Sources for bias ply tires

[Guest imported_Thriller]

OK, I know this keeps going around, but I wasn't able to search out a (relatively) recent post.

The Wildcat is in to have the radials put on the road wheels...I should be able to take a couple of photos in a few days. So, the steel wheels and hub caps will be off the car...the wheels can get painted (semi-gloss black?) and will then be ready for bias ply tires.

Obviously, there is Coker and Wallace Wade. I seem to recall a recent post that listed a "vintage" group within one of the tire companies as putting out bias ply tires...if I had to bet, I think it was Firestone. Can someone confirm this for me? Living in Canuckistan, it may be easier to get my tire dealer to order them through the company rather than me going to Wallace Wade and dealing with shipping and customs.

In case anyone is curious, I'll be looking for 8.45-15 tires with whitewall (I understand about an inch).

Thanks.

[Mark Shaw]

Derek,

Why do you want bias ply tires?

Check this out:

http://www.widewhitewalltires.com/2008Catalog/WebCatalog1_hi.pdf

[Rooster]

I strongly suggest putting on WWW radials as per Mark's post.

You won't believe the difference.

[Guest my3buicks]

If you read the original post, he is having <span style="color: #FF0000">radials</span> put on the Chrome Wheels, and wanting to put <span style="color: #CC0000">bias</span> on the steel wheels. One would think with this configuration he is planning on using the steel wheels with correct bias for more formal judged shows and the Chrome Wheels for cruising and enjoying.

[Mark Shaw]

Keith,

OK, I didn't see it because I am not into having my cars judged....

I see it now....; so is it really worth the cost of a set of bias ply tires for a few extra points in judging the car?

[Guest imported_Thriller]

It's 10 points of mandatory deductions since it is a point per tire for incorrect type (radial) and incorrect size (P metric vs. old tire sizing). The Gold / Silver / Bronze categories all basically 15 point spreads, so a 10 point deduction almost assures a lower award.

From page 7 of the 2005 Judges' Manual:

Gold - 385-400 points

Silver - 370-384

Bronze - 355-369

Without that mandatory 10 point deduction, I think my car goes from being a top bronze to a solid silver, if not better.

Is it worth it? I don't know. This is the first, and possibly only, car that I'm wanting judged seriously. Those incremental points at the top end though are expensive. I have a functional steering wheel on the car, but I'm replacing it with a very nice one...steering wheels are worth 3 points total. There are a few other odds and ends that I still need to address, and I'll certainly get to some of them. After getting home from Colorado Springs though, I don't expect this car to see the inside of my trailer again though.

The beauty of BCA National Meets, especially now with the Modified Division classes and the Driven Class, is that you can generally get recognition for having your car at the meet without getting into the 400 point judging. Of course, that doesn't really apply well to the really early cars either though, particularly if you have a significant distance to get to the meet.

Besides, if the Wildcat scores really well, I can refer to it as a "show car" without wincing. Right now, the interior and the trunk are the locations where I could make the biggest difference, but I'm not sure just how far I'm willing to go yet.

[BUICK RACER]

Kelsey Tires

They have original Goodyear molds with more modern rubber makeup, but I don't see the size you want. I've had their red line bias ply on my '68 GS for over ten years.

[Dave@Moon]

Lucas Tire sells a General Tire with a 1 inch whitewall in a 8.20-15. Coker Tire sells several brands in 1"/8.20-15, and a B.F. Goodrich in a 1"/8.50-15. I don't think anyone makes an 8.45-15 right now.

[Bill Stoneberg]

One other point about Mandatory Deductions... If you had a 400 point (No deductions at all) car with a 10 point mandatory deduction for tires, you still would not get a Senior award (390 - 400 points) because of the Mandatory deduction.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

I have no worries about hitting 400 points with this car otherwise....

[Guest 70 Electra]

Derek,

Seems like a number of folks missed the point....You've already decided you want bias-ply tires and are simply asking if any of the major tire companies make them.

I believe the answer is "no". I do not believe any of the big tire brands operate a vintage tire group. It may be possible to buy a vintage bias-ply tire from them, but I would suspect you are simply getting some of the aftermarket reproductions. This being the case, you'd probably be better off buying them directly from the outfit (Coker, etc) that makes them.

Regardless of the source of the tire, I would offer that these low volume batch-made tires have much more variation in construction than a modern mass-produced tire. This is more because of the manufacturing processes than any fundamental difference between bias and radial.

Thus, I would recommend that you use the "match mounting" process for mounting and balancing, in which the individual tire's force variation is aligned with individual wheel's runout. It requires equipment (and an operator) that are capable of doing this, but it makes a huge difference in ride quality! If you are not familiar with this process, I can send you a copy of a feature story I wrote on the topic for the Dec 2004 Cars & Parts magazine. There was also a nearly identical story in one of the muscle car magazines about a year ago.

[Guest 70 Electra]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thriller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I'll be looking for 8.45-15 tires with whitewall (I understand about an inch). </div></div>

Derek,

Are you sure you want "about an inch" for whitewall width?

In 66, most of the industry went to a narrower whitewall than 1965. I'm not an authority on 66 Buick tires, but as a former Tech Advisor for 65-66 Chevrolets, I can tell you with certainty that a full-size Chevrolet went from a 1" whitewall in 1965 to a 5/8" whitewall in 1966. (If you want to get really picky, there were some documented cases of early 66s with certain optional tire sizes being built with 1965 tires to deplete inventory, but this was an exception)

Is there a BCA advisor for 66 Buicks that can jump in and clarify?

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Thanks for the information Greg. I've heard of that method of mounting / balancing tires, but don't know if any of the local shops do it. I can ask my regular mechanic though.

As to the whitewall width, you may very well be right. We've had that discussion here before, and there was no definitive answer for 1966. The best we could come up with was that it was relatively narrow in the mid-60s. Unfortunately, I think the '66 full size cars don't have a technical advisor (there is for the Nailhead and other aspects). Perhaps there is one covering the Skylark that would know though...I'd have to check.

As it is, I haven't found a source with the 8.45-15. I may have to start looking for the optional 8.85-15...the car won't be driven on them much, so the difference in speedometer reading won't be a big deal to me.

[NTX5467]

I tend to follow Greg's orientation that the current "repro" tires are not quite the same as the originals were when they were produced. Even as the major brands were phasing out their earlier lines which had sizes for the vehicles of the 1960s, they were "cheaper" lines than an OEM-spec line of earlier times--something "cheap, black, round, and bias ply". Kind of adaptations to what was to become the P-metric "build" than the prior "_78" or "_70" build specs with respect to materials and WEIGHT. The exterior cosmetics of the tire might be accurate and it might have the same number of plies and such, but I'd almost bet it'll be lighter (in the 8.45x15 size) than 28-30 lbs like the originals were--I don't know that for a fact, but it's just my gut suspicion.

When "force variation" mounting came about several years ago, it was mainly a car dealer situation as it was the preferred method of better-balancing wheel-tire assemblies against a simulated "road load" rather than just spinning in free air. As things progressed, many of the larger tire stores bought those balancers as it was a better way to do things. Seeing them in operation is really trick!

Earlier, what I saw called "match mounting" came about in the middle 1970s or so. The "high spot" on the tire was marked with a paint dot. This paint dot was then matched to the valve stem hole (the low spot on the wheel, they claimed). Therefore, the high spot balanced out the low spot and a more round tire was supposed to result. When it came out, it was a really big deal, but with newer generations of tire shop employees, nobody knew what it was 10 years later. By that time, almost everybody had one of the "no brain needed" electronic computerized balancers that could compensate for anything.

On the road force variation balancers, not only will it tell you what balance weights go where on the wheel rim, but also how many pounds of road force variation exists and at what point on the wheel/tire combination they happen. There are GM specs for car tires and truck-rated tires,too. In moving the tire on the wheel, it's less of a "best guess" as to how much to move the tire, but you don't know how it'll come out until you do it and retry the balance (more accurate than the "turn it 1/2 turn" or "turn it 1/4 turn", like in prior times).

I found out that in Goodyear-speak, "road force variation" does not exist, but "ride disturbance" does . . . according to their warranty coverage situations. There also seem to be discussion points as to whether you're supposed to do a road force variation balance (or even check it!) until the tire has about 500 miles on it. Still, the better you can get that tire to roll smooooothly down the highway, the better. Derek, perhaps you need to get them mounted at a tire shop that will sell you a "Lifetime Balance" policy???

Regards,

NTX5467

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

I saw a car with these on it- looked perfect...8.7 width...

What should a person who wants to go after a Gold Senior do about not having ANY proper aftermarket

bias ply size available???

Coker

[Guest 70 Electra]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wildcat65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...What should a person who wants to go after a Gold Senior do about not having ANY proper aftermarket bias ply size available??? </div></div>

I'm not sure about BCA policy, but AACA has a provision in judging guidelines (see below) that give owners an 'exemption' when the correct size is absolutely unavailable.

Owners not able to find a correct replacement

tire should send a letter to the

VP-Technical Matters indicating the specific

size of the correct tire and that at least

two tire manufacturers have been contacted

and the correct tire is not available. A

letter from the VP-Technical Matters is the

ONLY AACA ACCEPTED documentation

regarding a vehicle’s substitute tires. Any

letter issued by the VP-Technical Matters

should be shown to the team captain at the

time of vehicle judging.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

I've fired an e-mail to Alan Oldfield as National Chief Judge and Pete in his capacity as chair of judges' training asking for clarification.

Perhaps I'm the only one in this conundrum, but I'd suspect not. Of course, had I known this would be such an issue, I wouldn't have purchased the rallye wheels for the radial tires...sigh.

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

You are not alone!

I've got to have some tires for my 4-speed Wildcat.

We will have to figure this out.

Ted

[Guest my3buicks]

Here is a picture of a 66 Cat with less than 5K original miles on it. The tires you see are the original tires, the whitewall sure looks close to an inch to me. The owner of this car recently had surgery, but as soon as he is able, I am sure he would measure them to get the difinitive answer as to width.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Thanks Keith.

I got a response from Alan today...the answer was in front of us all, in the Judging Manual on page 13:

"If neither the standard nor alternate tire size is currently being reproduced, the next closest tire size up or down may be substituted without a deduction."

Of course, the ideal is to document what the original size was and to try to verify that you got the closest size that you could. Of course, you also need to have the right type of tire sizing. According to TireRack.com's Tire Size Conversion Chart, letter series didn't appear until 1970, so having that on my 1966 would be incorrect.

Now, going to Coker, they have an 855-15 in both 1" and 5/8" whitewall. I think the next step for me would be to find a dimension chart which will give me tire diameter or tire circumference so I can figure out which is best.

We're getting closer Ted.

[old-tank]

Derek

Way back when I was driving a 55 regularly the tire sizes evolved from 7.60-15 to 8.45-15 to 8.55-15 to H78-15 to P225-75B15 (bias) or P225-75R15 (radial). Even though the width and diameter changed (they got lower and wider) the load range is similar.

Link to conversions give additional info. Also check the Coker web site or catalogue for size and load specifications of various sizes.

I vote for use of 8.55-15 for your kitty.

Willie

[Guest my3buicks]

For the record, the original tires on the Wildcat mentioned above by me have been measured and measure out to be 1 inch exactly.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Thanks Keith...now I know for sure what I am looking for, although I'm going to wait for the credit card to cool off a bit before I proceed with a purchase.

[imported_buick5563]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thriller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Keith...now I know for sure what I am looking for, although I'm going to wait for the credit card to cool off a bit before I proceed with a purchase.

</div></div>

Do those things blister up in Canuckstan, too? I thought that was just mine, but I'm in the south.

Mike in Austintania

[Guest imported_Thriller]

If you load them up enough, they get hot enough. I've spent too much money this year...unexpected things like Lamar living vicariously through my bank account have put things a bit on the tight side for cash flow...sigh.

Of course, the only car that both Suzanne and I are willing to sell is the least valuable one...and even then it isn't finding any buyers.

[Guest ewing]

Hate to say it but if you have room to do it, it may be most favourable to your pocket book and to the car world, if you part it out.

For every restoration there are always 'organ donors' required.

Just needs your time and I know that can be at a premium too!