NTX5467

I was thinking she had passed. My apologies for that error on my part. I had known that Ed had passed, though. Original post edited. NTX5467

Howdy -- In reading the "President's Message" in the April 2024 BUGLE, there was a mention of a proposal to implement some changes to National Meet Judging. To include items done to vehicles not allowed in the normal 400 Point System, but not to the level of putting the vehicle automatically in the Modified Class. First, the Integrity, Status, or Importance of the existing 400 Point System does NOT and should NOT be compromised, diluted or watered-down, or other wise diminished in any manner, period. Yet there are some vehicles which cannot participate in the 400 Point System which have some changes which do not automatically place them in the Modified judging and apparently disqualify them for other classes, so they might end up in the Modified Class as a result. "Day Two" Restoration orientations were mentioned. In reality, these were really more like "Day 30" or "After the first oil change" items, to me. Things that were done later that would not compromise the new vehicle factory warranty. Adding a tachometer and gauges might wait a few weeks to ensure what the factory did was holding up well, for example. Adding dual exhausts and/or a larger carburetor would need to wait until after the factory warranty was completed, lest it be voided and needed. A different wheel/tire combination might wait until tires were needing replacement, for example, rather than sooner. I can see where these could be "Day Two", but usually not, although that is how they are termed for restoration purposes. Using non-OEM used interior fabrics/vinyls was mentioned, too. In doing these alterations, it would be hoped that the highest degree of execution was striven-for, rather than not. End result would be that the vehicle is more pleasant to drive on trips and other excursions. When the Driven Class was originally proposed at the General Membership Meeting at the 1999 BCA National Meet in Kokomo, it was my understanding that such vehicles would find a place in the Driven Class. As the Driven Class ended up being implemented, it was more like a 400 Point System class that was not specifically a 400 Point System class. Not allowing alternators in place of generators, for example. Or even adding aftermarket air conditioning. I heard of these things a few years later at the first BCA National Meet the Driven Class was first operative at. When our North Texas Chapter hosted our first BCA National Meet in Plano, TX, at that time, a hot topic was allowing halogen headlights in the 400 Point System judged class as a "no-deduction" situation. It was quite by accident that I discovered why they should not be allowed, although other clube allowed them. I heard Val Ingram state, as a part of a discussion, that (paraphrased), The BCA was the ultimate Buick car group and cars at its shows should be judged to a standard of "End of the Assembly Line", correct for the model year of the vehicle. Which is how the 400 Point System should be oriented. When I heard that statement, it made perfect sense to me that halogen headlights, like radial tires should not be allowed on vehicles they could not have been factory equipment on from the factory (not dealer-installed prior to the purchase of the vehicle). Back to the mention of "changes in judging", in The BUGLE . . . For vehicles with modifications not to the level of the vehicles not being put in the Modified Class . . . I would propose that the Driven Class be expanded to allow for previously non-allowed items AND also be split into "Driven Display" and "Driven Judged". Leaving the Archival Class to be the driven, patina'd, and more correct vehicles in the non-400 Point System judging. I would also propose that "Driven Display" could also include Modified vehicles which are not judged, unless a "General Display" or "Car Corral" designation is available at the national meet. As to the Driven Class, there would need to be some criteria for participation in that class, at either level. One would be a wheel diameter which aligns with what was factory-available on the car when new. Factory wheels not required, although welcomed, but of the OEM wheel diameter only. The INTENT of the owner would be to maintain the vehicle "as stock", but with some changes. To large would be "Modified". Keeping "chrome" to an appropriate minimum, mimicking what the factory had available, for example. Too much would be "Modified". "Level of Execution" would be KEY in these changes. Different upholstery fabrics/vinyls than stock, sewn in the same general pattern. Fine. Aftermarket seats, that's "Modified". "Used car lot-ized" bench seats, not good. A comprehensive list if changes could be formulated to determine when a Driven vehicle would need to become a Modified vehicle, too. In the powertrain realm of things, replacing the stock automatic transmission with a more modern 3-speed automatic, or even a later 8-speed automatic, with needed driveline changes, would be possible provided other aspects of the Driven Class were adhered to. Similar with modern-style EFI, or perhaps such EFI vehicles could be in a sub-class of Driven. NO deductions for rock chips, bug splatters, or "use degraded" bright trim. I wanted to make this posting to ensure BCA and other car club members might learn of the proposals mentioned in "The BUGLE", with some comments on this subject. Solutions rather than otherwise. Perhaps it can become a "sticky" at the top of the page? Just some thoughts, Willis Bell 20811

A "GT"? My definition of "Grand Touring" is a vehicle that has better brakes, handling, road manners, and power above what a normal vehicle might have. Those Rivieras had style, comfort, smooooth performance, and good fuel economy. "GT" of a different orientation? NTX5467

It might be unusual for the lamp harness grounds (one on each side, for each corner) to both be bad, but check for general principles.

Glad things are progressing! Rather than Town Cars, you can also investigate 2005 Impalas and LeSabres. Pretty inexpensive to operate and repair. Just passed 300K on the Impala (with one GM reman transaxle, which could have been avoided with a pressure switch group change). In my driving, Michelins last about 90K miles or so. The LeSabre, being related to the DeVille/DTS platform, is smoother and quieter. Being mine is a Limited and was a Hertz rent-a-car from Hawaii, it has everything except 16" tires/wheels. The RainSense wipers are neat, once you figure out their programs. Mine has leather, too. Prices on these cars are still very reasonable for what is received. Estate or pre-Estate sales can be placed to find them. A former work associate was a retired Police Chief near Rowlett. He said that Ford approached them to take their Crown Vics back, completely refurbish/rebuild them (engine, trans, axles, etc) for $10K each. He said that was a real no-brainer! And it worked as they said it would. Which explained why we saw Crown Vics around for years after they were out of production! Enjoy! NTX5467

If I wanted to go to the dealer, I would have to make an appointment (sometimes two weeks in advance!). At Valvoline, I can drive up without such. Might have to wait for others in front to get finished, though, which is fine. If I see two cars already there, I can come back later. They also want to check tire pressures (on a hot tire), battery, wiper blades, and such. I decline those things as if they were not good, I could not have gotten there. I also suspect the "workers" might change from time to time, too. I feel their products are a bit higher-priced, but that is to be expected, which is the reason for the discount coupons. I know what oil costs at WalMart, plus a filter, too. Then figure in the hassle of dealing with the old oil and such. With the discount, it all works for me. If they wree not there, I'd either be at Firestone, Goodyear, or a private shop that does oil changes (mostly). Plus later formulations of their oil are supposed to have more Moly in them, compared to other brands and earlier times. The engines sound better on it than the GM oil that used to be in them. Whatever works, NTX5467

I understand the reason for desiring to find the OEM harnesses for these things. What might be questioned is just how well they have aged? Related to the integrity of the connections of the wiring and terminals, specifically. Wiring might not degrade very fast, though, but without the terminal/wiring interface not being soldered, might those interfaces possibly develope added resistance with time? If the correct insulator colors of the respective wires can be obtained, in the correct (or slightly more robust) gauges, plus correct solderless terminals, maybe even the insulators for such, might a better result be obtained by producing it yourself? Or by another "engaged individual"? With these things "done", then you can proceed with other projects, it would seem. Especially with the next "car season" or activities quickly arriving? Just some thoughts, NTX5467

When I got my first fwd car (a 2000 Impala in 2007 or so), that was "new territory" so I started going to a Firestone place a friend and former parts customer was running. That was good, even if i was not a fan of the oil brand they used. I figured it was "good enough". Later, gravitated back to the dealership I worked at. As I neared retirement, I gravitated toward a new Valvoline Oil Change location in town. They had a $15.00 coupon on the back of some Albertson's and WalMart cash register receipts, which put things at $55.00 for their mid-level oil change (Valv High-Mileage "red bottle" oil). That still works. Then I started to get discount cards from them in the mail. I later discovered they also have AARP discounts. Looks like that's where I'll stay for a while. They have a set procedure to do their oil changes. With the main person calling out the filter number and oil to the person below. Plus the amount of torque for the drain plug. Seems to work well. Last time I was in, they somehow got the impression it was time for a new air filter element, although I had not approved such OR was asked about it. I let them do it anyway as it had been a while. One of the top-side guys was excited that underhood, my car was similar to his later-model Impala. So I figured he knew how to take things apart. Things were good. The car ran better, yet after decelerating down the off-ramp, the engine stopped, but quickly re-started. Seems he did not get the rubber duct seated all the say onto the throttle body. Hence, less air going through the mass air flow sensor. Engine thought it had stopped when it didn't. I decoded the code and then discovered what had happened. I repositioned the duct so all air went through the MAF and all was great again. KEY thing is that you have to know the limitations of which ever repair shop you might choose to use. Not being the guinea pig for their learning curve. Now as always. Valvoline seem to get around some of this with "procedures" rather than otherwise. Enjoy! NTX5467

Was just remembering how some oil changers used to screw the filters on so tight that an air ratchet was needed to remove them, rather than oil the rubber gasket and then tighten the filter the additional 1/2-3/4 turn past contact to tighten them. When I started doing my own oil changes, I bought the band wrench our service station guy used with no issues. Didn't work for me. Ended up stabbing the filter with a screwdriver several times before it broke loose. Got a good end-cap wrench after that! But normally, you wouldn't be doing an oil filter change on the side of the road. Enjoy! NTX5467

Going to continue to do so?

Can you find one for a '80 Riv with an Olds 307 in it? Probably might not make any difference, though. NTX5467

Do your own oil changes, too?

I hope your Dad's last days are enjoyable for all. Mechanically, other than the powertrain, the car is a 2-dr version of the Olds Aurora. Same platform. Olds didn't like to admit that, back then. Plug-ins on the back of the radio? On top of the radio case, there is a wiring notation of which wires go where. There is a single wire which runs the memory in the radio, which is hot all of the time. "Clock memory". To me, the issues with the radio sound like dirty switches that stick. At one time, the Buick stereos ran the steering wheel control volume with an apparent servo motor in the radio, which physically turned the volume knob, up or down. I think yours might be a bit newer than that. Is there evidence of somebody molesting the wiring before y'all got it? Bad thing is that GM went Internet-based on their service manuals in the 1990s, but you might check with Helm, Inc. to see if they might have some paper versions with wiring schematics. Using Google searches for the issues mentioned might help too. On some of the Buicks back then, the "upgrade suspension" amounted to stiffer-sidewal Eagle GT tires and a bit larger sway bars. The stiffer tires got the valving in the struts activated quicker for a bit firmer feel. KYBs can be a cost-effective choice and be about 20% stiffer than OEM. Get the complete strut/spring versions. Wet-sanding is a lot of work! Use a good, fine compound with an orbital buffer instead. Do NOT want to cut through the clearcoat! A clay bar might help, too. Then some quality wax to finish things off. Value? Unfortunately many Rivieras, once they got past their initial "used car" stage, don't have the book value it seems they should. Good if you are buying, otherwise if you desire to sell. BTAIM The "good thing" is that depreciation has already happened, so you've got some classy wheels that will retain what value it has if you take care of it and keep it looking nice. Hope this might help, NTX5467

Which THEN means the stud and lug nut are now "prevailing torque", all of a sudden WITHOUT paying extra for such. Most of the service station guys I knew, back then, knew full well the FOLLY of having an air ratchet set to that level. Choosing, instead, to dial things back to prevent damage from an inexperienced user that might end up using them. Better to wait for the ratcheting action to start to move things than to force it with higher torques. Even so, sometimes the lug nuts were too hot to comfortably hold. With all due respect, NTX5467

Thanks for that link! Neat how things happen, sometimes. I really enjoyed the interview at the end. NTX5467

Did the anti-seize take the squeak out? Seems like all of the thread torque specs I've seen have mentioned "lightly-lubed threads", with motor oil? Ever feel the heat in the wheel stud where the nut came off slowly with an impact? Or the heat in a lug nut that is too hot to hold? NTX5467

The A6 compressors were famous for their oil trails on the underside of hoods (and hood pads). I always found that curious as none of our other-brand of cars did that. Seems like a newer version of that seal does not leave the trail? In 1971 or so, Buick had a metal shield that went over the pulley/belt to catch the oil being slung out before it got to the hood. Something like that could be fabbed, if desired. Bolts to the existing holes on the front flange. Might take a bit more with an A5, though. NTX5467

NOW we know why the engine was in the trunk, apart. As I recall, at about 65K, IF the engine had not gotten the best of care (as to timely oil changes and such), that's when the bearing issues started to appear. As prevalent as that engine was back then, many auto supplies kept the crank kit (crank and bearings) in stock. At least in the larger areas. It was always the middle main bearing where the problems were. For the reasons I mentioned above. So the engine got removed, torn down, then "archived" when the wear issues were known. Being where you are located, that was probably the easiest thing to do. Balancing? Not if the pistons are still the stock pistons and the casting numbers on the cranks match. Aftermarket pistons are usually a little heavier than the stock pistons, so that is when balancing is recommended. Which is one advantage to using OEM parts rather than aftermarket. GM pistons were the same weight from std size to +.030" over-size. But the OEM pistons were like $60.00/each compared to $15.00 for the good aftermarket ones. As to shipping, IF you want anything heavy shipped individually, I have no doubt the shipping charges can be what you mention. IF you can find a "freight consolidator", they can add it to an existing container they have coming your way, which might result in lower shipping costs. There are a lot of USA cars in EU. Networking with some of them might yield a better way to get something like a crankshaft shipped to EU. A Chrysler group might be contacted via www.bbtr.de . Plus various USA-brand and mixed-brand car clubs, too. Hopefully, somebody might have a connection. Thanks for the additional information, NTX5467

You're right, now that I think about it.

In the states, 15W-40 was the dino oil for things like GM Duramax diesel pickup trucks. That viscosity was specific to diesels only. When syn oils for the diesels came out, they were 5W-40 instead. Another diesel-specific viscosity. As things have progressed, 15W-40 can be had in syn, too. As 5W-40 oils have other non-diesel applications in cars and the current SP ratings. THEN came "Rotella Gas Truck" oil which is for pickup trucks with gas engines. Same oil specs, as to zddp, as "car oils", from the analysis I have seen posted at www.bobistheoilguy.com . NTX5467

"Happy Endings" getting better! NTX5467

The 3800 should be an "even-fire" with off-set rod journals. The 231 has normal rod journals. It is possible to rebuild the journals by welding new material onto them, then machining them to the desired size. I don't know how expensive it might be to do that, compared to what a new GM crank might cost. OR a reman engine, for that matter. One thing I've noticed about Jasper kits is that they come with everything you'd need to change the motor. Belts, hoses, and such. WITH a higher pricetag, too. They also have a chain of approved shops to do the engine changes, too, which gives them the confidence to have the warranty coverage they do. I did a Google search and came up with a good many possibilities. A few crankshaft "kits" (re-ground stock cranks with new matching size bearings) for about $350.00 + 150.00 core charge. Close to the price of a new SCAT stroker crank. You need a cranks with the same stroke as you now have. The interesting item was a new GM Crank on Amazon for less than $200.00. Of course, you'll need to get new bearings with that one, but it had a current GM part number so it might be that your machine shop operative could get that one and bearings for a good price. Knowing these things, the question is "What kind of condition is the rest of the motor in? How many miles and such?" IF you plan on keeping the car for 5+ years, it might be best to find a quality reman motor and fix a lot of other things in the process, too. You can probably find a nearby Jasper installer shop near you via their website. Then contact them to see what the turn-key price would be, plus any additional price for the worn crankshaft. I would advise against a salvage yard motor as anything you find there, for your model year, can very well be in worse shape than the one you have now. Plus it will probably have been "sitting there" for years, which can cause issues because of that, too. Which means anything you might buy will be as a "buildable core", but given the track record of those engines, you would be spending money for another engine that needs to be rebuilt, at best. Do the Google search for "Buick 1980 231 V-6 Crankshaft" and see what comes up. If that GM Parts crank is what it's supposed to be, that would be the best choice and put some OEM quality bearings with it in the correct size (which means verify the size of the journals before getting the bearings). Then a reman crank from a quality crank grinder company with the bearings, buying it out-right with no core. Or a new crank of the correct stroke via Summit Racing (which was one of the items from the search). eBay vendors? I respectfully advise to not go there as you never really know what you will be getting, sometimes. Use that as a last resort of sorts. Hope this might help, NTX5467

$8200.00 at 10:55pm CDST 03-21-2024. Car looks great!

Since this thread started, MUCH has changed in the world of motor oil. Mr. Lake Speed, Jr. has mentioned the different type of zddp and their uses. Something to do with how soon they activate? I respect his tribologist certification, yet I have not heard of different types of zddp in the www.bobistheoilguy.com forums in the decades I've been checking the "Virgin Oil Analysis" forums there. I also consider him a "somewhat interested" person as he was employed by a motor oil company which brought out a particular line of oils. So I take what he says as "good information to be further verified". In looking at some of the older oil analysis tests online, it appears that the presumption that all oils of prior times had lots of zddp in them is not completely accurate, in all cases. The amounts could vary by brand. In those earlier times, the detergency of the oil was deemed to be more important. "Long chain" Pennsylvania crude oil was supposed to be better than other crude oils, as to "protection", but past that, it was the additive package that made things work. In the later 1960s, as chemistry progressed, wider-range viscosity oils appeared. 10W-40s and 20W-50s appeared in several brands. The higher-viscosity multi-grades were termed "Super Oils" for their advanced chemistry. Nobody cared if the "50" meant more horserpower was needed to run the oil pump, back then. In the 1980s, a mechanic shop we sold GM parts to called up and wanted a crank for a '75 Pontiac 400 V8. Seems it had about 60K miles and a loud main bearing knock. The owner changed the oil to 20W-50 and added 2 cans of STP to the oil to thicken it and hopefully quieten things down. Well, with the thick oil, things got louder. In looking at engine clearances, the typical piston skirt clearances on modern engines are not very different from 1960s engines. Same with crankshaft bearings. EACH has a clearance based on the size of the piston or bearing journal. Nothing "tightened up" on modern engines, as might be suspected. What HAS changed is the cylinder honing procedures, width of the piston rings, and everything now has "coated" piston skirts. Much of this is about taking friction out of the motor, which means more horsepower can get to the flywheel. Lighter viscosity oils are about taking less power to run the oil pump PLUS getting oil "to pressure" and "where it needs to be", about 40% sooner on a cold start. Plus less power to run the oil pump. More power and better fuel economy can result. Quicker-acting VVT and cyl deactivation activities are probably expedited, too. On the older motors, the oil pump and oil pickup tube/screen were very close to each other. Oil pressure happened very quickly with a straight-weight "30" motor oil. On almost every modern design, the screen/pickup is at the rear of the motor and the oil pump is on the nose of the crankshaft, almost 2 feet away! GOT to have quick-flowiing oil for decent longevity! BGack to the zddp issue . . . ONE thing to also consider is that in the 1960s, normal oil change intervals were 3000miles, until Ford lengthened theirs to 6000 miles. Chrysler had their engines set at 4000 miles. In times before we knew about zddp. Basestocks of oils were not as good then as now, obviously. Drag racers usually changed their oil sooner, anyway, to keep the engines lasting a good while. So the BRAND of oil was important for any kind of high-performance use. Plus camshafts with higher lift and higher spring pressures were more aftermarket than OEM prior to about 1962. In those days, the average customer had brand preferences, for whatever reason. One criteria had to do with how "clean" the engine was when valve cover gaskets had to be replaced and such. "Cleaner" was better, then as now. Valvoline had been sponsoring drag racing events for years, back then. I came to notice that many "old-time" hot rodders and such generally used Valvoline motor oil. I realized this in the 1980s. In some of the forum postings/discussions of zddp levels in www.bobistheoilguy.com forums, just adding zddp to any formulation is not always the best answer. The additional zddp, past a certain point, degrades the detergency additives in the oil. Certainly, some oils designed for NASCAR racing had 3000ppm zddp in them, but they were also not recommended for street use. Those engines got an oil change every 500 miles or so anyway, so detergency was not an issue. More is not better. API "SL" oils had 1000ppm of zddp in them. The later "SM" oils were down to 800ppm zddp or less. The more recent "SP" oils are up to 900ppm zddp, plus a testing wear spec related to the wear on timing chain pins. Plus a different balance of calcium and others to allow the zddp to work better (according to Mr. Speed, Jr.) at the lower concentrations. Zddp is usually talked about with respect to cam lobe wear, but it also related to engine bearing wear, too. In normal use, every one of the vintage engine designs were designed to use a "30" viscosity oil in 70 degree F ambient temperatures, down to 32 degrees F in colder times. Colder than that? 20W and even 10W oils. The common multi-weight in the 1960s was 10W-30. Many allegedly ended up as 10W-20 after 1000+ miles, but they still worked well. 10W-40 happened with the elevated operating temperatures of 1970s emission-controlled engines. 20W-50 was there for additional protection in more severe operating situations. The current Valvoline VR-1 oils, in any viscosity, are stated to have 1400ppm zddp in them, per Valvoline's product literature. Same with the Amsoil Z-Rod oil, which is synthetic. Castrol has a "GTX Classic" motor oil with similar zddp amounts ("Classic" is prominent on the bottle!). Used to be that the 1000ppm zddp was the "low standard", but testing by GM indicated that the "SM" oil would work in their high-performance ZZ430 big block engines, per the installation instructions. Which means that the engine had been "fire tested" before it left the engine plant and "run-in" for 30 minutes in a dyno cell. These things tend to follow my suspicion that current "SP" oils with their decreased calcium content (due to issues in modern turbo 4-cyl engines and high-calcium oils), at about 900ppm zddp, can be fine with many older engines. AFTER the cam is fully broken-in if changed. As mentioned, this subject can have as many answers as there can be the number of people answering them. Still going well past when the cows have gone to sleep. Do your best research and act accordingly. The back of the Mobil 1 website has a chart of the zddp level in each of their motor oiol products. Kind of hard to find, but it's there AND current. Valvoline also had information in their Product Data Sheets, on their website. Other brands can be similar, but not always. Remember, too, that it is the OEMs and "current production vehicles" which the oil manufacturers have to be concerned about rather than just a small segment of the total market. BTAIM Otherwise, the www.bobistheoilguy.com forums or PQIA forums can be two great sources where oil analysis is done and results posted. Whatever works! NTX5467

California had "retro-fit kits" for cars registered and residing in CA back then. Until the manufacturers started selling "CA Emissions" vehicles in the middle 1960s. MIGHT have been some chrome air cleaners for the 2x4bbl cars? Otherwise, silver/aluminum paint. Some did not like the open breathers as they could put oil drops on the area under them (valve covers). Which might be what a prior owner had done? It is much easier to find chrome items for Chevrolet motors than for any other GM brand of engine. Just the way it always has been. NTX5467