To Stay a Classic or Not Stay a Classic, That is The Question!

[1937hd45]

Never underestimate the lact of knowledge of the general population. I got 1,080,000 hits on 1957 Chevrolet CLASSIC, 226,000 hits on 1985 Chevrolet CLASSIC, Camero guys are a bit smarter than I thought at 41,000 CLASSIC Camero hits. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

BTW, doing a google search for street rods shows that there are more online hits for 1949 street rods than there are for 1948. There are <span style="text-decoration: underline">almost half again more</span> hits than those two for 1955 street rods. <span style="font-style: italic">And</span> there are <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">almost half again more</span></span> hits than 1955 for <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">1965</span> street rods</span>! <span style="text-decoration: underline">And there are even more hits than that for <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">1975</span> street rods</span></span>!!! Apparently somebody is not getting the NSRA's messages! </div></div>

[Dave@Moon]

Since they actually made a 1985 Chevy Caprice Classic, I wouldn't put too much faith in that number. However if you correctly spell "CLASSIC Camero" with an "a" instead of an "e" you'll get 294,000 hits.

[1937hd45]

Thanks, I guess if I did have any interest other than scrap value in that stuff I'd know how to speel it, but you got my point.CLASSIC and Rat Rod are so overused the meanings are pointless. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since they actually made a 1985 Chevy Caprice Classic, I wouldn't put too much faith in that number. However if you correctly spell "CLASSIC Camero" with an "a" instead of an "e" you'll get 294,000 hits. </div></div>

[Twitch]

"If I want to see an original Model A victoria coupe, I can find one easily. If I want to see an original Packard victora coupe, it's a lot harder."

But that is the essense of striving to own the unusual rather than the mundane. I can see a Model A a couple times a month at events whereas there are no Packards of which you speak to be seen except very rarely.

If there is now 49 instead of 50 in a given geographic area the probability is I wasn't going to see one anyhow at the average cruise in or local show at the park. The really rare and expensive vehicles are seldom shown at concours activities sponsored by the Packard club or the yearly at Pebble Beach hoohaa.

Like the time this Cadillac V-16 showed up at our cruise in.

1st and only time in 3 years I've been going.

Anything rare will be a treat to see simply because there are fewer of them and always have been. But technically if somebody had never rebuilt the V-16 or it was parted out or some nut made a hot rod out of it the statistical probability of me seeing it in any form was very low anyhow.

There was an undercurrent of people saying it shouldn't be risked by being driven on the street and should be in a museum. Maybe, maybe not. But when objects are in museums they are protected from harm.

It's like the contingent that believe that all the WW II era aircraft should be restored to flying condition if possible. Well and good if there existed a huge number. But museums have their places for many a rare and unique aircraft have been crashed after $7-8 million restorations where they'd have been better suited to a $2 million cosmetic job and allowed to sit in the museum. At least SOMEONE would be able to see them.

It's like stock cars with modern running gear. They're similar to fighter planes in museums since no one can see the engine anyhow. At least somebody gets to see the original lines of the '48 Studebaker whether mechanically accurate or not. You and I weren't going to see any 1-of-50 rare car anyhow unless in static display at a museum.

Except for the scant few with irreversively modified bodies almost every car I see at an event is capable of being returned to 100% accurate stock condition. There are almost no radical customs other than the bizzaro jobs for a minute few in that tiny custom showcar segment of the auto hobbies.

I see mostly cars with incorrect modern interiors or incorrect fabric, not standard paint colors, different wheels and tires, wrong steering wheel, wrong era accessories and sometimes different engines. There is nothing stopping any purist from purchasing one of these cars and returning it to stock. They would spend less doing that than attempting to conjure up some rusty skunk car from a junkyard.

The above-described cars are what average people in the hobby own besides 100% stockers. The old Car Craft wild cars of the 60s are still around as a bare minority and the highly modified cars we incorrectly imagine are pouring out of custom shops are few by comparison to the total of the hobby. Relatively nad actually very few wild customs have been created simply due to the cost and time involved.

They're for a whole 'nother bunch of folks that enjoy seeing chromed chassis and 30-coat candy apple red paint jobs. But people that have acquired truly legendary autos spend money on accurate restoration detail and paint jobs just as deep. Same problem for lotsa average hobby folks- they don't relate to Bugattis, Talbot-Lagos, Delaheys, Delages, Bentleys, Dusenbergs, Ferraris, Maseratis, Cisitalias, Pegasos and ultra rare vehicles seen, if we are lucky, one time in public a year.

These are autos that if you're into one a $1/2 million you got a bargain. These few folks are as alien to the general hobby as the limited few who occassionally modify a rarer car- they aren't the norm.

I find it childish to worry about something as out of my sphere of influence as whether Johnathan Wittington III will properly restore his 1938 Bugatti Atlantic or whether Gomer Gibson will put a big block in his Stude Dictator and could care less whether Raoul Rodriguez chromes every piece of his '58 Chevy show car.

I worry about what I have control over and nothing else. BTW- I'm into my 2nd dozen "Best Original" trophies in 3 years with my Packard.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find it childish to worry about something as out of my sphere of influence as whether Johnathan Wittington III will properly restore his 1938 Bugatti Atlantic or whether Gomer Gibson will put a big block in his Stude Dictator and could care less whether Raoul Rodriguez chromes every piece of his '58 Chevy show car.

I worry about what I have control over and nothing else. BTW- I'm into my 2nd dozen "Best Original" trophies in 3 years with my Packard. </div></div>

I would find it more desirable and suitable to educate Mr.s Rodriquguez and Gibson just what it is their dealing with.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I might first try to impress on them just how many duplicate Year 2007 earths they would need to have a "geographic area" big enough to have 50 1932 Packard Victoria Coupes in it!</span>

Is there anyone not yet convinced of the level of automotive education that needs to be done, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">here </span>as well as</span> outside the AACA forum?</span>

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is now 49 instead of 50 in a given geographic area the probability is I wasn't going to see one anyhow at the average cruise in or local show at the park. The really rare and expensive vehicles are seldom shown at concours activities sponsored by the Packard club or the yearly at Pebble Beach hoohaa. </div></div>

My point wasn't that I was <span style="font-style: italic">personally</span> being deprived of seeing these cars, it is that another one is gone forever--that Packard would be extremely difficult to return to stock from its present condition, stock body lines notwithstanding. Statistics aren't really the point of the discussion (losing 1/50 is like the United States losing 6,000,000 people--not exactly a drop in the bucket).

Conversely, if there were only 50 Model As in the world, I don't know that they would become any more special simply due to scarcity--Classics are Classics for reasons other than rarity. You almost sound like you endorse cutting them up simply because those that are left will be that much more special.

The actual point of most of this was that fully restored full Classics are being rodded because these guys want something "different." I don't want to outlaw it, but it sure makes me sad. I can't control it, but maybe exposing people to <span style="font-style: italic">original</span> cars (not with goofy modern wheels/tires, not with modern bucket seats, not with "invisible" brake & engine swaps) will convince them that they're worth preserving and aren't the rolling disaster areas that people think they are.

Hasn't a V-16 Cadillac earned the right to be what it is?

[1937hd45]

GO FOR IT DAVE!!!!! Next car show you attend tell everyone that has an improper vehicle how it should be! Let them know how you would restore it to 110% showroom condition. Let us all know how it goes. We're all here looking forward to your report. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find it childish to worry about something as out of my sphere of influence as whether Johnathan Wittington III will properly restore his 1938 Bugatti Atlantic or whether Gomer Gibson will put a big block in his Stude Dictator and could care less whether Raoul Rodriguez chromes every piece of his '58 Chevy show car.

I worry about what I have control over and nothing else. BTW- I'm into my 2nd dozen "Best Original" trophies in 3 years with my Packard. </div></div>

I would find it more desirable and suitable to educate Mr.s Rodriquguez and Gibson just what it is their dealing with.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I might first try to impress on them just how many duplicate Year 2007 earths they would need to have a "geographic area" big enough to have 50 1932 Packard Victoria Coupes in it!</span>

Is there anyone not yet convinced of the level of automotive education that needs to be done, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">here </span>as well as</span> outside the AACA forum?</span> </div></div>

[ted sweet]

thats if he survives?

[Guest BJM]

I think what Dave is referring to is the overall streed rod/hot rod/rat rod/street machine hobby. Take a Good Guys event for instance. Years allowed mimic AACA. Local shows group all hot rodders together at least through 1954.

Some hot rods are cheesy, which makes me appreciate the nice ones even more.

[Guest imported_joecool72]

Greetings fellow enthusiasts. Good topic, so I figured I'd post my thoughts.

I'm a traditionalist and a historian, so when it comes to my taste in "classic" cars, I do appreciate original, factory built autos versus anything else really. I enjoy how they were meant to be sold and driven for the "everyday Joe" and it also sets a time and place they were built in history. Although I do appreciate & respect (I think the keyword here is respect) other sides to the car hobby, such as hot rods, resto rods, this is just my taste.

I think for historical purposes in the hobby, it's important to save cars today in original condition, but you also have to respect that others want to do different things. And we all have to remember that not everyone out there can find rare or older cars as easy as some. Not everyone can afford a concourse or show car, either. But you can just as easily find a 25+ year old "classic" for under $5000 that can just as well be a unique, original, fun can to enjoy in the hobby, however you seem fit.

Drive 'em like you stole 'em!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This horse is pretty tough, but, he has been beaten badly, we must not think he is dead yet..

Anyway, I would be less inclined to critique someone's car, since they have already decided on their path. I think the best approach to promote original cars may be to encourage anyone, especially young people (like Zonda or Wes) involved in a real restoration. MARC & MAFCA offer some programs to youth that can really help out a youngster who is serious about restoring a Model A.

This is of interest to me as we are looking to build membership in our local AACA and MARC chapters, which has dropped off a bit over time.

Some of these forums have the ability to poll, we may not be able to here. But here is a question I can't resist -

forget telling others what to - what would YOU do if given a car like the above Packard, say in less than perfect but very good original shape for its age? Say from a rich aunt, oh, and she gave you fifty grand as well.

I would leave as is to the extent possible and restore only if it really called for it. Years ago, I would have torn right into it. You could do that, or rod it, or go for Pebble Beach, etc. Thoughts?

[1937hd45]

Steve, If I got that Packard it would be on eBay in a flash with the best set of photos and a full bumper to bumper discription of every flaw I could find. SHOW ME THE MONEY! Restoration, Street Rod, Overseas sale I couldn't care less. Whatever it sold for I'll add to the 50 large and buy something I really liked.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1937hd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve, If I got that Packard it would be on eBay in a flash with the best set of photos and a full bumper to bumper discription of every flaw I could find. SHOW ME THE MONEY! Restoration, Street Rod, Overseas sale I couldn't care less. Whatever it sold for I'll add to the 50 large and buy something I really liked. </div></div>

37hd, although I always liked originals, I'm with you on that.........

[Twitch]

1937hd, Skyking....me too. I have no intention of telling anyone what they should do with their cars or anything else. It's one of the reasons younger people aren't involved in "clubs" because they get a bunch of old farts constantly telling them what they should do with their cars.

Matt, I think you are right- I wonder if there were only 50 Model As in existance what they would really evaluate for. Certainly compared to any true CCCA classic by definition the "last" 50 Pierce Arrows would certainly be worth more.

Truly rare autos are rarely seen close up by the unwashed public. The folks that own them don't trust you and your kiddies to even be near them. They want their high class clones only invited to events that basically bar most by exclusivity or by price of admission.

We'd hope we get to see one of the last 50 Pierce Arrows in a museum if there is one in reasonable distance. Other wise we aren't going to see it. Period. That's the reality of any rare anything.

Rare and exclusive cars are protected from public access like your weekly cruise in unless the owner gets daffed and brings it for reasons unknown. It's like the Sierra Club protecting some damged owl that lives deep in some woods where no one will ever see it except of course a few of the elite Sierra Club members.

I bet guys like Joecool72 are having more fun in the hobby with his 79 Olds than most who have several hundred thousand invested in their car corral.

The bottom line still is that we can't control what others do with their cars or in any aspect of their lives even if we wanted to...and obviously some of us want to desperately.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bottom line still is that we can't control what others do with their cars or in any aspect of their lives even if we wanted to...and obviously some of us want to desperately. </div></div>

Actually what is quite obvious is that having the imagination necessary to restore or customize a car does not corrolate <span style="text-decoration: underline">at all</span> with the imagination necessary to envision influencing others. Perhaps percieving the fine distinction between influencing others and commanding them is beyond the abilities of a lot of people with torque wrenches.

Fine lines are often not percieved by the less aware, and are therefore overlooked in the hope for an obvious "bottom line". It's an intellectually easy way out.

How sad for us all.

[michel88]

I believe that antique, Classic and special interest cars have a historic value. It would be nice if future generations could see these cars as they were built. I don't think anyone on this thread that is for keeping cars original, is suggesting we want to control what others do with their cars. There is nothing wrong with trying to promote the viewpoint of keeping cars original.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've seen Priuses and Insights that could be considered street rods. </div></div>

That's like trying to call the wicked witch in the Wizzard Of Oz a sex symbol......

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've seen Priuses and Insights that could be considered street rods. </div></div>

That's like trying to call the wicked witch in the Wizzard Of Oz a sex symbol...... </div></div>

GOOD ONE! I'll pass that along to a friend that has had his Insight up to 174MPH in his quest for a 200MPH Rice Rocket.

[Twitch]

We agree that future generations should see cars as they were manufactured. But how many future generations are we talking here till gasoline is a thing of the past and EVERYTHING powered by it becomes static junk? That day is coming. Yeah some cars should be in museums but there won't be room for all of em.

As for influencing others whenever you show your original 51 county Squire or I my 50 Packard we're making the boldest viewpoint statement possible in regard to stock vs modded. But we can only go so far. If a guy at the same show has a 51 Woodie with aftermarkets rims, steering wheel and a non-stock upholstry job you certainly aren't going to tell him the error of his way or you might get a mouth full of knuckles.

While I almost never see another Packard at any event I've see pictures of 48-50 bathtubs with painted bumpers, chrome and V-8s. I mean how bad does ANY car look with bumpers originally finished in chrome and painted like the body. The owner is not worth talking to but viewers will easily see how great a mass of chrome looks as though it were 1950 again compared to painting it.

So keep taking your cars out a let people see them. That will do more than anything in promoting what decent stockers look like. Once you look at a few cars of the same model with some mods they quickly become mundane in a larger sense.

A forum such as this will not be read by anyone on the edge of deciding whether to stay stock or make mods anyhow. Showing the original beauty of your cars will.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So keep taking your cars out a let people see them. That will do more than anything in promoting what decent stockers look like. Once you look at a few cars of the same model with some mods they quickly become mundane in a larger sense. </div></div>

I couldn't agree more.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A forum such as this will not be read by anyone on the edge of deciding whether to stay stock or make mods anyhow. Showing the original beauty of your cars will. </div></div>

Ditto for the second part of this statement. In fact these have been my major points all along, although "showing" cars is nowhere near as effective in recruitment as <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">driving</span></span> them. New recruits to the hobby can be found in any Walgreen's parking lot, they need only be driven past to take the hook!

As for the first statement, that certainly <span style="text-decoration: underline">isn't</span> true. As overwhelming numerically as the street rod hobby is, it is nowhere near as organized as our own. As a result there have been frequent incursions into the forum by street rodders who simply don't have enough exposure to the authentic car hobby to know we exist.

Just watch...., there will be a "<span style="font-style: italic">What V8s will fit in my Henry J</span>" thread started here every few months. And you can bet for every street rodder who posts such a thing there are dozens who log in and read the forum before putting their foot in their mouth like that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But how many future generations are we talking here till gasoline is a thing of the past and EVERYTHING powered by it becomes static junk? That day is coming. </div></div>

This may surprise some people coming from me, but <span style="font-weight: bold">that day is <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> coming!</span> Gasoline will become increasingly rare and expensive for sure, and will certainly no longer be practical for daily transportation for many of us in our lifetimes. However it is a manufactured commodity with a purpose, and as such will be available in some form so long as there is a demand.

It might be the equivalent of $25/gal or more, but you will always be able to get something that can be used as fuel in an internal combustion engine.

It is this price pressure as much as anything else that I think will return antique cars to a more locally important hobby than they are today. Cruising and touring at the local level will always be available to us. And that is precisely the activity that makes us the most visible and influential in the community at large.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Yeah I would imagine as we move toward alternative fuels maybe we'll even do it soon enough where the earth will still have enough oil that gasoline will still be around years from now to some degree.

Even if not though I'm real thankful for that firm in Missouri for figuring out how to make it out of garbage! To me thats just awesome, pressure-cook trash and run your car off it! It's a good thing, it would REALLY be a shame for all this old iron to become "static junk". Paintings are meant to stay in place and be looked at. Cars are meant to MOVE!!!

[Twitch]

When gasoline is priced per gallon like crude oil is per barrel- $100 none but the richest few will be able to have it. One day it'll be like whale oil. Sure it exists today and can be puchased for some relatively outrageous price but since gasoline and internal combustion are, and forever will, be linked to pollution to some degree it's not going to be looked upon any more favorably in 100 years than we perceive the "need" for anyone to possess whale oil by killing whales.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When gasoline is priced per gallon like crude oil is per barrel- $100 none but the richest few will be able to have it. One day it'll be like whale oil. Sure it exists today and can be puchased for some relatively outrageous price but since gasoline and internal combustion are, and forever will, be linked to pollution to some degree it's not going to be looked upon any more favorably in 100 years than we perceive the "need" for anyone to possess whale oil by killing whales.

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It might be the equivalent of $25/gal or more, but you will always be able to get <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">something</span></span> that can be used as fuel in an internal combustion engine.

</div></div>

I seriously doubt that the miniscule pollution contributed by the preservation of historic artifacts (like our cars) will ever outweigh the value in preserving our history in the eyes of all but the most extreme fringe of society. That said there <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> come a day when conversion to ethanol and/or ethanol blends <span style="font-style: italic">might</span> be a practical necessity to continue substantial use of an antique car. However I think it's more likely that gasoline will become a commodity you buy by the can at the hardware store first, like paint thinners and (sometimes) kerosene....much like it was at the turn of the 20th century.

It might even make driving a Model T all the more authentic an experience.

[R W Burgess]

Dave, I'm afraid the ethanol blends may be outlawed in the future. It's already driven corn prices out of sight. Food is going to be the deciding factor at the next turn of the century. People will certainly want to eat before they think about driving!

Wayne

[Guest ZondaC12]

Baaahh....food's overrated.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Food is going to be the deciding factor at the next turn of the century. People will certainly want to eat before they think about driving! </div></div>

Yeah, but who will deliver the food?

Seriously, what <span style="text-decoration: underline">is</span> going to end will be singular dependence on corn-based production. There will be several other crops used as ethanol feedstock in very short order (considering), if only to improve yield and decentralize production.

[Twitch]

Wayne did you see the Discovery Channel program on future cars? Well hydrogen is the least of it. There are so many concepts in R&D now with serious backing that it will come to pass before this century ends for sure.

What's almost scary is that a few are a hair's breath away from being viable in today's sense, meaning initial purchase cost and longevity coupled to available fuel.

You know the EPA recently effectively banned hobbyists spray painting their cars with toxics, ie. paint. Read Classic Car February '08 Richard Lentinello's column and you'll see they will make it illegal to OWN paint unless you are a certified pro. Sounds like R12 and the refridgerant hoohaa again.

So with that type of warped logic it's for sure at sometime in the future they'll outlaw toxic gasoline and restrict its use to specially licensed individuals.

If you want to fire up your 2017 Buick in 2092 it might be legal because they cleaned up the air by fitting all those catalytic converters to cows' mouths and butts to prevent methane release, but finding gasoline might be real tough. In a future society brainwashed to believe that everything wrong with the world was fossil fuels-related why will there be a commercial demand for gasoline?

The most intreuging future car was the one from France powered by compressed air. That works 100%. Now they're trying to get an on board air compressor to use less compressed air than it puts out to have near perpetual motion!

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Now they're trying to get an on board air compressor to use less compressed air than it puts out to have near perpetual motion! </div></div>

Say what? They're going to change the laws of physics, huh? Good luck. Yes, I realize that the prices of crude oil rising has caused all of this, but then we haul a little product to these Bio-Diesel plants, too. Some have been stopped in their tracks because of financing problems. Half built plants are everywhere. It's like the 1900's of car building all over again. Hundreds of visionaries trying to jump on the bandwagon.

Well, with me, I'll believe it when I see it.

Wayne

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know the EPA recently effectively banned hobbyists spray painting their cars with toxics, ie. paint. Read Classic Car February '08 Richard Lentinello's column and you'll see they will make it illegal to OWN paint unless you are a certified pro. Sounds like R12 and the refridgerant hoohaa again.

So with that type of warped logic it's for sure at sometime in the future they'll outlaw toxic gasoline and restrict its use to specially licensed individuals.

</div></div>

It's not warped logic. It makes perfect sense.

Everyone is warned not to vote for the toadies of special interests and unions to hold office, so we all dutifully vote in unison for the toadies of corporate America instead. <span style="font-weight: bold">You can da-- sure bet that the puppets of Greenpeace haven't been making the decisions at EPA for the last 6 years!</span> So now a vital service (painting cars, restored and otherwise) is now a process that requires a $100,000 buy-in (for the mandatory spray booth) and a fairly complex compliance program after that.

Now, <span style="font-style: italic">just who do you think that favors in the marketplace....?</span> Hmmmm....

It's clunker laws all over again. It's amazing what you can accomplish from inside a sheep costume.

[Dave@Moon]

That said I can't forsee a time anytime soon where the sale of refined oil products runs counter to financial interests that be. It might come, though.