1912Staver

Sure, no problem . That looks like a very nice Oakland .

I will have it , but it might take a day or two to put my hands on it.

Two of them are quite original. The Roadster in the Owls Head museum and the 1914 touring that belongs to descendants of the Staver family. Both cars were found stored away together from almost new until some time in the early 1940's. Both have been re - painted , but as far as I know never any modifications. The others have modifications. Ed, it's a floor sweepings car to be sure. But I will look through my material and post on a separate thread in the projects section. Might take a while, most of what I have is old fashioned film photo's and my scanner is quite cranky. Teetor Hartley monoblock 4 , 4 1/2 x 5 B&S. Almost the same engine used in the middle size American Underslung Tourist. Mount location on the crankcase casting may be in a slightly different location { unconfirmed }. Same engine also used on some Pilots and for one year on Auburn 40 's. Assembled car, Staver was primarily a carriage and buggy builder. All the mechanicals are bought in.

I agree Ed ! I have looked at 100's of " unidentified " 1912 era touring car / 4 pass. Torpedo { what my car was } photo's and nothing I can identify as a positive, post factory photo. Also searched through all the periodicals that are on line through the HCCA Foundation. Several photos of the cars at various auto shows , but all the same 4 or 5 factory photo's . Pretty sure there were at least 2 made , the 1911 \ 12 Racing Roadster and the slightly revised 1913 / 14 Greyhound. The photo's show enough differences { cowl lights for example } that I am reasonably confident 2 different cars are depicted. But how many actually sold to the public ? , who knows . No one even seems to know how many Stavers of all types were produced. Lowest known serial is #217, highest is # 1613. My car is # 1276. But only 5 known survivors , and all different years and models, so a very small sample size.

I would invite anyone to prove or disprove the correctness any detail about my 1912 Staver Chicago model 40 , Racing Roadster { 1912 } , or the same car renamed by Staver for the 1913 and 14 season Greyhound. Apart from somewhat re- touched, catalog illustrations I have never found a photo of one. Staver cataloged them for 4 years, so I expect at least a dozen or more were produced. But as far as I know no documentation exists , photo or otherwise of one in the hands of an owner. Almost no factory documentation exists apart from the odd letter that turns up from time to time on the bay, and nearly always that has to do with Stavers horse drawn products. Even sales brochures and the like are very rare.

1915 and up Packard are shaft drive. Blaster Mike in New Zealand is working on one of the first . A Model D , one year only truck. Several differences from the more common Model E, shaft drive Packard.

In many cases on very old cars you just are not going to be able to document anything about the car prior to collector ownership. And even then as the decades go by hard facts and documentation are elusive . Even if an early owner took photos, in many cases the photos either have been thrown away or lost by some other means, or the people who have the photos have no idea of the facts behind them. Possibly not even related to the person who took the photos or owned the car. I have a few photos of cars that either my grandfather or other family members took from when my father was a child { born 1934 } but no way of knowing things like serial numbers of the cars to make a 100 % sure linking with a surviving vehicle. People in my family owned cars close to 25 years before my father was born. But as far as I know no photos exist from any of those first family cars. Brass T's and a brass lamp Overland according to my father and grandfather. I doubt any of them still exist. Two of the early T's { and a bunch of later teens / twenties cars } still existed in my great uncles pasture when I was a child in the early 1960's. But when my great uncle passed away in the mid 1970's all the old cars and farm machinery was scrapped by the new owner of the land.

I agree, once Ed bought it its fate was sealed. As he says , his business is at least partially based on selling P.A. parts. Ed wouldn't have been the person to store it long term . I don't know for sure , but I expect he bought the car reasonably recently. I am out of things to say. Once you make old car decisions based on what makes sense from a business point of view I loose interest. To me old cars are how I spend money, not make it. I left that side of things behind me close to 35 years ago. Switched careers to something unrelated to old cars , and let the cars return to the status of hobby once again. One of the things that led to that change was that the friend who I was working for kept doing much as Ed is doing. Taking very rare and desirable , down at the heals cars and parting them out because there was more short term profit. I didn't like it then , and these days my friend really regrets many of part out decisions he made back in our younger days. It only took him about 25 years to see what seemed so obvious to me at the time.

A few points as well, firstly old cars have never become an everyday thing in my life that I take for granted. And I still see the special in a good many old cars. Perhaps not so much Black T's or many closed body Model A's, but yes, many old cars are still very special. If they ever become something I can take or leave without a second thought I will definitely move on to some other interest. I used to love sailing, gave it up to concentrate on old cars. I guess I could quite easily go back to it. In addition I spent 30 years of my career out on the water, it has never lost its hold on me. Secondly , I personally don't want to own a 1937 anything , passenger car , North American production. But even though I am not someone who wants to own one I can still see all the points that make a Pierce Arrow a special car. Finally , regarding my Staver. It was collector owned from at least just after the war. A daunting project , and I am sure some of the past owners were questioning their sanity about keeping it as a project rather than salvaging what they could from it and being done with it. But something about it kept it intact and in fact each owner found a few more parts to add to the pile over the last 75 years it has been collector owned. Like I say, we are just caretakers. Do no harm , and do your best to insure the cars you take under your wing are in a better state when they leave your care then when you bought them. Who knows what might have happened to that P.A. had it stayed tucked away for another 20 years ? Fashions change over time. Perhaps a person would have found it and thought he had stumbled onto King Tutt's treasure trove. Just because no one today wanted to restore it discounts a lot of possibilities. 99.99% of all of our treasured relics were at one point in their existence just an old piece of junk.

With regards to the " put your money where your mouth is " comment , I did just that with my Staver basket case project. A well known collector was contemplating buying it as a parts car for one of his cars { not a Staver } that use Teetor Hartley power. There was enough value in the package to justify the asking price . The engine parts he wanted , plus the value of the rear end { same as a Michigan 40 }, the Warner gear, outside shift, 3 speed selective trans. plus other various brass era parts parts that were part of the package. Only real hold up was transport, the car was close to me , but a long ways away from his location. I had been sitting on the fence for a few months about buying it, but as soon as I heard it was probably going to be bought and broken up for parts I knew it was now or never. Needless to say , it came home with me.

I always default to the notion that we are just the caretakers, great cars transcend the ownership of any individual . I think we can all agree that this Pierce was , and perhaps even could have been once again , a great car. I find it a bit counterintuitive that it made no sense to restore it because it was made with special , extremely high quality woodwork techniques. But yes , at the end of the day it was Ed's car. I like P.A.'s very much, but not to the extent of wanting to own a later 1930's example. Especially one that was located thousands of miles away. And I remain primarily a brass and early Nickle guy. Ashes to ashes, rust to rust

It looked to me the foremost problem on this unfortunate old girl was the wood. See any of Ron Hausmann's Kissel threads to see what a persistent, non - professional woodworker can accomplish. Ron's Gibraltar Sedanette was way worse than this Pierce. Hats off to Ron, his starting point could have easily been judged " too far gone to restore " . But instead a rare and unusual car is still with us.

Just pulling your chain Ed. Although I must admit I was thoroughly amazed by the interest in the Datsun heap. I would be almost as dedicated a pre war guy as you are if there was any more than a handful of them within a substantial distance from where I live. A fair number of black era T's, various Model A's, Dodges, Chevy's, and Plymouths. But very few higher quality pre war cars. And those that do exist are far from my reach. At sale time either they change hands quietly or head South to an Auction. I have only seen a tiny number advertised for sale locally over the decades. Lacking any real chance of buying a middle of the road Brass car or a better quality , somewhat sporty ,Nickle era Stutz, Marmon etc. I have defaulted to what I can actually own. Mostly post war British sports cars. You like the big Classics, I tend much more to Brass and Nickle. I cherished every moment I spent with my friends fathers Model J. A Canadian car from new, but when my friends father died the car was sold at a U.S. auction to a U.S. buyer. The family needed the money , and they felt they would do better at a U.S. sales event. There are a smattering of the cars that make up your stock in trade around here . But they exist in a much different world than what I live in. No sense falling in love with, and pining away over something that only exists thousands of miles away.

Ed, I have a suggestion for you if sales slow down on the Classic PA parts front. Early 1970's Japanese parts cars / light trucks. I have had a 1973 Datsun 620 since the mid 1980's. Paid next to nothing for it , drove it for a few years. Decent little truck, but time caught up with it. It sat in my wife's goat pasture for the 15 years it took for that phase of her life to pass. The goats loved it, sat all over it on nice days. Cleaning up the yard just in case we do move , and was going to load it up and take it in for scrap. But I had the thought that these trucks are somewhat popular with the younger set and it might be worth the time to take a few snaps and put it on Craigslist. The ad wasn't up for an hour before the emails started coming in. By 8:30 last night a person had paid in full without even having much more than a glance at it out in the yard and looking at the CL photo's. Plus 4 more people ready to back their trailers up or call a tow truck for it by lunch time today. Never have I had a response like this for anything I have sold in the past. Early 70's Japanese stuff is red hot around here. And this was just a really beat parts truck , I mean really beat. Apparently parts are worth their weight in gold for these vehicles. All of the other 4 people asked me to give their names and numbers to the guy who bought it so they can try to buy the parts they need from him. Wish I had 5 or 6 more stashed away.

Those really are insane numbers Ed ! 40 - 60 K for chrome wires ? I take it you are talking #6 Buffalo's . I don't even like them in chrome. Apart from many / possibly most Duesenberg's and the odd Motor Show display car , did many O.E.M. Buffalo wheel cars even have chrome wheels when new ? Most of the ones I encounter at swap meets are painted. even more so # 5, and Rudge Whitworth. { teens , 20's, not the 1930's and newer on the RW }

It's a funny quirk of the car hobby. Cars that were for many decades treasured , like Pierce Arrows seem in many cases to not be holding their value against inflation. So despite surviving as potential restoration cars for several decades are like you are suggesting, ending up as salvage. The opposite end are cars like my Lola. If I had a major incident at the track with it and turned it into a ball of aluminum with fiberglass shards as a topping someone would rebuild it around the chassis tag. They are , short of an atomic explosion , proof against not being rebuilt from even the scantest remains. My Lola most certainly is not a F5000, just a Sports 2000, but the same general principal holds true. See the story that is attached to this link. It is remarkable how little of this car survived the fire , never mind how little was re - usablhttps://primotipo.com/2014/06/24/lellas-lola-restoration-of-the-ex-lella-lombardi-lola-t330-chev-hu18-episode-1/e. Someone really , really wanted a F5000 Lola. Lots of people want Sports 2000's. In England the Vintage Sports 2000 series grows in popularity with each passing year. And a Sports 2000 is a much simpler car than a F5000. People are fitting new tub's and bodywork to them regularly.

My series one cars both had the twin carbs here in Canada. Perhaps someone changed the carbs { or possibly even the engine } for a single carb set up . Hillman ? Or possibly even from something like a Sunbeam Rapier ? I believe they used the single carb.

My Staver uses a very similar rear hubcap / drive spider set up . I think the general concept was reasonably common in the 1910 - 1914 era. Luckily both my rear caps are decent. I am missing one front cap however. Quite a bit smaller that the rear , and just a plain face , no Staver name. Makes finding another one very difficult. A year or two older and Staver caps had a very nice cast in logo. But a different rear end and a smaller thread size { on the rear at least }. A Staver logo front may be the same thread size as my front hub thread. But I have not been able to find one yet to try. I do have a Staver logo rear cap. Too small for my rear hub and too large large for my front. I expect the Staver logo hub caps are as popular and high priced with hub cap collectors ,as Staver radiator badges are with badge collectors. Staver used at least 4 different rear ends and I expect they all took a different size hub cap.

I wasn't moaning about the Canadian $ in regards to what I can personally buy in the U.S. marketplace. I recognized and accepted my reduced buying power decades ago and have accepted it. But it is a significant factor in the gradual movement of Canadian vintage car to U.S. owners. Apples to apples , the $ puts Canadian buyers at a notable disadvantage when attempting to buy Canadian vintage cars. Fewer local hobby cars, smaller overall car hobby. It hurts us from aspects as varied as Club survival to relations of the hobby with Government to local businesses either working on hobby cars or supplying parts.

Bill , I agree completely. Certainly there are cars more worth saving on the market. However my point about paying over a decade or two as opposed to paying most of the total cost up front still stands. Probably anyone who has to worry about the cost should look for a different pastime. Even Ed states that a decent condition, running example of one of these cars is a 65 - 85 K, $ U.S.D. proposition. How many of us are really in a position to spend that much all at once ? There used to be room for relatively average means people to participate in the hobby. In most cases not with a Pierce, but Ed says this car could have been bought for under $10,000.00, not a rich man only need apply price. Obviously Pebble and similar, has always been for the very well healed only since the beginning. But not every PA needs to be a PB quality car. Perhaps it's clocks and post war MG's till the end for me after all. And possibly a few laps in my Lola if I get lucky on the pools.

I had a pair of them in the 1970's as well. A rusty 61 that had a decent engine , bought for $100.00 and sold as scrap. And a decent 62 bought with a blown engine for $200.00. Did the engine swap and added wire wheels from one near me being broken for parts. Drove it for a time. Sold for around $400.00 so I could afford a 1965 MGB.

Walt , I whole heartedly agree. A occasional drive in someone else's car can work wonders when things bog down. Unfortunately, some of live in the relative back waters of the old car world. Look at P. Findlay's thread of the old cars of British Columbia. A good number of the cars he and others featured in that thread are now either not in this area or in a museum / black hole collection sort of situation. Only a relatively small number in general regular use. And I only know a small handful of the owners personally. Like I have said before , there is a lot of interest in old cars in this area, but relatively few cars. And due to the crap Canadian $ and very high cost of living around here things are getting worse not better over time. Peter did very generously give my wife and I a back seat ride in his Cadillac a few years ago . As did Bill Trant in his Buick model 17 around the same time. Peter even let me drive the Cadillac for several miles. A treat beyond words ! Some day I sure hope I have a running , driving vintage car of my own. But it has been a very up hill struggle so far. And in some ways I have been my own worst enemy as I also have been involved with old British sports cars and small bore British racing cars in parallel competition for my ever fewer disposable $ over the decades. Realistically I need to get the Vintage racing bug out of my system before a running vintage car is a possibility. But vintage racing has also been a bucket list item since I was in my 20's. So one thing at a time to maintain my sanity and my wife's support. My interest in vintage cars remains as strong as ever . And this forum is great in keeping vintage car prominently in my mind. It's about the only vintage car outlet I have had during the covid shut down.

I know Ed disagrees, and his reasons do hold water in a strictly logical way of looking at things. But I still maintain that a number of people not on the Eastern Seaboard would consider cars in this condition very restorable. It's a big world. When you see what people in England, Europe, Down Under and even way out here in Western Canada take on , cars like this almost fall into the " easy restoration " category. It's intact. all there , or at least very close, it's a well respected and reasonably well supported maker and therefore has a lot more going for it than what many non East Coast restorers are starting with. As fewer and fewer of these cars exist , the further and further the hobby moves from the reach of middle income and lower people. Sure it would be cheaper in the long run to just go out and buy a better one. But for a good number of people, spreading the overall cost over a 20 or 25 year restoration is the only way it can be done. Even if at the end it costs more in total. Not everyone is in a position to go out and spend $25 - 40 K all at once , but $3000.00 - $5,000.00 / year over 20 years opens up the hobby to a much larger group of people. Maintaining the attitude that you MUST go out and buy a good condition car right off the bat or you will loose your shirt, be underwater etc. means that in the near future almost no one but the very well off will even think about owning a stock condition , Pre War car. Even more so if it is a CCCA car. Finally, as many have pointed out in the past. They don't all have to restored to Pebble Beach quality. Sure, you can spend $200,000.00 on a restoration, but many do it on a much lower budget.

Yes, all pressings. But heavy gauge steel, and built to last ! It's a style of construction I have not seen before. I wonder if White cars are similar ? I have a few teens mufflers in my parts pile. And all of them are like you say, cast ends , tubular steel inner and outer sleeves, and through bolts holding it all together.

How do you get a Title for ANY car built before Titles existed ? There is probably a process in existence in every State. And it was probably written into law at the time Titles were introduced in each particular State. Does not mean it is an easy process, but most likely with persistence and $ can almost always be accomplished except in States where cars older than a certain year are not issued titles.