Beemon

The only thing I can think of is that if the shut off switch is not grounded, then there is no ground for the current to flow to after the battery is cut out of the system. This theoretically would keep the electrons excited until they did find a path to ground (on your amp).

Short answer is the system was engineered for your car. The long answer is comparing the bore of the master cylinder to the bore of a modern unit (vacuum booster is irrelevant) and then using Bernoulli's principle to find the correct pressure differential across all four wheel cylinders to achieve a similar or better braking scenario. Not to mention your pedal ratio needs to be at least 4:1 in terms of where it's hung on the firewall. Then there's the matter of running new lines to the front and back. You also need to have adequate space since today's vacuum boosters are larger and the master cylinders are dual stage, single circuit units that are almost twice the length. Custom bracketry will be needed and holes will most likely need to be drilled. More trouble than it's worth and the suppliers won't know any of this. They sell generic cookie cutter kits that have all the same equipment for all cars, so it may work better on a different car than yours and vice versa. You're lucky that 1957 went to the master cylinder on the firewall, though.

Terminals #3 and #4 would be obsolete with a push button as they open and close the contacts in the relay (now performed by your finger). The only reason I could see it spliced into the voltage regulator is if they took #3 terminal and grounded the switch with it, just like the relay, so the starter shuts off whether you have your finger on the button or not. Do you have any pictures of the switch and wiring? If there is an issue with the system that pops up, it's most likely the starter relay as it's the only component in the system being bypassed. You already checked the carburetor switch to be good, the shop manual details how you can check and calibrate the starter relay. I'm curious because no mention was made prior, but did you pull the starter switch off the carb or just check the terminals?

For people that have been restoring and enjoying these vehicles for many years, it might come as a shock when the industry finally winds down and starts focusing on more modern vintage vehicles, such as 70s-80s. For me, who just started around 2010 and didn't pick up any speed until 2015, it's been really painful because the information that was around 20 or so years ago is very scarce now. I owe these forums a great deal of gratitude, countless hours using the search feature, staying up late trying to find threads that date back to even 2005 on issues that are similar to mine. The only difference being that a part 10 years ago or more that was once referenced, or for example, a part number for a new starter relay that is now obsolete, doesn't exist. I wish I could have gotten started on my Buick years ago because it must have been easier 10 years ago, but then I would have only been 14. Chevy/Mopar/Ford have it easy for the abundance of bolt-in accessories and components which probably won't go away, but for everything else there is next to nothing and slowly dwindling. And at what point due the unfortunate circumstance of many people who hold knowledge or operate business eventually pass in 20 or 30 years from now, thus leaving a generation that has no interest? Or when there's no such thing as NOS parts or they become so rare that it will cost you $400 for a 2 barrel air cleaner? It's already there with some parts, just the unfortunate future of the classic car industry. Everyone wants to keep their cars 100% stock or at least 98%, but there will come a time where it won't be possible anymore.

I'm surprised the stuff from Centerville didn't fit, they're supposed to be the number one for hot rod Buicks. But then again, I've been ripped off plenty by the big "number ones"... Mandrel bent dual exhaust that required a month wait with a $500 deposit only to drop it off and on the third day I get a call they just ordered materials after reserving a month out, went somewhere else after they told me my car wasnt worth anything (body is missing half the paint)... Had my pump and steering gear rebuilt by Lares, bearing assembled incorrectly on the pump shaft and ate the back side of my pulley that caused it to wobble and erode both the woodruff key and shaft itself, not to mention the gear box has excessive play and is considered dangerous at any speed above 40mph... replaced pump with a rusty old junkyard piece... Or when I had my distributor out for "rebuild" and they recurved it to a Chevy engine without telling me and I could never figure out why I kept having an idle hunt around 600 rpm and could never get it to sit right. ... Also pulled a junkyard piece for that. Or having a carb rebuilt by three different outfits that still didn't work properly. .... the list goes on. No honesty from any suppliers I've dealt with, so I learned my lesson of "do it yourself because no one else cares". The "close enough" or "rebuild just means new seals" mentality is rampant.

Aluminum drums, but that requires modification of your backing plates, you need a shim to adapt the different hubs. You could also try and find 2.5" drums, shoes and backing plates off of a Roadmaster.

It's a distribution block. You need to look for a cut away in the Brakes section of your shop manual and do some research or whether or not it has a pressure residual valve. No aftermarket replacements, however that does not mean you can't buy an aftermarket distribution block. Note that I did not say proportioning block - that is because drum/drum applications are proportioned based on the wheel cylinder diameter. It's not something you should play with, as it is very unforgiving to try and get everything right... don't ask me how I know. If it were me, I would remove the block, put a wrench on it, a socket over the switch and break the two apart. Once apart, soak completely in some type of cleaning solvent and blow out to get rid of all the old gunk in there. While your lines are busted, might be a good time to do the whole car since they look pretty original in there. I know this isn't a brakes thread, but now that the lines are exposed, you really should inspect wheel cylinders, master, etc. Your brake light switch could be fine, you might not be getting enough pressure due to old seals in the wheel cylinders, rust blockage in the lines, etc. You never know until you get in there yourself.

Self adjusting brakes Part 2: I forgot to mention, the nails in the spring kits are marked "8" but the originals are marked "4". The 8 is also smaller than the 4, which makes sense because the rears on the donor cars were only 2" pads and not 2 1/4" pads. Part #UP80707, I'll update the OP with this number, too. With more than enough room on the front wheel hubs for the adjuster. When I pulled the original manual adjuster off, I dialed in the auto adjuster to about the same length before re-assembly. I also forgot to take a pic of lubricating the rear backing plates, but I just sprayed some white lithium grease on the pressure points to avoid squeaks. I picked up a caliper like the one Willie posted and it was pretty close, only a minor adjustment to get it where it needed to be. Buttoned everything back up, backed out of the driveway somewhat aggressively and nailed the brakes... pretty interesting experience when you can feel them do the fine adjustments! I did a couple of quick reverse stops on the neighborhood drive just to make sure they were seated in and then went for a drive. Pedal response was faster and the pedal was higher as it didn't take as much to get the brakes to energize when finely tuned. Overall though, besides the higher pedal, there was obviously no difference in braking. I was able to put more pressure on the brakes because of the higher pedal, but that was the only difference I really noticed. Ease of application and not having to worry about adjustments in the long term was the ultimate goal from the beginning. Measures should be taken to check the pads bi-anually, or sooner depending on pad life.

Shop manual says the 53 and 51 are both for 1956 Buick. You can find the correct 35 amp voltage regulator at NAPA under part number VR126 instead of the 30 amp VR122.

Wow and I thought I was ripped off by the Washington Department of Licensing when applying for lost title, registration and licensing. I hope your case is resolved soon! '41, '53 and '56 are my three favorite pre-60s Buick years (I am a bit biased, my grandfather owned and drove all three). A shame they're giving you a run around for $11,000, that's ridiculous! Maybe there's a lawyer in your car club, too?

A lot of the stuff I do is overly ambitious lol ... at least I know this one will work and be reliable for the life of the vehicle. Is it every 6000 miles? I was told to check them every 1000 miles. It's not that I don't like adjusting the shoes by hand (even though it is), every time I crawl under there I spend more time than I want to because I either go too far or loose track because the tool slips and have to start all over again. The rears aren't an issue but the fronts are right under the king pins and are just more trouble. Also thanks for the link to the calipers. I admit I didn't know such a tool was needed. Before I get too far I'll be sure to check out the shoes again. How I had assembled it was I tightened the adjuster by hand until the drum couldn't slide over the shoes, then loosened it until it wasn't a tight fit but with slight drag. My plan was to see how well it performs for about 100 miles before peeking in there again. It's too bad I could never get the aluminum drums on there. With the modern hubs, it needs to be spaced about a half inch off the back of the spindle and then a quarter inch needs to be shaved from the tips of the backing plates (maybe more) for a snug fit. If/when I buy new front drums, I'll test fit them with the roller hubs.

Just a tech thread as I've just finished doing the swap today. Theoretically you can do this with any 12" Buick drum, but I have not seen anything smaller than 2" shoes. That being said, the 2 1/4" shoes on the 56 goes well above 1968, which is where I pulled the donor equipment from. I only pulled rear equipment off two cars because they did the front adjusters differently than the rears (and all the fronts were missing anyways), but the rears on the 56 are set up the same as the front minus the parking brake. Parts used: NAPA #UP2340 - spring kit readily available NAPA #UP80551 - left side adjuster NAPA #UP80552 - right side adjuster NAPA #UP80762 - adjuster return spring The adjuster arm, steel rod and override arm/spring were re-used from the donor cars as I could not find the part numbers and will be checking known vendors for replacements soon. Still have yet to pull the front drums off as the store didn't have a second spring kit on the shelf, but tomorrow I'll be picking up and pulling the fronts. With only the rears being self adjusted though, I noticed an immediate difference in braking and parking brake function due to the minuscule adjustments these systems accomplish. It really is unfortunate the actual hardware part is not made aftermarket like the 9" Chevy self adjusters. When classes begin on the 19th of September, I was going to stop in the manufacturing department and see what it would take to have replicas made. I don't know if there's a huge demand for it for the pre 1960 Buicks, but the system was obviously very successful to be used for over 10 years until the advent of disc brakes. Needless to say, these 68 Rivieras will live on partially in my 56 Riviera.

Funny you should mention this as I also had talked to the guy a bit at the beginning of the summer. He wanted about $750 for the pulleys if memory serves me right. For that price, I can live without AC lol.

Yes I'm still currently looking for a 4 barrel WCFB.

Only if you replace all the glass. The tint will be close, but not close enough next to the real thing. I guess it also depends on where they get the laminate from, but new laminate versus 60 year laminate is hard to match. At least, in my experience thus far. I've been trying to remedy a similar issue (passenger door) and finally found a piece locally. I can't imagine switching tracks to be difficult, but it's just flat glass so at the very least just swap frames. Probably easier said than done...

If there's one thing I've learned from speaking with Jon (there's been many), both on the telephone and from posts on the forums, is that every carburetor has different sized orifices and passageways engineered specifically for that model year engine. $600 really is a steal for a setup like that, too bad it doesn't come with the bat wing air cleaner. I put this undertaking on the back burner, put the single carb manifold back on the engine with the best of the two carbs and garaged it for the rest of the summer unless I'm going out to a cruise in. I just don't have the tools to drill the passageways with the precision I need. The air horn passages are not lead balls but tapered cylinders and the tiny passageways look to be plugged with small game shot pellets.

Some people may also not like the fact that the throttle blades are open when cranking the engine, or that you have to use the gas pedal in general. If the choke is set properly, the throttle blades being timed to open on start up is irrelevant. Buick was the only car company that I know of that had a less than normal starter system, majority of people who didn't grow up with it or are used to it probably think it's weird or stupid and just re-wire it.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point of me not knowing what I'm talking about or not, but I was referencing the wiring diagram posted above, obviously not the carburetor starter switch, which is not the starter relay...

I've actually been contemplating a swap like this because there is a huge dead zone in my gear box, even after a rebuild. Was there any modification to the steering column? Which brackets went where? I'd be more inclined to use a larger gear box out of a full size car, but anything would be better than my original unit at this point. The gentlemen that owns the yard I get parts from has a 56 Olds and he used a gear box out of a mid 70s full size, but then also sourced the pump that came with the car. He couldn't recall what model it was other than a GM full size.

When the engine fires, the manifold vacuum sucks the ball bearing up into a passageway out of the way from the butterfly shaft so it can never re-engage when depressing the accelerator pedal. Likewise, as pictured above, through the starter relay, the points armature needs to be grounded for the switch to magnetize the armature and pull the contact points into position. When the generator starts charging at engine idle, it shorts the circuit by opening the ground and de-magnetizes the starter relay armature. Since the switch bearing on the carb is now gone, due to engine vacuum, it will never make contact for the wires to back feed on the harness. You just hold the gas pedal down until the generator starts charging and it shuts off for you before you can even take your foot off the pedal. The neutral safety switch also opens the circuit when in Drive so theoretically it shouldn't re-engage while in D because it's just a wire that goes no where at that point. The only time the starter can re-engage during driving is if the contacts in the relay arc and weld together, as in my case, or if the generator is bad and there is poor manifold vacuum at the same time that permits the ball from being pulled into the cut out passage and you're in Neutral or Park for whatever reason. I believe some of the forum members here have converted to alternators and just grounded out the starter relay without issue. I'm not sure how much manifold vacuum is needed to pull the ball out of the way or how much the ball weighs, but they're just a standard 1/2" ball bearing you can get from a local hardware store.

Actually, going through this issue myself just recently, you'll want a 25A fuse to the switch. My new relay has a fuse slot for battery positive and when starting, depending on ambient temp, would blow the 20A but not the 25A. The shop manual, at least for 56, states approx. 18-20A goes through the starting system when cranking. The 20.~ is just enough to blow a normal 20A fuse. Back then, according to my Engineering division head, they didn't sweat decimals much and if it was 20.3A, it was 20A or good enough. Is your starter switch just the two wires with a normal push button? If so, you should just be able to push them back through the firewall and use butt connectors or something to re-attach them to the starter switch.

I wonder why he's getting rid of it... Nailheads are still big in that community.

The 4GC and WCFB should be nearly identical. By difference I meant difference in 322 production years from 1953 to 1956. The AFB pattern of 1957 and later is different. I really pride myself in setting up a clean 2x4 setup I just hate to take it off. But I also don't want an engine fire or any other hazards. The car is grounded for the time being other than a 5 min startup and idle to keep the gas fresh in the bowls. So far I've narrowed down the seeping to the accelerator pump plugs and the big plug behind the accelerator arm. The two on the front of the bowl at the bottom are dry.

I'm at a place in the road that goes four ways in regards to this situation. 1. Disassemble the 4GCs, pull every lead ball and reassemble. 2. Find a WCFB as everyone else with this issue does, lose the dual quads. 3. Mount an E-clone, lose the dual quads. 4. Buy Holleys, keep the dual quads. 3 and 4 I'm advised against doing, but 3 has had success on these forums and others. 2 is the easiest but the WCFB is rare for me locally and nothing online at the moment. To be honest, I don't feel comfortable doing 1. No one else has done it on any forum I've searched. I'm sure it's easy but you're playing with irreplaceable 60 year old parts with machined passageways and I don't want to risk it. Local carb shop said the same thing and the machine shop wants more than an E-clone per carb. As far as I know, both these carbs have never seen ethanol until they were put on my Buick - my first one last year and my second one a few months ago, both seeping. So assuming I make these repairs, who's to say I'll be doing them again in six months? I've never heard of this issue with a WCFB, which is why I've been searching for one. I've only been able to find a 55 with a weird number tag, will have to go back out and check it again but it was also missing the coke arm, and a 53 with a V8. Another yard has a 54 but the owner will only sell the complete engine and not parts. What's the difference between 53, 54, 55 and 56? Would I be able to salvage a choke arm off the 53 and put it onto the 55? Would a 55 WCFB even perform well on a 56 322? I would be more inclined to attempt these repairs to the 4GC if I had a back up but I don't. Yes I have two of them, but then if I pull one I pull both, etc. ...

The gas tank actually grounds to the car from the straps and bolts that it hangs from. If you completely paint all the components, be sure to add a ground wire to the fuel sender! Otherwise, you may or may not get a reading at the fuel gauge.