Don't drain a gas tank in your garage!

[Shop Rat]

I just received this from Bill Bibb, founding member of the Whitewater Region in Beckley, W. Va.

A friend's backyard garage here in town burned Thursday and he lost a well equipped woodworking shop, a 1937 Ford pickup and a 1957 Chevy Bel Air 4-door that his dad bought new.

He had come here to my house that morning to get my opinion on his rough running and power loss. We decided it was probably spark plugs and old fuel. He was going to drain the tank and put in fresh fuel and drive to Page and back (that's 7 miles uphill and will "blow the carbon out" really good.)

He failed to turn the pilot light off on his gas shop heater. Luckily he had gone to the house for something while the tank was draining.

Bill's friend is 85 years old.

[R Walling]

I own a body shop and I have a firm rule,

NO removal of a gas tank inside the building!

Do it outside on the cement apron, no mater what the weather!

[Bhigdog]

A lot of people underestimate or are ignorant of the explosivness of gasoline and especially it's vapor. I cringe whenever I hear of or see someone using gas as a degreaser or otherwise disrespecting it's danger.

I have a friend who, as a teen, cleaned some parts in a pan of gas in the cellar. He left the parts soaking in the open pan over night. He said about 2 AM the whole house shuddered when the vapors found the heater pilot lite. Everyone got out but he burned the family home to the ground.......Bob

[Guest Skyking]

Another dangerous thing to use is a drop light near gas lines or tank. I have a friend who's garage caught on fire because the drop light started a fire while he was working on a gas line.........

[Reatta Man]

The building code now is that gas water heaters must be elevated about 18". I sold a house last year and had to have the water heater brought up to code, so I just went through this.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of older homes that still have the gas water heaters sitting 5-6" off the floor. The CPSC says there are about 800 fires a year started this way.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03158.html

Even storing a lawn mower in your garage can start a fire!

BTW, anyone changing out an in-tank fuel pump should also do THAT outside, too! Personally, I always put the car in the driveway with a fan near the front of the car, blowing the fumes away from the house whenever I have to open up a gas tank or gas line.

Glad to hear no one was hurt.

Joe

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for pointing those things out, Joe. I'm going to be pulling a gas tank on my truck in the next few weeks and never even thought of those things. Good tips!

[joe_padavano]

It's good that we all get reminded periodically that gasoline is dangerous and I'm certainly glad that no one was hurt in the incident that started this tread, but in reality, the problem is not gasoline vapors in the garage, it's gasoline vapors near an open flame or heat source. This goes for water heaters, propane heaters, welders, grinders, etc. It's not just gasoline either. Paint fumes are highly explosive. This doesn't mean that these tasks all need to be performed outside, it just means that intelligence is required.

[72caddy]

Had a friend at work that liked to paint projects in his small garage. After the projects he would try to get the paint drips and such off of the floor by using paint thinner or terpentine.

One cold day he left the garge down down and started pouring the terpentine on the floor - soon the gas ppilot light on the water heater ignited and all those parts he had carefully put in plastic bags were now shrink-wrapped.

He escaped with only his pride hurt but we should always remember that vapors are very dangerous.

[Reatta Man]

BTW, we store Air Force aircraft outside with FULL tanks because the vapors that can leak and accumulate are the real danger.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joe_padavano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This doesn't mean that these tasks all need to be performed outside, it just means that intelligence is required. </div></div>

Now intelligence is the big problem these days.............

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, we store Air Force aircraft outside with FULL tanks because the vapors that can leak and accumulate are the real danger. </div></div>

The Navy won't allow aircraft fueled by the USAF with JP8 (let alone Jet A or avgas) on the carrier hangar bay. That's how serious we took the explosives issue. Navy uses JP5, a much less volatile fuel... but, it's way more expensive.

Cheers,

JMC

[Argyll]

I was a Captain in a Scottish fire dept and one of our stations attended a call to an explosion in a small shop on the edge of town.

The story unfolded that the apprentice mechanic was given the job of emptying the gas out of a faulty gas tank that had been removed from a car. He went outside, poured the gas into a flameproof bulk container, walked back in with the "empty" tank, across the workshop floor to the back shop.

Outside another mechanic struck a flame on his welding torch and immediately saw a flash of flame shoot past him, run in through the workshop doors, right across the floor, past the ramps to vanish into the back where the young apprentice had gone. There was one almighty bang, blowing the back shop door right off and sadly, killed the young man.

I have a very healthy respect for gas, old or new it can bite if not handled properly.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have a very healthy respect for gas, old or new </div></div>

We had a case near here a few years ago where two young boys were playing around and old fuel storage tank that had been abandoned years ago. As boys will do they dropped a lighted match into it. sadly both were killed.........Bob

[R W Burgess]

Not exactly a garage, but a young friend of our family has a 16 year brother that is now under house arrest, because of an accelerant fire. He and his buddy had broken into a beach home and took a bunch of kitchen cleaners to the bathroom. They decided to be their hero, Mr Wizard. They mixed all of the cleaners together in the bathtub to see what would happen. The resultant mixture caught on fire and burned the beach home to the ground. A sad future is now in store for both boys.

Wayne

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They decided to be their hero, Mr Wizard. They mixed all of the cleaners together in the bathtub to see what would happen. The resultant mixture caught on fire and burned the beach home to the ground. A sad future is now in store for both boys. Wayne </div></div>

Darwin's buddy the Reaper was cheated again...

Cheers,

JMC

[Reatta Man]

All sad but true stories. I'm amazed at how many people are against the hydrogen possibilities in another forum becaus of all the 'dangers' of hydrogen.

It is sort of like NASA; we have all been dealing with gasoline so long with relatively few problems, we can easily become complaisant.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is sort of like NASA;</div></div>

Sadly, there is more truth to that than you know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we have all been dealing with gasoline so long with relatively few problems, we can easily become complaisant. </div></div>

Also true. Of course, humankind is very irrational with things like this. Take for example the salmonella scare. There have been what, 900 cases? That's 0.0003% of the US population. Compare that to the DAILY number of traffic deaths, cancer deaths, etc, yet for weeks tomatoes were the top news story.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...how many people are against the hydrogen possibilities in another forum becaus of all the 'dangers' of hydrogen.</div></div>

I'll stick my foot in the door on this one... Hydrogen is dangerous in the context of publicly owned passenger cars. Not that the problems are insurmountable, but the consequences are pretty dire if precautions are not observed...

1. Hydrogen as a passenger vehicle fuel has to be in liquid form to store in any useful energy density, which requires ultra-high pressure and/or cryogenic storage. Even under ideal conditions, H is only an <span style="font-style: italic">energy storage </span>medium and per volume provides about one quarter the energy of gasoline. Knowing the handling problems of H in the industrial environment and the training required for the use and maintenance of H transport systems, I don't think John Q Public is ready for the task. You sure won't get the system serviced by the local shop. I submit that the first $18,991.87 service at 40,000 miles will be a deal killer.

2. H is the smallest atom, bringing additional real world handling considerations. It will leak out of all but the most perfectly sealed unions and tubing that will cope fine with the thin slippery gasoline molecule will be a sieve for H atoms, creating 'embrittlement' issues with the metal in the bargain. Our boys have a hard time putting the trim on our cars straight. Lord help us with getting H off the assembly line. By the way, H gas is invisible, odorless, pools, and is extremely volitle at room temperature. Just for fun, it has no visible flame, either. "Billy Bob! Aim ya'lls fire extinguisher at....???" Some of our early rocketry efforts ended early and in spectacular fashion owing to a lack of understanding of these issues.

3. Production techniques require the consumption of far more fossil fuel than it is going to save using foreseeable technology. So, you're at Ockham's Razor with H applications vs more economical use of existing fuels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...It is sort of like NASA; we have all been dealing with gasoline so long with relatively few problems, we can easily become complaisant. </div></div>

Ah... define "long" and "relatively few". I'll let NASA off the hook... they were not even NACA when gasoline handling problems were rampant. Early gas stations <span style="font-style: italic">routinely </span>exploded and burned, as did production, storage, and transportation vehicles. In the early years, say, up to 1925, significant restrictions were placed on how close gas stations could be built to 'civilization'. We learned to handle the stuff the hard way... or, as an old Navy Safety Officer once said, "All our safety procedures are written in blood!" Acts of auspicious ineptitude and ignorance as discussed above were the norm. I'm lucky to have survived childhood having committed some of the same idiotic acts (before becoming a Scout and learning better) that I observed many adults in my sphere commit....this was the late 1950s. The <span style="font-style: italic">History Channel </span>has produced a very good documentary in the <span style="font-style: italic">Marvels </span>series on the early history of gas. Worth tracking down here: Modern Marvels: Gasoline.

I'll take my foot out'n the door now and go back to my anti AGW blogging. Ya'll be careful out there siphoning that liquid H!

Cheers,

JMC

[Reatta Man]

John,

I didn't know about all the early, EARLY problems with gas; I'll look for that program.

As for NASA, it just seems obvious NOW that pumping up 100% oxygen to 14 PSI in an experimental aircraft (Apollo 1) full of uproven wiring is a dumb idea. Ditto with launching Challenger when so many engineers had been saying it is a dumb idea. And of course, why would they need to inspect the heat tiles on Columbia? Foam hit it at somewhere between 500-1400 MPH? No prob! If any Navy or AF wing commander operated like that, there isn't a location remote enough for them!

As I'm sure you have practiced, Risk Management is vulnerability+potential=risk.