Lowest Since May 2005 as Consumption Drops , Bloomberg.com, 11/21/08

[Matt Harwood]

Dave, you just want to punish all of us for not buying Priuses by having the prices go back up.

Was that not snide enough?

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The demand for oil is at a 23 year low. </div></div>

I find that hard to buy no matter who's writing it. Read my bottom quote.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was that not snide enough? </div></div>

What is? What could be?

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Well, if you'd like to take the rice out of the mouths of starving people (<span style="font-style: italic">albeit just the ones we think we can get something from, mainly oil from recipients #s 1 & 2--Nigeria and Iraq</span>), I'm sure you can get your ...

Can anyone tell how offended people get when tiny/unrelated/spurious/etc. concerns are brought into discussions like this, blown out of all proportion, thus making the substantive contributions moot? </div></div>

Dave, there you go again. Talk about spurious and out of proportion...

Your chart is very much like the 'US is 34th in infant mortality rate (IMR)'. The numbers <span style="font-style: italic">without </span>adequate explaination are pointless, serving only as sound bite fodder for the 'enlightened' to use in urinating into our national tent. Sounds great coming from Angelina Jolie and Bono, but it's not accurate.

Points to Ponder:

1. You can legitimately argue the use of GNI vs. GDP, which skews the data based on effective income.

2. The chart reflects only Offical Development Aid (ODA), a government function, and ignores private and institutional philanthropy. This is very relevant, because like the WHO IMR numbers, each country has different ways of giving. The US's non-governmental contributions are always several orders of maginitude higher than <span style="font-style: italic">most </span>other countries.

US Dept of State:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The U.S. is the leading country in private financial flows to the developing world. <span style="color: #FF99FF">Personal remittances and net private investment flows from the U.S. to the developing economies are estimated in 2005 and 2006 at $44 billion and $74 billion respectively.</span> In addition, year after year, Americans are among the most generous people, per capita, in the world. During 2005, U.S. non-governmental organizations donated at least $13.4 billion to developing countries.</div></div>

3. While ranked 'low' the US contributed, using 2007 data, of the total ODA funds of US $103.65 Bn, the USA donated US $21.75 Bn or <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF99FF">25.4%</span></span> of the total.

4. According to the article you linked:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The United Nations has called on all nations to give 0.7% of their gross domestic product in foreign aid, but the United States rejects that standard, noting that it would require a U.S. foreign aid budget of $91 billion per year. <span style="color: #FFCC33">(Ed Note: Vs. the US$ 17.7 Bn (2003, adjusted).</span>

<span style="color: #FFCC33">(Ed Note: Bold emphasis added)</span> If the United States were ever to spend that sum, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF99FF">it would so dominate the global aid effort that it would be "imperial development by the United States</span></span>," Andrew Natsios <span style="color: #FFCC33">(Ed Note: Natsios has been notably wrong on some issues, but right on here)</span>, head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, said at the United Nations in June.

"<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF99FF">We couldn't spend $91 billion if we wanted to</span>," Natsios added, according to the Associated Press</span>.</div></div>

Keeping in mind, that this is a UN-sponsored number (Remember them? They brought us AGW, Bosnia, peace in Rwanda, peace in Bosnia, and effective sanctions in Iraq, and "Oil for Food", and a US $350 Mn UN Hq renovation overrun) So, what do we do, send shiploads of money that there is no way the recipients can effectively use (but, the UN gets a pass thru on)? That's a good use of resources? Or, certain breeding ground for despots? A lot of what we send now is stolen, hijacked, and/or ruined before it gets to the needy. Statistics without reasonable analysis are pointless. But, they make great anti-US sound bite material.

5. According to the Hudson Institute:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carol Adelman at the Hudson Institute has studied how much Americans give privately in foreign aid. She says it's a myth that Americans are stingy.

"We're one of the most generous people in the world, and that's because of our private philanthropy," she said.

Adelman published her findings in the institute's "Index of Global Philanthropy," which found that <span style="color: #FF99FF">while the U.S. government gave about $20 billion in foreign aid in 2004, privately, Americans gave $24.2 billion.</span>

On top of that, <span style="color: #FF99FF">immigrants in America send about $47 billion abroad to family members and home towns</span>. That's anything but stingy.

"Americans give abroad like they do domestically, through their private institutions," Adelman said.

After the tsunami two years ago, the U.S. government pledged approximately $900 million to relief efforts, but <span style="color: #FF99FF">American individuals gave $2 billion in food, clothing and cash</span></div></div>.

Why nobody looks at the big picture before deciding we're greedy, stingy, and heartless is beyond me.

Cheers,

JMC