1912Staver

Just pulling your chain Ed. Although I must admit I was thoroughly amazed by the interest in the Datsun heap. I would be almost as dedicated a pre war guy as you are if there was any more than a handful of them within a substantial distance from where I live. A fair number of black era T's, various Model A's, Dodges, Chevy's, and Plymouths. But very few higher quality pre war cars. And those that do exist are far from my reach. At sale time either they change hands quietly or head South to an Auction. I have only seen a tiny number advertised for sale locally over the decades. Lacking any real chance of buying a middle of the road Brass car or a better quality , somewhat sporty ,Nickle era Stutz, Marmon etc. I have defaulted to what I can actually own. Mostly post war British sports cars. You like the big Classics, I tend much more to Brass and Nickle. I cherished every moment I spent with my friends fathers Model J. A Canadian car from new, but when my friends father died the car was sold at a U.S. auction to a U.S. buyer. The family needed the money , and they felt they would do better at a U.S. sales event. There are a smattering of the cars that make up your stock in trade around here . But they exist in a much different world than what I live in. No sense falling in love with, and pining away over something that only exists thousands of miles away.

Ed, I have a suggestion for you if sales slow down on the Classic PA parts front. Early 1970's Japanese parts cars / light trucks. I have had a 1973 Datsun 620 since the mid 1980's. Paid next to nothing for it , drove it for a few years. Decent little truck, but time caught up with it. It sat in my wife's goat pasture for the 15 years it took for that phase of her life to pass. The goats loved it, sat all over it on nice days. Cleaning up the yard just in case we do move , and was going to load it up and take it in for scrap. But I had the thought that these trucks are somewhat popular with the younger set and it might be worth the time to take a few snaps and put it on Craigslist. The ad wasn't up for an hour before the emails started coming in. By 8:30 last night a person had paid in full without even having much more than a glance at it out in the yard and looking at the CL photo's. Plus 4 more people ready to back their trailers up or call a tow truck for it by lunch time today. Never have I had a response like this for anything I have sold in the past. Early 70's Japanese stuff is red hot around here. And this was just a really beat parts truck , I mean really beat. Apparently parts are worth their weight in gold for these vehicles. All of the other 4 people asked me to give their names and numbers to the guy who bought it so they can try to buy the parts they need from him. Wish I had 5 or 6 more stashed away.

Those really are insane numbers Ed ! 40 - 60 K for chrome wires ? I take it you are talking #6 Buffalo's . I don't even like them in chrome. Apart from many / possibly most Duesenberg's and the odd Motor Show display car , did many O.E.M. Buffalo wheel cars even have chrome wheels when new ? Most of the ones I encounter at swap meets are painted. even more so # 5, and Rudge Whitworth. { teens , 20's, not the 1930's and newer on the RW }

It's a funny quirk of the car hobby. Cars that were for many decades treasured , like Pierce Arrows seem in many cases to not be holding their value against inflation. So despite surviving as potential restoration cars for several decades are like you are suggesting, ending up as salvage. The opposite end are cars like my Lola. If I had a major incident at the track with it and turned it into a ball of aluminum with fiberglass shards as a topping someone would rebuild it around the chassis tag. They are , short of an atomic explosion , proof against not being rebuilt from even the scantest remains. My Lola most certainly is not a F5000, just a Sports 2000, but the same general principal holds true. See the story that is attached to this link. It is remarkable how little of this car survived the fire , never mind how little was re - usablhttps://primotipo.com/2014/06/24/lellas-lola-restoration-of-the-ex-lella-lombardi-lola-t330-chev-hu18-episode-1/e. Someone really , really wanted a F5000 Lola. Lots of people want Sports 2000's. In England the Vintage Sports 2000 series grows in popularity with each passing year. And a Sports 2000 is a much simpler car than a F5000. People are fitting new tub's and bodywork to them regularly.

My series one cars both had the twin carbs here in Canada. Perhaps someone changed the carbs { or possibly even the engine } for a single carb set up . Hillman ? Or possibly even from something like a Sunbeam Rapier ? I believe they used the single carb.

My Staver uses a very similar rear hubcap / drive spider set up . I think the general concept was reasonably common in the 1910 - 1914 era. Luckily both my rear caps are decent. I am missing one front cap however. Quite a bit smaller that the rear , and just a plain face , no Staver name. Makes finding another one very difficult. A year or two older and Staver caps had a very nice cast in logo. But a different rear end and a smaller thread size { on the rear at least }. A Staver logo front may be the same thread size as my front hub thread. But I have not been able to find one yet to try. I do have a Staver logo rear cap. Too small for my rear hub and too large large for my front. I expect the Staver logo hub caps are as popular and high priced with hub cap collectors ,as Staver radiator badges are with badge collectors. Staver used at least 4 different rear ends and I expect they all took a different size hub cap.

I wasn't moaning about the Canadian $ in regards to what I can personally buy in the U.S. marketplace. I recognized and accepted my reduced buying power decades ago and have accepted it. But it is a significant factor in the gradual movement of Canadian vintage car to U.S. owners. Apples to apples , the $ puts Canadian buyers at a notable disadvantage when attempting to buy Canadian vintage cars. Fewer local hobby cars, smaller overall car hobby. It hurts us from aspects as varied as Club survival to relations of the hobby with Government to local businesses either working on hobby cars or supplying parts.

Bill , I agree completely. Certainly there are cars more worth saving on the market. However my point about paying over a decade or two as opposed to paying most of the total cost up front still stands. Probably anyone who has to worry about the cost should look for a different pastime. Even Ed states that a decent condition, running example of one of these cars is a 65 - 85 K, $ U.S.D. proposition. How many of us are really in a position to spend that much all at once ? There used to be room for relatively average means people to participate in the hobby. In most cases not with a Pierce, but Ed says this car could have been bought for under $10,000.00, not a rich man only need apply price. Obviously Pebble and similar, has always been for the very well healed only since the beginning. But not every PA needs to be a PB quality car. Perhaps it's clocks and post war MG's till the end for me after all. And possibly a few laps in my Lola if I get lucky on the pools.

I had a pair of them in the 1970's as well. A rusty 61 that had a decent engine , bought for $100.00 and sold as scrap. And a decent 62 bought with a blown engine for $200.00. Did the engine swap and added wire wheels from one near me being broken for parts. Drove it for a time. Sold for around $400.00 so I could afford a 1965 MGB.

Walt , I whole heartedly agree. A occasional drive in someone else's car can work wonders when things bog down. Unfortunately, some of live in the relative back waters of the old car world. Look at P. Findlay's thread of the old cars of British Columbia. A good number of the cars he and others featured in that thread are now either not in this area or in a museum / black hole collection sort of situation. Only a relatively small number in general regular use. And I only know a small handful of the owners personally. Like I have said before , there is a lot of interest in old cars in this area, but relatively few cars. And due to the crap Canadian $ and very high cost of living around here things are getting worse not better over time. Peter did very generously give my wife and I a back seat ride in his Cadillac a few years ago . As did Bill Trant in his Buick model 17 around the same time. Peter even let me drive the Cadillac for several miles. A treat beyond words ! Some day I sure hope I have a running , driving vintage car of my own. But it has been a very up hill struggle so far. And in some ways I have been my own worst enemy as I also have been involved with old British sports cars and small bore British racing cars in parallel competition for my ever fewer disposable $ over the decades. Realistically I need to get the Vintage racing bug out of my system before a running vintage car is a possibility. But vintage racing has also been a bucket list item since I was in my 20's. So one thing at a time to maintain my sanity and my wife's support. My interest in vintage cars remains as strong as ever . And this forum is great in keeping vintage car prominently in my mind. It's about the only vintage car outlet I have had during the covid shut down.

I know Ed disagrees, and his reasons do hold water in a strictly logical way of looking at things. But I still maintain that a number of people not on the Eastern Seaboard would consider cars in this condition very restorable. It's a big world. When you see what people in England, Europe, Down Under and even way out here in Western Canada take on , cars like this almost fall into the " easy restoration " category. It's intact. all there , or at least very close, it's a well respected and reasonably well supported maker and therefore has a lot more going for it than what many non East Coast restorers are starting with. As fewer and fewer of these cars exist , the further and further the hobby moves from the reach of middle income and lower people. Sure it would be cheaper in the long run to just go out and buy a better one. But for a good number of people, spreading the overall cost over a 20 or 25 year restoration is the only way it can be done. Even if at the end it costs more in total. Not everyone is in a position to go out and spend $25 - 40 K all at once , but $3000.00 - $5,000.00 / year over 20 years opens up the hobby to a much larger group of people. Maintaining the attitude that you MUST go out and buy a good condition car right off the bat or you will loose your shirt, be underwater etc. means that in the near future almost no one but the very well off will even think about owning a stock condition , Pre War car. Even more so if it is a CCCA car. Finally, as many have pointed out in the past. They don't all have to restored to Pebble Beach quality. Sure, you can spend $200,000.00 on a restoration, but many do it on a much lower budget.

Yes, all pressings. But heavy gauge steel, and built to last ! It's a style of construction I have not seen before. I wonder if White cars are similar ? I have a few teens mufflers in my parts pile. And all of them are like you say, cast ends , tubular steel inner and outer sleeves, and through bolts holding it all together.

How do you get a Title for ANY car built before Titles existed ? There is probably a process in existence in every State. And it was probably written into law at the time Titles were introduced in each particular State. Does not mean it is an easy process, but most likely with persistence and $ can almost always be accomplished except in States where cars older than a certain year are not issued titles.

Does each of those sections come apart , perhaps for cleaning ? The ends almost look like steel pressings rather than castings.

In Western Canada similar steam engines were usually moved in the Winter on skis. Wheels would be removed beforehand. Not really needed at a mine site or sawmill anyway. A large team of Horses can move quite a load over the snow, although sometimes a Cat tractor would be used for really steep terrain.

It must have been heartbreaking to loose such a rare and remarkable Buick. Hopefully you will rebuild your shop and glad to hear your 1915 survived !

This story was one of the first to really grab me . I am not old enough to have read it when it was first printed, 1966 I was still in primary school, but when I first became seriously interested in Brass cars years ago an older Brass car guy gave me a stack of old Gazettes and these two issues were in the stack. I read the story of the Peerless and its recovery over and over, and for many years after had dreams of finding something along the same lines here in the British Columbia mountains. Never happened of course. British Columbia was picked over reasonably thoroughly in the later 1950's and 1960's just like the American South West. One never completely gives up hope, but it is a long time since I have heard of anyone finding a diamond in the wild in these parts.

Ed , I know only too well about the principals of involvement with the uber rare. A few of my projects are just that. But apart from the Staver Chicago, post war and British so I doubt very much you would have even heard of them. But yes , when dealing with single digit survivors, you can indeed die waiting for a better one to come along. Or for the rest of the parts to materialize for that mater. It's been a 4 decade journey now, unfortunately in my case the $ are always a serious holdback. Makes the climb that much steeper. I know race cars aren't quite your thing Ed. But here is one of my " rare " ones a 1973 Elden Formula 3 car. One of 3 built in 1973 { Cosworth BDA power } with a further 3 built in 1974. For the first few years when new it was a pro series Formula 3 car. Modified with a VW Super V engine once it came here to North America in the late 1970's as the care and feeding of a Cosworth can run a bundle. And not really necessary as it got too old for pro racing and gravitated down to amateur events. The other one. bright green, is one of its sisters, restored and used in British historic F3 events. Engine swaps are no big deal in these cars. The gearboxes are all the same, just a different intermediate plate to match your engine and motor mounts. They variously came with pushrod Fords , Lotus Twin Cams, Cosworth BD series, Hart 420's, Water cooled VW's and BMW M12's. They are all more or less a bolt in.

Later this year is probably fine. There may be a move in my middle distance future if my wife gets her way. She is getting very tired of living in a dump { even if it has a land value that would knock your socks off }. Trouble is around here it is like N.Z., your million $ dog can only be redeemed for someone down the roads $ 1.5 million dollar cat . Only the Gov. through taxes on the transaction and the Real Estate Agents really profit. Upshot is that I doubt moving day will be any sooner than several months from now. Regarding having to cut up the Washington state truck, in the end your getting a White together is the most important thing. But at the same time , not having to do major frame surgery has its merits as well. My Two ton frame was totally taken apart by a Farmer in Utah who wanted some of the steel channel for a farm project. Luckily he only actually used the rear half of one side, I got the other 3/4's, but what a job it's going to be putting it all back together. The frame was stretched from the factory shortest W.B. to the next longer factory W.B. Possibly as a new truck at a Dealer, the quality of the work is very good. When it goes together I am going to go back to the short version. These things are big enough as it is. I used to know where there was a couple of later teens Whites in Oregon , a few hours due East of Portland. They were probably at least 3 tons but intact and in reasonably good condition. At the time I had real thoughts of substituting one for my basket case Packard 2 ton project. But getting them across the border and home was more than I could take on at the time. { one of those missed opportunities Ed } I doubt they are still there, a 1 horse town out in the boonies, but the owner was in his late 70's and already the town was giving him static about them. As far as I was concerned the two Whites were the highlight of the town, but obviously others saw things differently.

Well Ed, if a person has Jay's resources that's a very easy statement to make and live by. The rest of us however ....... not so much. I have had to pass up several very worthwhile opportunities over the years because try as I might some shortcoming on my side of the equation couldn't be overcome. Those sort opportunities have pretty much vanished over the last 15 years in these parts.

Hi Mike, I know shipping is crazy these days, but would not have this one been a better start than the one you are now working on ? At least it hadn't been seriously modified. Too bad you didn't find it back when you found the first one and had it shipped a few years ago before rates went nuts . Greg

Yes, a mid teens price would probably result in an instant sale and a very happy buyer. But despite the paint problems and questions surrounding the quality of restoration, the car remains a Master Series Roadster with extremely desirable B 5 Buffalo wheels. Were this a very rough , very long term storage " barn find " it would probably still be a $10,000.00 car. This is quite possibly the most desirable 1920's Buick made.

I have a body very similar this. Came from a swap meet years ago. Quite well built , so I think mine at least was probably a commercially produced version rather than home made. Great photo ! Thanks for posting .

That red 6 Cyl. is very impressive. Truly in the big car class. GM had some strange marketing at this time. Both the 1914 Buick big 6 and these Oaklands 6's were , larger , more powerful cars than Cadillac's last of the 4 Cyl. cars made in 1914. Pity only a very small number of either the Oakland big 6 or the Buick big 6's { original 1914 version } survive.

Not sure about the color, but that's a nice Buick ! Price doesn't even seem too outrageous.