It Never Fails, Except When It Does

[johnemac]

I had an issue like the one described. Horrible start up's, misses, etc. Did what I could including the ground block of wires. Took it to a mechanic and they could not get a fault to show but when they drove it they saw the issues. Told me they would not guarantee a fix but felt the brain was bad. Worked alittle better for about a week then bad again. Had the alternator tested and it was good. Driving home one night the battery started to discharge so I had it tested and it showed good. Got curious and took the alternator back to be tested but it showed good, I said run it one more time and it faulted. So it was an intermittent alternator failure all along.

[Guest ReattaRobert]

First you cut off all the plastic/rubber off the +and - cable ends. Then you cut off the plastic on the battery. YES you will see there is a lip of plastic on the battery where the side posts are bolted to hold the cables on. This lip is to seal the cable to the battery. I have been cutting these plastic parts off for years on all my cars. It lets you see what is going on with the connections.

Well, okay, BUT, the purpose of the plastic on the battery end of the battery cables is to help keep the metal contact portions from getting corroded by battery acid and other corrosive elements. I have seen many examples of this over the years that have caused lack of contact problems on units that have had the plastic removed.

All my GM's with the side terminal batterys from my brand new, ordered out 73 Grand Am (the REAL Grand Am! which I still own, by the way), through countless Olds Diesels and Chev Cop cars and, now my Reatta, by keeping the contact sufaces clean and a light coating of dielectric grease, my battery connections have been remarkable trouble-free - much more so than top post type connections.

[Guest craig hewitt]

You guys ever remember the tap test I can remember the drivabilty guys pulling the ecm and slapping them and the car would act up or straighten out that told them to replace HUMMMMMMMMMMMm Craig

[Guest mhuffy]

I cannot find the post either with a search. It is been a few months since my mechanic did the last one. I can see if he still has what I printed out. If so, I will send you a PM and maybe I can fax or send you a copy. He did say the 88 was easier than the 90 due to a bracket on the 90 that is not on the 88. I don't know if they added the bracket in 89 or 90.Honestly, I am not sure that the 88 is not missing something, but I would doubt it as neither car had been modified anywhere else.

Ronnie, may have it on his site too. He is often good about posting links to different tip pages on his site. You might want to check there and see. Also, in the search that I did, Barney had made mention in one that some people have been successful in changing the CPS without removing the Harmonic Balancer. He may also have something in his archives. He is also another wealth of knowledge.

Be sure to post your progress and let everyone know what happens. These are great cars that are well built and fun to drive albeit sometimes they are quite frustrating. Good Luck.

[Guest mhuffy]

Sorry - Just re-read Ronnie's post indicating that he would post the info. Obviously, he doesn't have it on his site. We will have to try Barney or hope for my mechanic having it.

Sorry,

Marc

[wws944]

As Telco mentions, the problem has been endemic in GM trucks - especially the 88-99 body style. I had the problem in my Suburban. I had to replace the battery and all cables due to acid damage. Ever since then, I have used Optimas - which won't leak. (In my Porsche, the Optima is actually mounted on its side...)

FWIW, the battery involved was a Delco Professional that was installed by the local Chevy dealer back when my truck was still under warranty. This was back in probably 1998 or 1999. Maybe the Delco Professionals have deeper bolt holes now.

Also note that when this problem happens, the intermittent connect/disconnect can take out the alternator diodes. One way to test without removing the alternator is to set your radio between stations on the AM band and listen for alternator whine as you rev the engine. But removing it and having a shop test it on a 'scope is the best way.

It is good to know that the lead washer is not present in the Reattas. Like Telco, I am pretty new to Reattas as well. But Ronnies experience shows that the problem can still happen.

Edited January 18, 2010 by wws944 (see edit history)

[ol' yeller]

Interesting, my radio has had a whine related to engine noise for the last couple of weeks. I thought it was a bad connection as a previous owner had installed an amplifier and big bass speakers in the trunk. The radio would cut out sometimes when I hit a bump which, to me, signalled a loose connection.

I am getting the car back today (I have to arrange a tow). First thing I will check will be the battery cables. I did remove them, clean them, and then reinstall but it never occurred to me to check their tightness. Given I had the code 412, battery voltage too high, I think you may be onto something here. I have never heard of an alternator causing an engine to misfire but given the electrical complexity of the Reatta, I can see how it could happen. Easiest thing for me today would be to pull the alternator and have it tested, after checking battery connections. It is also possible that a bad ground elsewhere could cause the same alternator failure so I will also check the other grounds listed by a prior poster. I hope it is as easy as this! I'll post back tonight if I make progress. If I don't make progress today I'll also let you all know. I really appreciate you guys!

Greg

[harry yarnell]

The 'tool' I use to align the crank sensor with the vanes on the harmonic balancer, is the cardboard torn from the box the sensor comes from. Fold the cardboard into a U; insert it in one slot of the sensor, loosly mount it, test install the balancer/vanes. Tighten the sensor bolt, remove the balancer so you can remove the cardboard shim and reinstall the balancer.

[padgett]

Matchbook covers used to be the preferred method to set points but there do not seem to be any anymore.

[Guest NEMO]

Removing the plastic around the cable and the extra plastic on the battery is to get a good connection. NOTHING is hidden . You can also glue pennies on the battery too, these will show signs of a problem if it starts.Lack of contact is the problem. I for one want to see the connections on all my cars. If you want to guess of the condiction of the connections keep them covered.

[ol' yeller]

Ok, I finally got the car home after a big hassle finding a tow company that actually wanted to tow the car and would show up at the appointed time.

I began chasing the grounds and checking the battery cables. I found no obvious problems but sanded and cleaned all connections including the positive junction above the battery. This did clear up all the little ancillary problems, intemittant chimes, dash and interior lights etc. I then pulled the alternator and took it to a local parts house and had it tested. It tested fine. I reinstalled it and found that my ignition noise I was hearing on the AM band of the radio was gone.

The car will now start and run fine...for a while. Sometimes it would run for 5 minutes and then stall. There are no service engine soon lights or anything else until it stalls, then the service engine soon light goes on. When it runs, it runs like normal, no missing and all gauges read within the proper ranges. I ran the A/C and it appears not to effect the problem. I also checked when in gear and that seemed to have no effect to make the problem appear. Then all of a sudden it would stall.

I grounded the A port to the B port and got the code 12 as the manual says I should. Reading the Service Engine Soon light, I then got a code 13, a code 14 and then a code 11. According to the service manual the codes should be in ascending order???

At this point I suspect I had a couple of problems. One caused by a bad ground. I think I have fixed that problem. The other stalling problem remains and I am leaning hard towards Harry's CPS suggestion. I don't have time now to work on it so it will probably be the weekend before I can pull the CPS and replace it. It seems to be running better, it just stalls but it runs fine until it does and runs fine after until it stalls again. It fires right up after stalling.

I'm going to spend the next few days reading the service manual and try to better understand the diagnostics and the procedure to replace the CPS. Any further enlightenment would be much appreciated.

[bobwhite]

A number of years ago I bought a heavy duty battery cable set for the Reatta from CustomBatteryCables.com. Here is a link to the page that has the Reatta set on it. vehicle applications

If you buy a set, be sure to specify what battery ends you want on it. I got the non GM type to avoid future problems. They have been great and worth the investment. I noticed the starter motor was a little faster too.

[padgett]

I have lost track of your problems. Are the IPC and HVAC working ? If so go to Reatta.net and read how to display the diagnostics until you understand them. Engine does not need to be running just the ignition must be on.

Runs for a few minutes then stalls sounds to me like it is dying when it goes into closed loop operation (about three minutes cold, 30 seconds hot).

SES light will come on when the engine dies and you lose oil pressure. If the SES light comes on just before it dies that would be significant and would mean a code had set.

Lets start here. Section 8D in the FSM should have the diagnosis. Note particularly figures 8D-2 and 8D-4, the HIGH indicator on the HVAC panel indicates closed loop. If it is off, you are in open loop (engine running), when it comes on the ECM just went into closed loop. I am suspecting that you go into closed loop, the SES light comes on, and it dies. Let us know what you find.

Edited January 19, 2010 by padgett (see edit history)

[ol' yeller]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Cleaning the grounds and connections cleared my IPC problems , my interior light problems, and the intermittant door chimes. I never had any HVAC problems. I do not have any more time to work on this until the weekend. My plan is to read up on the diagnostics in the service manual prior to then so I have a better idea of what I am seeing. I suspect that Harry was right and I have a bad CPS. It takes awhile to stall after it goes into closed loop. Also it restarts immediately and runs for another 5 or 10 minutes until it stalls again. It never stalled immediately upon restart. Wouldn't it go into closed loop sooner after the car was warmed up? The SES light always lights when it stalls and then goes off upon restart. It is like something is triggering the car to shut down after running perfectly for a few minutes. This is why I think Harry was right. I have the square type ignition coils so I will have to eventually make the Padgett upgrade. I didn't have time to pull them and inspect them on the bottom. Tapping on the MAF made no difference. Any further enlightenment would be appreciated to try on the weekend.

[Vincent Vega]

Sure sounds like an ignition module to me.

[padgett]

Or just possibly a bad ignition switch...

Now that you have fixed some of the problems, what exactly is left ? Stalling only ?

[ol' yeller]

Or just possibly a bad ignition switch...

Now that you have fixed some of the problems, what exactly is left ? Stalling only ?

Yes that is my only problem. The car will start/run/idle perfectly in gear, out of gear, A/C on, A/C off and then light the SES light and die. Sometimes it will run for 5-10 minutes. It then restarts right away with no warning lights other than what is supposed to be showing.

Greg

[Ronnie]

What codes are being set now that the ground issues have been resolved?

Links below will tell you how to check the codes and decipher what they mean. Report back here what you find.

Reatta Owners Journal - How To Access Trouble Codes - '90 & '91 Models

Reatta Owners Journal - ECM Diagnostic Codes

[Guest NEMO]

Have you changed the crank sensor yet ?

[Guest tomt]

When in doubt, just tell the car "I was just kidding about selling you". It worked for me.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Brought my Select 60 in to get a new windshield a week or so ago and the rearview mirror fell off in the parking lot of the glass shop. They know who loves them.

[padgett]

If the SES light came on before it died, a code was set. We need to know the code.

[ol' yeller]

I grounded the A port to the B port and got the code 12 as the manual says I should. Reading the Service Engine Soon light' date=' I then got a code 13, a code 14 and then a code 11. According to the service manual the codes should be in ascending order???[/quote']

Padgett, Above are the codes I pulled on Monday after I fixed all the other problems. They make no sense to me as according to the service manual they should be in ascending order. They are also supposed to repeat 3 times. Code 12 repeated 3 times which means the car is being scanned. Codes 13 & 14 also repeated 3 times in that order. Then I got code 11 once. The entire sequence then repeated. ???

Greg

[padgett]

I never heard of a code 11. What do the diagnostics show (key on, engine off, press OFF and WARMER on HVAC control until the dash blinks and read codes at the ODO).

[ol' yeller]

Code 11 was really different. The other codes flashed 3 times as they are supposed to. Code 11 only flashed once. There was a very long pause between the lights too when it flashed 11. As far as I can tell, all the diagnostic readings are within the recommended range per the service manual. Here they are.

ED01-.44

ED04-82

ED06-18.7

ED07-.45

ED08-70

ED10-12.3

ED11-20

ED12-0

ED16-0

ED17-0

ED18-0

ED19-128

ED20-128

ED21-0

ED22-150

ED23-24

ED98-1

ED99-9044

I plan to delve deeper into this tomorrow. Any help prior would be appreciated. This is scary as it is beginning to make some sense to me...at least operationally. Thanks again.

Greg

[Guest mhuffy]

When I had trouble - I had codes that didn't make sense. I had changed the ICM, CPS, coil pacs, etc. I spoke with my mechanic and he suggested that I just change the ECM. I did and now, no problems. His rationale was that if the ECM is bad, it can generate codes that were not generated by actual faults as the computer actually thought there were issues that didn't exist. It actually made sense to me. Advanced had it for around 71.00 exchange. The prom is easy to change, and the ECM fit under the dash is quite snug, but doable.

[ol' yeller]

OK I'm getting very frustrated. Today I went out to pull the car into the garage so I could work on it. It would fire and then stall about 4-5 times before it would run well enough (very bad) to pull it into the garage to work on it. I began with pulling the spark plugs. I was surprised to find them very black, appearing to be gas fouled, not oil fouled. I replaced the plugs with AC Delco R44LTS6 as recommended in the service manual. I also replaced the O2 sensor. I then pulled the coil assembly from the ignition module but both had no outward signs of failure.

About a month ago, I replaced the IAC and cleaned the MAF and the opening to the throttle body. I was surprised to find they were very sooty again. I installed the old IAC to see if it would make a difference. It didn't. I didn't have any more cleaner so I couldn't reclean all of it.

As long as I had the tools out, I replaced the Crank Position Sensor. It was a big job. The challenge of removing the harmonic balancer bolt was especially tough but I used the starter to my advantage and got the bolt out. The original CPS had no outward signs of failure. Cost wasn't much but it was a bear to get it installed and aligned correctly.

The serpentine belt had some cracks so as long as I was replacing stuff, I replaced the belt too.

When I fired it up it ran exactly as it did when I started it this morning. Very badly.

I tried to check codes but they were screwey. I got the code 12 - 3 times as I should. I then got a code 13, a code 14 and then it went nuts. The SES light would blink once and then 17-23 times very fast. Then it would blink once and then activate several of the relays under the hood. Then it would blink code 12-3 times. It is very hard to count the flashes of the SES lamp as it blinks very rapidly. When the car runs, the SES light is lit. I did clear the codes prior to attempting to start it after I made today's repairs.

At this point, I am thinking either I have a bad ignition module, a bad ignition coil, or a bad ECU. There is also the possibility of a bad MAF. An ignition module costs about $100. The coils another $115. I suspect a MAF will run well over $100 as well. The ECU costs around $80. Counting towing, parts and shop charges, I am now well over $500 into this problem and it still runs like crap.

Please help me isolate this mess.

Greg

[Ronnie]

I really don't understand why you don't use the Reatta's built in diagnostics to check the codes. It's easier and gives better information than shorting the pins in the ALDL. I'm not talking about checking the data points as you listed previously. The built in diagnostics will give you the codes stored in the computer.

Be sure to replace the cap on the ALDL or it can cause problems of it's own.

[ol' yeller]

Ronnie, I don't mean to be an idiot but I thought I did check the diagnostics and listed the readings in a previous post. Obviously this isn't what you are suggesting. I did check the engine diagnostics. How do I use the diagnostic program to check for codes? My reading of the manual was to use the A to B shorting method to check for codes and then use the diagnostic program to get readings. I didn't check for any readings other than engine as that was where I was having problems. I'm willing to be educated, please enlighten me.

Greg

[Ronnie]

Sorry if I'm making this more confusing than what it really is. I hope the following will help explain what I'm talking about.

What you listed before was the data from the sensors. What you are needing is the codes that have been set. That will help in troubleshooting your problem.

Follow the steps listed below closely. Let us know if you get any codes checking in the manner described below.

• Turn on the key, Then on your ECC ( climate control module ) push the "off" and temperature up ( up arrow ) at the same time and hold them until the car goes into the diagnostic mode.
  
• You will see all of the lights on the IPC light up and the trouble codes will then be displayed where the mileage reading usually is.
  
• Write down the codes as they go by. They go by pretty fast so write them down quickly and watch for the next.
  
• First you will get the engine codes eg. Exxx, then you will get the body codes eg. Bxxx then some IPC codes eg. Rxxx and maybe an SIR code.
  
• If any code has an "h" after it that means it is a code in history and not current. No "h" means it is a current code.
  
• After all the codes have displayed you will get a Ec? this means do you want to diagnose the engine computer.
  
• Pressing the Fan down arrow you will be telling the computer no, the fan up arrow means yes.
  
• If you did get any Ec codes and you want to clear them, when you get the Ec? push yes and then it will ask you questions, keep pushing no until it asks if you want to clear the E codes then push yes.
  
• If you have no E codes and/or want to go to the B codes when it asks you Ec? push the fan down button for no and it will then ask you Bc, and you can push yes.
  
• It will then ask you questions and you continue pushing no until it ask CLR b code and you push the up fan for yes.
  
• You cannot hurt anything or screw up anything by doing this and if you make a mistake simply turn off the key and start over or push the bi-level button next to the fan switch.
  

[ol' yeller]

Thanks Ronnie, Tomorrow is my only Granddaughter's first birthday so I will be occupied there, not with the Reatta. I may have some time on Wednesday morning to do as you suggest. I did do the first part of your suggestion and got the readings from various engine sensors and componets. Hopefully between then and now I can read up in the manual. I am so frustrated with this car I am tempted to sell it for scrap value, as is, just to stop the bleeding. I'm sure it is something simple causing the problem or maybe a couple of simple problems. The staggering cost to determine the problem isn't worth the investment if it gets much worse. I do sincerely appreciate everyone's help so far.

Greg

[ol' yeller]

I decided to take a minute and see what the diagnostics said. It was wierd. Sometimes when I cycled the key and hit the on & temp up button, it would say "no E codes. If I cycled it again it showed E034H, E041C, E 042H, and 6552H. Sometimes I'd get a symbol that looked like a square box with no bottom and the codes following the symbol, 025H, 026H and 034H. I'll check the service manual but some enlightenment would be good. I did step through the sensor readings for the ECM, the BCM, the IPC and the SIR. I'll publish those if you think they'd be helpful. By the way, these are fresh codes since my repairs this afternoon. I did not start the car at any time taking these readings. Thanks again.

Greg

[Ronnie]

The E034 - MAF sensor, would definitely cause the problem you are experiencing. Have you tried lightly tapping on the MAF with a screwdriver handle while the engine is running to see if that causes the engine to stumble?

I think the 6552 is actually a B552 - BCM Memory Reset, which will occur if you remove the battery cable. OR if you still have a problem with a bad electrical connection somewhere. If you clear the codes the B552 should not return if all connections are good until you disconnect the battery cable again. If the B552 code keeps coming back you still have a bad connections somewhere.

What I would do next is: try tapping the MAF sensor and see how the engine reacts. Clear the codes, then test for codes again before starting the car and see what codes you find. Then start the car and test again for codes. Let us know what you find.

[DAVES89]

I would swap out the MAF sensor[or at least tap it as Ronnie suggested]. Another thing I remember from a guy [about 3 years ago that threw a lot of money at his car] was to check the fuel pump relay. If I remember right that took care of his problem. It certainly would be an easy thing to swap out and at very little cost as well.

Another thing to consider is what, if anything, was done to the car prior to it acting up? Did you do any tune us, change anything? Start with that...

[padgett]

E041c is usually a lost cam sprocket magnet (interrupter). If so the SES light will come on within a few seconds of starting. E042 is usually the Ignition Module though a bad ECM or ECM wiring could do also. -42 also puts the ECM in "backup" mode which will run poorly.

First, I would remove the kick panel and just R&R the three connectors on the ECM. No need to remove it, just remove and replace the connectors.

[ol' yeller]

First, I'd like to thank Ronnie in particular for leading this old horse to the water hole. I knew I was thirsty but wasn't sure I could find it on my own. The diagnostic procedure can be a little intimidating to the uninitiated. I was worried that I'd cause something to change and begin a death spiral of problems. Thanks to his instruction, I can see how this is a very nice feature to have incororated into a 20 year old car.

I did some more careful reading of the service manual last night (now that I know the codes) and right there in black and white is the procedure to troubleshoot each of the codes. It looks like a little quality time with a DVM and test light will help me isolate what is causing the codes. I will start with the 034 code first as that is the one related to the MAF. To answer the questions, last week when the car was running, I did do the tap test with the butt end of a screwdriver to the MAF with no change in running condition. I am concerned as to how black and sooty the MAF, IAC, and throttle body opening are. What would cause that?

The shop did a fuel pressure check and found it to be very good. It is possible that a relay could trigger and shut off fuel which would cause the stalling but why would it cause the engine to run poorly?

Padgett and Dave, R&Ring the ECM connections is a good, easy, and cheap thing to do. I will do that as well right after I diagnose the MAF. I can't just swap out the MAF as I don't have a spare and they are pretty expensive. If the diagnostic flow chart points to a bad MAF I guess I'll just have to suck it up and buy a new one. The flow chart shows that a bad connection at the ECM could cause an "open" in the test.

The only thing I had done to the car prior to the problem was changing the IAC and cleaning the IAC cavity, the MAF and throttle body opening. I was very careful not to touch the actual wire sensors of the MAF with anything except MAF cleaner. It really didn't clean up very well nor did anything else except to remove the loose soot. The actual components remained very dark in color. Yesterday they were again covered in soot. After the cleaning the car did run better for about a month and then this happened. About 6 months prior to the cleaning I did have a shop replace a water pump, the A/C compressor and recharge the A/C with R134a. That's about all I have done to the car mechanically since I bought it a year and a half ago.

Greg

[DAVES89]

The relay could be intermittant. Also when you cleaned and replaced the Maf sensor did the "o" ring stay in place? You might want to check that.

[Ronnie]

I am concerned as to how black and sooty the MAF, IAC, and throttle body opening are. What would cause that?

How many miles are on the car? Do you know if the timing chain has been changed? If I start seeing soot as far back in the intake system as the MAF I get concerned that there is a valve timing problem causing partial blowback through the intake when the engine fires. In other words the intake valve could be slightly open when the engine fires due to the cam not being in the right position.

I would exhaust all other possibilities first but you should keep this in the back of your mind as you investigate the problem.

[padgett]

When I cleaned the Bonne IAC at about 75,000 miles, the IAC passage was black/gummy yet the engine ran fine and had no issues. It may just be a long term accumulation.

Fuel relay only operates briefly at startup - after that it is the contacts in the oil pressure sensor which brings up a thought - the oil pressure sensor will not set a code.

OTOH it is easy to check, just put a 12v test light from the prime connector to ground. As long as the light is lit, the fuel pump has power.

[ol' yeller]

The "O" ring was still in place and it seemed pliable enough. The car has 152K miles on it so a spring chicken she ain't but I thought these 3.8L would last 200K easy. As an aside, the car has never smoked out the tailpipe even under hard accelleration. Could it be a bad EGR causing the soot? I was thinking of a valve timing issue but I really didn't want to go there. I assume the timing chain is original although I have only owned the car for a year and a half. Now that I think about it , a worn, sloppy, loose timing chain could cause the issues I am having. It could cause the soot that fouls the MAF and set the MAF code. It could also be the reason why the cam sensor is putting out a code.

On a local CL there is an 89 Reatta engine for sale with around 70K miles on it for $75. I may look ino picking that up. As long as it's a "C" code, it should swap in fine shouldn't it? I'm not thinking of getting it to cure my current problem but rather to keep for when I'll evntually need one.