Rare cars

[Barry Wolk]

In my duties recruiting car for Concours I'm often invited to view private collections. This one had some pretty rare toys. Name them.

[gwells]

Packard Darrin, Duesenberg, Reo Royale, Stutz. Or are you gonna insist on years and models, too? 8-)

[Barry Wolk]

Might as well. Production numbers?

[gwells]

If I must! 8-)

1942 Packard One-Eighty Darrin Convertible Victoria. One source gives 1941 production as 35 cars and 1942 was way less, I'm certain. My best Packard references are packed away.

1929-1932 Duesenberg Model J Murphy roadster. Don't recall seeing the production figures for this body style, but with 481 Model Js, I'm guessing 5-10.

1932 Reo Royale Convertible Coupe (license place gives it away; it could be a 1931 too, I think). One source says 49 built in 1931-32, with nine known to survive.

1928 Stutz Model BB, an "Indy Roadster", according to one source. Can't see the rear of the body well but it has running boards so I don't think it's a Blackhawk. I don't know of a reliable source of production figures for Stutz in 1928.

[Ivan Saxton]

I would say the Stutz is AA. The indicative differences visible are the drum headlights, the fender style, and the multi-colour enamel of the radiator badge. BB emblems are white enamel. You cannot distinguish enough in the picture to know whether it has Timken water brakes, or the later Lockheed hydraulics. If you could see whether the engine has a 2 piece cast aluminium cam cover, you might deduce whether it was before or after a certain engine # and date.

Ivan Saxton

[gwells]

Ivan, I'll admit that I was thinking the same thing, but I was able to find a photo of this exact car on the Internet somewhere and it was identified as a 1928 BB. But I couldn't find it again when I went back to check, so I can't refer you to it.

Edit: Ivan, you were right. I found the picture again and the car is ID'd as a "1926 Stutz Model AA Indy Speedster".

[Barry Wolk]

The Stutz is a 1926 Vertical 8 X350. I'm interested in anything you know about the car.

[gwells]

Barry, the little I know comes from reading "The Splendid Stutz" published by the Stutz Club, which contains a pretty detailed description of the Series AA model introduced in mid-January 1926.

FWIW, that reference does not indicate that the term "Vertical Eight" was the model name; that was Series AA. Quoting the book, "The new car, labeled Series AA, . . ." and "The motor, called 'The Vertical Eight' . . ." I can find no reference to "X350" in the book.

Serial numbers and engine numbers for 1926-27 Series AA cars are combined in the book, with the notation that "Demarcation between 1926 and 1927 AA is not sharp. Do you have access to the car's serial and/or engine numbers?

The book does contain a small photo of a roadster that looks very similar, if not identical, to the car pictured in your post; it even has the wide contrasting-color belt molding. Its caption reads "1926 Series AA 2-Passenger Speedster".

[Ivan Saxton]

What does the X350 mean ,Barry. I doubt that it signifies swept volume, because the BB and late AA with 3 1/4" bore were a whisker under 300 cubic inch. M series on, and whatever pre-M series prototypes had different water jacket coring, as you would expect; and they were 340 cubic inch with 3 3/8" bore. You could get to 350 cubic inch by boring out an M series, but you would have to take a lot of cylinder wall thickness to make an earlier engine that size.

All the best, Ivan Saxton

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ivan_Saxton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the X350 mean ,Barry. </div></div>

I don't know.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gwells</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1929-1932 Duesenberg Model J Murphy roadster. Don't recall seeing the production figures for this body style, but with 481 Model Js, I'm guessing 5-10.</div></div>

Greg

The Murphy convertible coupe was THE MOST POPULAR J Duesenberg built. The number built is 60. Bill's car is J341 and is considered to be a 1931 model. Murphy also built around 50 other body styles, most common is the convertible sedan. There is a beautiful Murphy dual cowl phaeton going up for auction at Herhshey this year, from the Swigart collection. The second cowl has the "V" windshield. Absolutely stunning!!!

Around a dozen of the 1942 Packard Darrins were built.

[gwells]

Thanks, West. I didn't know the Murphy body was the most popular Model J.

[Barry Wolk]

Bill did say that the Stutz might be for sale at the right price. What's the right price for a car like this?

[West Peterson]

Usually when an owner says "for sale at the right price," that means "stupid money".

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Is "Stupid Money" more or less than "Barret-Jackson Money" ?

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: West Peterson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Usually when an owner says "for sale at the right price," that means "stupid money".</div></div>

I thought it was a reasonable question.

[R W Burgess]

The Blue Reo is "hot", if that's appropiate for a car.

A shame I can't afford something like that.

Wayne

[gwells]

Well, I'm not too crazy about that Reo's color and I know I'm not the only one . . . 8-)

Barry, please check your PMs.

[Barry Wolk]

I see nothing new in PMs

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Wolk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: West Peterson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Usually when an owner says "for sale at the right price," that means "stupid money".</div></div>

I thought it was a reasonable question. </div></div>

Barry,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound trite, but "it may be for sale at the right price" sounds like he's saying it's not for sale unless you offer me a ton of money more than it's worth. Now, if you put a comma after sale and add a conjunction...

It may be for sale, and at the right price"...

that's a whole different thing.

It's a neat car, and looks like it'd be a lot of fun... at the right price.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

One of those deals where you move slowly - "right price" can mean a couple different things. Sometimes cars that are reasonably priced and just don't seem to be moving can fit that category. Sometimes the guy may just be sizing you up -"is he going to eBay this car within a week" "is he going to cut it up" or "is he going to love it like I have for 25 years.."

I have seen that before, you gently continue to express interest (and a willingness to pay a fair price helps) and you just may be getting that call when it is time to part ways.

Nothing new here, but thought I would toss in my thoughts on "right price" anyway. West is correct, that is code for retirement fund for many also!

Great looking collection above, though!

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Steve,

Well said.

Occasionally, someone will ask me "how much will I take" for whatever my "jalopy du jour" is, and I usually reply with a lofty price, hoping to screen-out pests and tire-kickers... I also usually try to pleasantly state that I'm not interested in selling ( otherwise it would have a "for-sale" sign on it)...

Now, if somebody is persistent, and starts waving "stupid money", in cash, under my nose, I might just take the money and run, and then go buy myself a nicer jalopy. (Actually, I would like a nice brass or nickle driver...)

But, this happens only in my dreams...

From what I've heard from a reliable source who travels in "Brass circles", folks who own "rare cars" are pretty cautious about who they seriously talk to about selling...

Occasionally I 've been "the right guy" as far as the seller's conscience is concerned, but I haven't been able to come up with the "right price"...

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my thoughts on "right price" anyway. West is correct, that is code for retirement fund for many also!

Great looking collection above, though! </div></div>

This guy is past 80, Lives in a 10,000 square foot 100 year-old replica of an Italian villa sitting on 16 acres at the very top of Farmington Hills, Michigan.

If I had his money, I'd burn mine. I don't think retirement is the issue. His kids are old enough to retire.

[1937hd45]

If you see a car that you like/want, TELL THE OWNER!!!!! I learned that the hard way years ago and lost a 1911 Hupmobile. Most people would like to know there is someone that is a ready buyer for their car if and when the time comes to part with it. My last two projects were bought that way, saw both cars years ago and asked for first shot. Calls came in price was given, I paid it and picked them up. Most of the good stuff is sold among friends.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

1937hd45, that is very well said. In looking at Barry's post I see I was not clear - Some may want to fund "retirement" on a car, but this situation didn't seem that way to me. (Packard seller I referred to may be more of a "speculator" - although in fairness if he is not up to speed on these cars he may very well be trying to see what he has to price it fairly.) This situation sure sounds like a question of arriving at a fair price, and the owner's comfort with the buyer. Don't know Barry personally but from his posts I would think he would be able to win the fellow's confidence pretty easily. I know a couple of collectors still active at that age, but most do begin to think about thinning out by then - so hopefully the timing is right. That is a very nice looking Stutz.

While not in the same league, I once met a guy who asked me a couple times about selling him my trusty (yes, it really was) Triumph TR-6. While I declined, he was polite and persistent. When my son was a toddler & the car sat for a couple seasons he is who I called first, and he is the one who got the car.

Keep us posted, Barry!

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Blue Reo is "hot", if that's appropiate for a car.

A shame I can't afford something like that.

</div></div>

I'd like to have the money that was paid just for the chrome, let alone the cars.

[Guest BJM]

The Packard darrin, 1942. That's my choice. Of course this thread started out asking for identification of the cars. I'm 43 years old, so I'm not old enough to be totally knowledgeable about the pre-war cars, especially non production. BUT, I identified the 42 Packard and the Duesenberg. The other two I had no clue.

I could not tell you years on Duesenberg J's, they all look the same. The horizontal grille section on the Packard gives that away as a 42. Because I know what that car represents, it means the most to me.

[1937hd45]

Steve, That is good advice to the future buyer. I'll forever regret not making the monthly phone call I used to make with a two man INDY car owner. The car wasn't for sale but we had nice conversations about it, and I stated I wanted it. Missed that one call and found out he did sell it, at a price I could have covered at the time. It's still on my TOP SIX cars I'd buy if I won Lotto.

[mrpushbutton]

Barry, I know Bill and his cars--past and present. A fine guy--about 1-1/2 miles from me on the same road.

[West Peterson]

Barry

I know Bill too, and again, I certainly meant no disrespect. I was merely trying to figure out what he meant when he told you "at the right price." And I'm still trying to figure out what he meant. If he wants you to come up with an offer, the car is NOT for sale except, "for the right price." If he will tell you how much he wants for the car, it IS for sale, and it might be "at the right price."

[Barry Wolk]

Mr. Pushbutton,

I'm going out to Baker's with the Mark II this afternoon. Ever been out there?

West,

I wasn't offended, I just couldn't figure out your response.

[alsancle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3Jakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Packard darrin, 1942. That's my choice. Of course this thread started out asking for identification of the cars. I'm 43 years old, so I'm not old enough to be totally knowledgeable about the pre-war cars, especially non production. BUT, I identified the 42 Packard and the Duesenberg. The other two I had no clue.

I could not tell you years on Duesenberg J's, they all look the same. The horizontal grille section on the Packard gives that away as a 42. Because I know what that car represents, it means the most to me. </div></div>

It's tough these days to distinguish 29,30,31 as they all have the radiator shutters now. The wheels went to 17 from 19 and the fenders were skirted on the later cars but basically there were no changes between 29 and 36. In fact, most of the chassis and engines were made in the first couple of years.

On the Darrins, the 40 and earlier had custom fenders in front as well as the extended cowl and cut down doors. In 41/42 I believe the front fenders were stock.

[alsancle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1937hd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you see a car that you like/want, TELL THE OWNER!!!!! I learned that the hard way years ago and lost a 1911 Hupmobile. Most people would like to know there is someone that is a ready buyer for their car if and when the time comes to part with it. My last two projects were bought that way, saw both cars years ago and asked for first shot. Calls came in price was given, I paid it and picked them up. Most of the good stuff is sold among friends. </div></div>

Bob, there is problem a when you are discussing a car that somebody has owned for 40 years or so. It is not so much about letting them know you are interested as being the lucky guy that let's them know right at the small interval of time when the car is actually for sale. Many times that is right after they die. In the case of the Schumacher, it required my Dad checking in every other year for 20 years (and that was just to see it).

A.J.

[mrpushbutton]

Barry--I hope to make Baker's one of these Sunday afternoons. Mrs. Pushbutton usually has something for me to do on Sunday afternoons--yesterday we had my daughter's birthday party at our house. I'll make it out there one of these days.

I'll be the one with the last unmolested 1963 Chevy II in the world, until my Packard is road ready again.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Whether it leads to a purchase or not, I would imagine it would be nice to take a ride in any of those four vehicles. Not everyone is quick to turn the keys over, even to a friend, but hopefully he is using these cars at least on occasion. I would carve out some time to take a ride in a Darrin or Stutz.. It looked like the type of garage where the cars are kept in running order and used -

[79 Corona]

I'm amazed that you folks can find info on all these cars.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Welcome '79 Corona. I was actually thinking just the opposite - relatively easy to find reams of information on a car like a Duesenberg J that has been collectible for well over 50 years - or even the 240Z - but a '79 Corona, well, that is a rare bird, at least here in the northeast.

If you have not already done so and are interested in this sort of thing, join AACA & a marque specific club - the old hands will generally be glad to share.

Hope you enjoy the forum!