1950 Packard Briggs body ID

[Guest Spparky82]

Hi i am looking to buy a 1950 packard series 23 body number 2372-3996. how do i find out if the car was stolen or there is something wrong with the car? Since it isn't a vin i dont know how to run the number for the histoy of the car.

 

thanks

[Guest BillP]

Hi Sparky and welcome,

 

Does the Packard have a clear title in the name of the seller?

Does the serial number on the title match that on the car?

If no the either of the above, pause and reconsider.

 

If yes to both, you may be assured that you can probably title the car in your name.

 

As far as a history of having been stolen or "there is something wrong with the car" (what do you mean by that?) goes, you may or may not ever know.

[Guest Spparky82]

There is no title to the car. Just a bill of sale the person I want to buy it from got from the original owner. Without a title how can I tell if the car has a clean history? With out a title I don't know what I am buying? How can I run the vin or Briggs number to check the number?

[Dave Henderson]

Can you locate the "original owner"?  Even if he/she didn't have a title for unknown reasons, an old registration could possibly lead to obtaining one.  Might also be that the car was financed and never paid off, with the lender holding the title.   Lack of a vin is fishy.  On some cars there is a hidden location where the vin or serial number is duplicated.  In some states such as Virginia a title may be obtained for "abandoned" cars. 

[Guest BillP]

Hi Sparky,

 

Allow me to be more clear. If there is no title, my advice is to walk away.

 

It is the seller's job to produce a title; otherwise you are buying a pile of parts that you probably will never title, license or register.

 

"Running VINs" is a modern thing; you don't get much of that with vintage cars, especially if they are pre-VIN. For more info, I suppose you could ask a cop or a helpful License Bureau employee.

[Guest Spparky82]

Thanks guys I am in NJ and they are a tough state to deal with. The owner of the car now states he has one of the registrations from the car. I could use that to check the name of the original owner, but that is a lot of leg work.

[Guest bkazmer]

There were no VIN's in 1950.

The Briggs number on the firewall doesn't mean much - it is not sequenced to any Packard-assigned number.

The car title should match either the serial number on the cowl data plate (although on Packards it is often missing as the plate is only screwed on)

or the engine number, which is on the upper part of the block .

The engine number does not match the serial number.

The engine number also tells a 288 from a 327.  Don't rely on the ID cast in the head as the heads interchange.

[Guest Spparky82]

Does anyone know if I can use two bill of sales to get a title in NJ?

[Guest BillP]

Probably.

[Matt Harwood]

Do not buy this car. No title will make all kinds of headaches, but by the time you figure out what those headaches are, you've lost your money and are now stuck with a car you can neither register nor sell to some other sucker. DO NOT BUY A CAR WITHOUT A TITLE. It sure seems like you really want this car and are willing to take a real risk with it, but I can assure you that unless the car is free, it will be a bigger headache than it's worth. Some states are "registration only" and do not use titles, but I don't believe New Jersey is one of them. A bill of sale (even two of them) will not get you a valid title. Knowing who the previous owner was will not get you a title. Some old papers from some guy in the '70s will not get you a title. Old registration documents will not get you a title. In most cases, only a title will get you a title. There are some quasi-legal services out there who will conjure a title from thin air for you, but many states are rejecting these so you'll spend $750-1000 on a "new" title from one of these services and may still be SOL with your DMV.

 

There are plenty of 1950 Packards laying around for not a lot of money. Find one with a good title and buy that one instead.

 

Regardless of which car you acquire, you will not be able to find out much, if any, history by using the VIN or serial number. Services like CarFax don't go back that far and the only agencies who can tell you ownership history are the police and the DMV, neither of whom will willingly give you that information in most cases. Some titles will list one or two previous owners, but you won't get much more than that from any of the official sources.And there's probably no information out there to tell you whether this is a "good" car. Nobody tracked any of that stuff until very recently, and even things like CarFax only track things that were reported to insurance companies, the dealer, or the DMV. A car that was wrecked and repaired by Cooter at the corner garage won't show up on CarFax as having been wrecked, so it's no guarantee, either.

 

Once again, if this car does not have a title, DO NOT BUY IT. It isn't a nice enough car or a cheap enough car, and even if Elvis was the original owner, without a title, it's worthless for anything but parts. There are no guarantees with old cars, no promises that they have spotless histories or that they're "good" cars, but if a car doesn't have a title, that's a BIG red flag that says DO NOT BUY ME!

[Dave Henderson]

Matt, "Do not buy a car if it does not have a title" is of course good general advice.  There are however some exceptions.  For example, you can, in some instances, get a title even on the basis of the previous owner's having only a registration card.  I obtained a vehicle that had originally been licensed in what was then a no title state.  When the owner moved to Virginia from that state the DMV allowed him to register it, but would not give him a title. "Possession is 9/10th of the law" is an old saw, but it does have some meaning.  Some years later I acquired it on a bill of sale and showed the DMV the owner's old registration card.  They DID give me a title, on the basis that it had been registered in this state for an adequate time to satisfy them.  Virginia is rather old car friendly, if you don't have to deal with ladies at the local DMV's

[60FlatTop]

This is a "do as I say, not as I do" thing. Writing to the Forum to ask kind of shows you aren't the experienced conniver it takes to come out with papers and a minimum of frustration. That's the legal side.

 

On the pragmatic side, which wouldn't affect me, the car surely hasn't been licensed or driven by the potentially 90-100 year old owner, may not start, stop, steer, or cool; and it's a common car (being a Super Eight is nice). Prices are not high on a really good one that has been babied by a collector.

 

A car without papers needs to be treated as a parts car. And a parts car is like buying work.

Bernie

Edited August 20, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[JWLawrence]

I would have the seller obtain a title before purchasing the car. Maybe put down a small and refundable deposit to declare your intention. If the seller refuses or is unable to obtain a title, move on as there are may 22nd and 23rd series Packards out there.

 

bkazmer has give a good summary of the Packard numbering method. In addition to the Briggs body number, Patent plate numbers, and engine number there is a embossed number on the cowl (firewall) wall. None of these numbers are intended to match.

 

(o{}o)

Edited August 20, 2015 by JWLawrence (see edit history)

[Fleek]

I agree with JWLawrence. It should be up to the seller to furnish a title. If he can not, then you are not likely to be able to do it either. Let him title it and then sell you a legitimate car, or walk away.

[Guest Spparky82]

Thanks everyone I am going to ask the seller to get the title. Nice car but if there are more out there then I will find another one.

[benjamin j]

i bought a very nice 1950 packard last year for $300 with title. The year bofore i bought a 1934 olds with bill of sale only and not much history on the car.  i took the bill of sale and the very short serial number from the frame which is the vin number for a oldsmobile to a local attorny. I paid the attorny $50 and he made a offical looking letter for me to take to the county court. Muskingum county Ohio. about a mounth later I recieved a letter with my court date. I had to go to court and tell the judge that i was confident that everything was on the up and up. His people had ran the vin number and found nothing so i was given a title for court cost $100. I had just a couple of hours invested and $150 to get a 1934 oldmobile title in hand which increased the value of the car by a bunch.

People make things sound as if they are so hard to do when they dont have a clue.

Is it worth the risk? That depends on how much you are willing to risk.  

[mrpushbutton]

The Briggs body number IS the VIN number, that number should be identical to the photo-etched plate screwed to the cowl under the hood. Many cars lose that plate over the years, but rarely the Briggs tag. Packards tend to be problematic from a "VIN number" (realize that the modern 17-digit federally mandated VIN number did not come about until 1981, so the clerk at your DMV is going to be dumbfounded by whatever you give them. The thing with Packards is,  There is an engine number (a good number to use for identifying the vehicle, as long as that black stays with the car) the stamped theft-proof number (which I have seen Packards titled under-incorrectly) the Briggs body number (starting with the 1941 Clipper and all Packards 194-1954) and finally, the actual assigned ID number, which on your car is  2372-3996. This is broken down as follows: 23=23rd series car, indicated that the car was built between May 2nd, 1949 and August of 1950, the "72" indicates that it is the Super Deluxe four-door sedan, on the 2302 Super chassis, the numbers after the dash indicate its sequential number in the model run, which usually started at 1001, making this is 2,996th of these cars built. 

[Larry W]

I agree with Benjamin, the way I have handled your situation is that I would tell the seller, " we'll meet at the DMV. When the clerk hands me the title in my name, I'll hand you the money. ". This then becomes sort of a team effort as you want the car and the seller wants his money. It may take several DMV visits, but eventually I've ended up the proud new owner.

[GK1918]

What to do with this one.  Right down my street  there is a 5,000 mile 1950 Packard.  Story is a local millionare large textile factory

(in town)   In 1951 he had his chapher (can't spell that-driver) brought to this garage for a set of tires.  Now at the same time

a huge labor strike trying to get a union (fires- tiped over cars like gangsters)  So the ole man pulled the plug and moved to

So Carolina.  At present all involved are deseased.  I personally knew all involved and know this property was willed to a

church & I do not know the church, however the garage been boarded up for 15yrs the Packard has not moved a whisker

since 1951  Its still on the lift, because I saw it last winters blizzard when they put more plywood that blew off the building.

So how would one get a new Packard like this?  I Suppose to get it , maybe over $500,000 to buy the property, and the property

is not zoned for business (was grandfathered) and no one would pay that for a small house lot just for the car. Impossible to

get a  title for this one.  Most likely they will flaten the building car and all..someday.

[Dave Henderson]

In GK1918's case, someone became heir to that property.  A lien could be placed on the Packard, and a sherif's sale could follow.  A title could then be obtained by the buyer.  Or, the beneficiary, at least in my state, could obtain a title for it as an abandoned car and sell it to you..

[Curti]

Odd, that it would need tires at 5,000 miles.  

Who are 'they' that reinstalled the new plywood?

 All old cars can get titled, it is easier and cheaper in some states than others. Wisconsin was one of the worst states to get a title until they recently changed the laws in favor of the hobbyist. Maybe other states will follow suit.

[GK1918]

Odd, that it would need tires at 5,000 miles.  

Who are 'they' that reinstalled the new plywood?

 All old cars can get titled, it is easier and cheaper in some states than others. Wisconsin was one of the worst states to get a title until they recently changed the laws in favor of the hobbyist. Maybe other states will follow suit.

Far as tires, I suspect the shop recommended tires maybe for a long trip maybe whitewalls don't know.  As far as the workers, I was

plowing snow next door dinner and saw the car.  Some church owns the property and contents so no doubt they hired or free

labor church people.  Being a millionare and not a car guy,  a set of tires equills a box of cigares. 

[Larry W]

GK 1918, Easy peasy, find out, from the local tax assessor, who's paying the taxes on that property and talk to that person about the car. More than likely they're wondering how to get rid of it. Then everyone's prayers will be answered.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Larry W (see edit history)