'89 intermittent "No-Start" -Please Help

[Guest JSBojanglz]

First I want to thank Jim and steak for their responses to my thermostat housing issue(s).

Alright guys, here's the bigger issue...something for you to kick around and chew on.

When I bought my Reatta (2 weeks ago yesterday) it had basically been sitting with little or no gas in it for a year and a half...a drive here; a drive there, but no regular use.

When I test drove it was in love in first gear. -Something I'm sure all of you can relate to. It ran great. I put down a deposit and came back to buy it 8 days later.

Since it was basically empty when I got it, my first stop was a gas station 2 miles down the road. I filled it up and started home. Within 10 minutes it started stalling. -Ok, no biggy, I'll just throw some dri-gas in it. Did so. -Stalling issue seemed to improve.

Over the next 2 days when I was idling up to stop lights (or slowing down for the construction on I-75 ) she would stall. (Also, what I believe to be a related issue) When I had the cruise engaged on the highway and I would start up a steep incline she would/does hesitate and or sputter sometimes to the point of backfire.

There were 2 occasions when (on an off-ramp AT the traffic signal) I couldn't get her restarted right away. The first occasion was at rush hour it took her 3 minutes to figure it out and the second time it took me about 10 minutes.

For the next few days she did just fine during city driving (which is all I did) I finally used up 3/4 what I thought was just bad/watery gas and filled up again on a Saturday. It ran WONDERFULLY all the way to Lansing (about 65 miles highway) no stalls, no hesitations, no sputters. That Sunday she still ran great, but when I tried to start her it took me a few tries (mashing the accelerator while the engine was cranking), but she ran well almost all the way home.

With about 15 miles to go, she started her old tricks. A sputter here, some hesitation there, but not much...and still only when I was going up a hill with the cruise engaged. When I hit the I-69 / I-75 interchange she stalled once, but I was able to restart her easily.

Monday, when I was leaving work I had a no-start. I could hear the fuel pump working when I moved the key to the start position. I was getting good revolutions from the starter, but she WOULD NOT START. No sputters, coughs, wheezes or groans. -NOTHING.

I got a tow home (thank you AAA plus) and she still wouldn't start so I was thinking it was an ignition problem. I was busy that night so I couldn't look at her, but I did the next day. I had an old spark plug laying around so I was taking wires off their respective plugs to see if I was getting spark...Yup, you guessed it. She was trying to turn over. I reconnected the wire, had my dad try to start it again and she started right up. -Turned her off, started her again. -No problem.

I haven't driven her extensively since then, as I'm nervous that I'll get another no-start, but the few times I've been around the block (2.1 miles since the tow home) she's run like a champ. No ECM codes, just a BCM history code (0552?) and a CRT code (the malfunctioning tape deck code). It's obviously an intermittent problem, but since it's a "new to me" car, I really don't know what the issue is.

I'd appreciate any and all comment as I am at a complete loss. Please discuss.

[ReattaBoy]

i had simmilar problem with my 1990 reatta just about all the symptoms you have upon inspection of my cars coil pack i found tiny stress cracks all around it and also were the wire harness plug into it i bought a new one replaced along with new plugs and wires event thought they were just changed(just incase) and had no problems since

[Lucky91]

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like a full tune up would be a good start, replacing coil packs & plug wires..

Mike

[Guest JSBojanglz]

I'm glad you brought up the coil pack...I did remove it last Friday and took it to be tested. The lower came back fine, but the upper wasn't tested...

Can a get an upper and not a lower?

Also, is there any way I can determine whether or not it's the wiring harness that ReattaBoy mentioned and NOT the coilpack?

[Guest weewilly]

I know this seems simple but, did you change the air filter?, change the fuel filter if there is one (im sure there is)? More dry gas and injector cleaner?

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

89' no they were a one piece coil. I would go ahead and update to the new coil pack and controller. Other wise known as the Padgett upgrade.

This may be your whole issue, if not I would check the crank position sensor. Not sure if there is a test.

[ReattaBoy]

when u say "upper" im guessing you mean the part of the coil pack the wires plug into? if so these are made of a rather brittle plastic and over time the heat really does a number on it as far as testing it goes im not to sure i always go by visual inspection ie: tiny cracks and fractures and fading too if the plastic is faded a light greyish tint to it chances are the plastic is no longer a good insulator also check for the die-electric grease seeping around were the coil pack seats as for the harness chances are it is just fine mine is a little dryrot looking but still fine i guess could you unplug it and vissualy inspect for burnt brittle wire

[Guest Bobby Valines]

It said on his profile that it has a new crate motor,assuming that they also changed the coil and icm. and the crank sensor is new. I would check for a bad condition. My 89 had a few of them. Just a thought.

[ReattaBoy]

bobby makes a good point to check for a bad connection because if a motor was replaced there may be a bad connection as for them installing new sensors or coil pack 90% of motor changes are made using the same external parts b/c the person doing the work assumes that the car was great till the motor went!!!

[Guest JSBojanglz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D-a-n-i-e-l</div><div class="ubbcode-body">89' no they were a one piece coil. I would go ahead and update to the new coil pack and controller. Other wise known as the Padgett upgrade.</div></div>

Right. The previous owner had the engine replaced with a 3.8 series 1, and must have had the Padgett upgrade done at that point.

[Don B.]

I had the same trouble, the car would die when I came to a stop. But it did not do it all the time. It turned out to be the IAC {Idle Air Control}.

However my Mother's '87 LeSabre would not always start, that was the ICM {Ignition Control Module}under the coil pack. Past experiences tell me that if there is not a good ground on the ICM it will cause the car to chug under load.

[Guest simplyconnected]

When it doesn't start, do you smell gas? I'm not convinced you are getting gas all the time. Electrical issues don't usually 'heal' themselves, although you can make a good case for a loose connection, heating and cooling.

Before we go to electrical, consider junk in your gas tank may clog the strainer. If the fuel line liquid back washes, it will unclog the strainer long enough to feed more gas. This happened to me.

Here's the rub: Junk that accumulates in your tank has nowhere to go if it doesn't fit through the pump strainer, so it gets worse over time. Fuel filters are great for saving your injectors, but they never see big pieces of junk (or slime, or whatever) because they don't fit through the strainer. Apparently, your car sat for over a year, evaporating the good stuff out (usually varnish is left in extreme cases).

How do you wash the tank? This sounds a bit extreme, but I would park the car outside, and situate the empty the tank in a position where eveything falls to one corner. Make sure you can get to that corner with a (garden) hose. Then I would run water into the tank while a shop-vac sucks it out of the corner with the garden hose. As long as you don't start your car, no water will go to the fuel rail.

Look in the shop-vac for evidence of crap that could get stuck around the fuel pump strainer. Keep washing until you are SURE there isn't any more.

How do you get residual water out? Evaporation, or dilution. Rubbing alcohol sucks up water like Scotch and Soda. A few bottles of that from Kmart will set you back only a few bucks. After alcohol is removed, a few galons of gasohol will do the rest. It is compatable with alcohol and it sucks up any remaining water.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

What I've been doing with various engines these days (my dad's stupid Honda's, the 3.0L in my Bayliner...) is if it isn't starting, spray a little bit of ether/starting fluid into the intake. If it fires, you know that there's a fuel delivery issue. If it's still dead, its an ignition issue.

On the ignition/electronic side it could be a faulty crankshaft position sensor, coil pack (despite being a later Delco unit, they all can go bad).

On the fuel side you could have a bad relay. I don't quite feel it could be the pump itself because from my experience at least you'd experience hard starts and eventually failure, not an intermittent issue.

[Ronnie]

I hate to be so argumentative in my posts but I believe using a shop vac to suck out gasoline in any form would be a recipe for disaster. You would have a running electric motor siting on a tank of gasoline fumes and blowing into the area around it. I wouldn't want to be there!!!

[Guest Bobby Valines]

Ronnie has a point. Maybe a pump with a external motor might be safer.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

hmm yeah, I don't know how I missed that part but I definitely would not suggest trying it

[Guest simplyconnected]

Ok, how about one of those drill motor pumps, or an pneumatic pump. I think you get my drift. They even have garden hose pumps (sumps). Fumes can be purged prior to pumping, either by changing the air, or filling with water.

[Guest Ranger]

I think Bobby hit it. I had the same symptoms, it was the crankshaft position sensor, if it's bad, it won't allow fuel into the rail.

Good Luck,

Jim Too

[Barney Eaton]

You have a new/unknown car you have purchased.

While looking for your problem, you should do some preventave maintanence also.

If you own a Reatta, you should have a service manual.

* change the fuel filter

* check the major electrical connections at the battery

* check the ground connections on the radiator support in front of the battery.

* check the red wire at the altenator and while there unplug and replug the other wire.

On empting the fuel tank. If the pump works, disconnect the lines and turn on the ignition, the pump will remove most of the gas. If your pump is not working, you can get a hose in the tank...it just takes some proctice.

[Guest JSBojanglz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Bobby hit it. I had the same symptoms, it was the crankshaft position sensor, if it's bad, it won't allow fuel into the rail.

Good Luck,

Jim Too </div></div>

Would there be a diagnostic code associated with a bad Crankshaft Sensor? And would the problem be intermittent?

Also, possibly related:

Something I accidently omitted...on my CRT, when I check the "status" function, it tells me that everything is wrong. eg. It tells me that the Parking Brake is on, that I have low coolant/oil/brake fluid/washer fluid/AC refridgerant

etc...

Obviously the CRT isn't getting sensor information. I don't know if this is a common problem, whether its just a loose connection or a short somewhere...Is this a common problem, and would it cause ECM codes not to register?

[89REATTAJIM]

Also, possibly related:

Something I accidently omitted...on my CRT, when I check the "status" function, it tells me that everything is wrong. eg. It tells me that the Parking Brake is on, that I have low coolant/oil/brake fluid/washer fluid/AC refridgerant

etc...

Obviously the CRT isn't getting sensor information. I don't know if this is a common problem, whether its just a loose connection or a short somewhere...Is this a common problem, and would it cause ECM codes not to register?

I think that you have found the screen that shows what the various displays would look like IF YOU HAD A PROBLEM, not showing that a problem actually exists. Jim.

[DAVES89]

Jim is right. Pushing the status button gives you what the screen would show if you had a problem. To look for codes do the following;

1] Press the climate hard button. This will take you to the climate control page.

2] Press and hold the "off" and "warm" keys.

3] Have pen and paper to write down the codes as they come up.

4] Press end to exit screen.

5] Report back with codes you have.

[Ronnie]

JSBojanglz, I suggest you troubleshoot your problem in logical steps.

You can't fix it when it's not broken. Wait until it quits running and then try to determine what caused it to quit. Carry a few tools so you can check it as soon as possible after it quits. Waiting until the next day when the conditions of the engine have changed will not be the best time. Check it while it is hot and won't start.

First, determine if it getting a good spark at the plug wires. If you have a gray goo coming out of the ignition module change it and get it over with.

If you have a good spark, check for a fuel problem by spraying some WD-40 into the intake air hose while trying to start the car. If it tries to hit a few times you can look further at why it is not getting fuel.

If you determine that you have fuel and spark and it still won't run then look for a bad crank sensor.

[Guest MauiWowee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ronnie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you determine that you have fuel and spark and it still won't run then look for a bad crank sensor. </div></div>

Ronnie, it is my understanding that a bad crank sensor will not allow a spark. Is that not correct?

[Ronnie]

You are probably correct. I hadn't given it any thought when I wrote my last post. I was thinking in terms of it causing a spark at the wrong time by being out of adjustment but that may not be possible without losing spark.

[Guest Leadguy]

I am having almost the exact same problem. In my two week Reatta ownership. The codes I have are:

E034, E041, E042, B132, B410, B552

I just replaced the MAF today, but the car still dies on me. It runs great until the engine electrical problem warning light and CRT message begins. Then it starts running roughly and stops.

According to the service receipts it had a new in tank fuel pump and strainer install 3 years ago,so they shouldn't be bad yet right.

It has over 200,000 miles, however the engine and trans were rebuilt .

[Guest Leadguy]

I'm going to buy a new crank position sensor now, based on the advice here, and I will install it and report back. I don't have a manual yet. Is this easily accessible?

[Guest MauiWowee]

Lead,

It would help if you listed what year your car is. A copy of the FSM is available at Reatta.net, also Ronnie's site has a lot of useful info. And, it also helps if you start your own thread.

Welcome.

[Guest Leadguy]

Thanks Maui,

My car is an 89.

Here's the good news. The previous owner, who got the car from the original owner, never drove it because of this problem. He apparently tried to fix it by replacing the coil.

Well he didn't tighten the coil down enough AND he didn't tighten the wire connector that goes into the coil assembly.

After buying both a crankshaft and camshaft sensor, I was looking for there install location and I noticed the above problems. A few turns later problem solved.

I getting ready to take it on its first drive out of my neighborhood to return the sensors.

[padgett]

BTW the later Delco ignition is common in my local U-Pull-It and cheap, I keep several spares around. Did have a coil go last year and it is nice to replace just one.

[Guest JSBojanglz]

Alright, guys... Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but it's update and question time.

I narrowed my problem down to fuel delivery. I changed the fuel pump (no improvement) I checked the MAF, the IAC and the Ignition Coil. -All were fine. I started getting a "Lean Exhaust" code (on the days I was able to get her started at all) while idling. I dropped the tank and removed the pump and assembly. -I plan on having the tank cleaned professionally (unless you all think I should just replace it).

I want to do some fuel pump diagnostics, but I don't know where to start. If it's covered in the FSM please point me in that direction, but kindly translate the instructions to english. Any input would be more than welcomed.

Thanks, guys!

[Guest simplyconnected]

Hmmm... Let's go back a couple pages to the twelfth post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When it doesn't start, do you smell gas? I'm not convinced you are getting gas all the time. Electrical issues don't usually 'heal' themselves, although you can make a good case for a loose connection, heating and cooling.

Before we go to electrical, consider junk in your gas tank may clog the strainer. If the fuel line liquid back washes, it will unclog the strainer long enough to feed more gas. This happened to me.

Here's the rub: Junk that accumulates in your tank has nowhere to go if it doesn't fit through the pump strainer, so it gets worse over time.</div></div> Throwing new parts at a problem is a very expensive way to troubleshoot. Isolate your problem using good troubleshooting techniques, and all of your five senses.

You dropped your tank but didn't clean the rust out of it? At this point, maybe you should have a good mechanic go through your fuel delivery system for you. Fuel delivery is not hard to troubleshoot, and restoration only requires a few basic steps. - Dave

[Ronnie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSBojanglz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to do some fuel pump diagnostics, but I don't know where to start. If it's covered in the FSM please point me in that direction, but kindly translate the instructions to english. Any input would be more than welcomed.

Thanks, guys! </div></div>

You should have dianosed the fuel pump problem with the tank on the car by checking the pressure at the fuel rail. Did you do that? If not what leads you to believe the problem is the fuel pump?

Lean Mixture doesn't always = bad fuel pump.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Now, it's obvious, why he didn't answer my original post.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ronnie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lean Mixture doesn't always = bad fuel pump.</div></div> It could also be a "choked-off" fuel supply at the fuel pump strainer. The pump will still run like hell, but this will cause a lean mixture.

[Guest JSBojanglz]

Fuel Rail pressure was decidedly low. -I couldn't even get a reading without having the engine started.

The reason I pulled the tank was that I suspected a clogged strainer. I know the pump still works, but I don't know how well. I wanted to do some diagnostics while I had it out of the tank. -Which I'm still not sure how to do.

Also, the tank is still off the car...I can't really find any sludge, but there <span style="font-weight: bold">are</span> baffles in the way.

Should I clean the tank myself, have it done elsewhere or replace it?

[Ronnie]

Was the strainer clogged or covered with some type of debris? If the answer is no I would purchase a gallon of of alcohol from someone who supplies it to the local racers. Pour it in the tank and slosh it around for a while. The alcohol will pick up any moisture and break loose any sludge if you have there is any. Pour the alcohol out and look at it closely. If there is very much discoloration to the alcohol then repeat process again with fresh alcohol.

IF the strainer is really bad and you have rust particles on it, or the alcohol cleaning results in finding heavy sludge or rust being broken loose, you may want to consider a new tank.

I don't know what test for the pump you have in mind but if I had the tank off and I knew the pump had not built pressure as you stated I would replace the pump so I wouldn't have to worry about it when I put the tank back on.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSBojanglz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuel Rail pressure was decidedly low. -I couldn't even get a reading without having the engine started.

The reason I pulled the tank was that I suspected a clogged strainer. I know the pump still works, but I don't know how well.</div></div>

You don't need your engine running to test fuel pressure. That pump starts the moment you turn your key to "RUN." Your pump puts out nearly as much pressure as your garden hose! It's not for the faint-hearted. "decidedly low" ain't gunna make it.

Bring it to a professional. He will clear your system with a few basic techniques.

[Guest Mike_s]

Would a leaky seal in the pressure regulator keep the pressure from being built up in the fuel rail and also cause the pumped gas to be sent back to the tank?

[Ronnie]

Once pressure reaches the set pressure of the regulator, the fuel starts flowing back to the tank via the return line. That is normal operation.

If you are referring to fuel leaking to the outside of the regulator, I doubt it would reduce the pressure. The pressure is regulated by a spring. If it is leaking I would replace the regulator.

[Guest craig hewitt]

Check fuel pump pressure has to be more than 45 psi i had same problem it would run on 16 psi but stumble and hard start put a pump in it runs like new simple check with a gage on fuel rail