Was I an A$$?

[West Peterson]

I think I need to go to confession. As I was walking away from my 1940 Packard at a high-end grocery store parking lot, a gentleman (with his wife) saw my car and said, "I'll trade you." Without thinking, I looked at the Toyota symbols on the wheels of his SUV and said, "If it were American, I'd consider it." He responded with a short, "Sorry."

I feel like a heal, still, three days later. Just had to get this off my chest.

[Twitch]

Sure it was a cutesy remark but the way our native auto industry is suffering it was not unfounded. I refuse to buy anything from off shore simply because we need to support our industry not because import quality is bad. If folks had known the future long-term consequences of their auto buying habits in 1955 we'd all be better off with far more American choices.

I wouldn't feel bad about it for long. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

Sad fact is that the Toyota is prolly more "American" than most new cars & trucks from the Big Three. My new Dodge/Cummins One Ton Diesel Pickup was assembled in Mexico from parts sourced all over the globe..... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[tbirdman]

You should had said, "does your SUV come with your wife?" <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Packard enthus.]

Wes - you lose ! Next time you get a chance...go to a Toyota dealer and look at the "Monroney" stickers. In the case of the Toyota Sienna, for example...it is an AMERICAN car. American designed..sourced HERE of AMERICAN parts, built here! (which may explain its superb quality...the Japanese have found their over-all bottom line is better here in AMERICA with our highest quality AMERICAN labor !

I just got rid of my 2001 GMC 6500 because I couldnt STAND the poor quality one more day. MEXICAN transmission (yeah...said "Spicer" on it...a famous old American name...)....Rear axle...said "Eaton" on it....famous American name..from SPAIN !. About the only thing that was REALLY American, as far as I could tell...was SOME of the sheet metal stampings.

[Clipper47]

Wes, You would trade your Packard for an SUV of any origin? I could see you trading for another Packard but not one of those godawful ugly boxes!!

[West Peterson]

No. Of course I wasn't serious about trading. I just think I should have kept my mouth shut. He was just trying to be friendly, and I basically let him know that old-car owners are unfriendly A$$es.

However, I sure liked Ken's idea of a response! Then again, one is about all I can handle (and poorly, at that).

[Clipper47]

West, We all at sometime have said things which are not in the best of good taste but that is life and it is best to just move on and forget it. A spoken word is like a bullet. Once it's shot off it can't be recalled.

[tbirdman]

When I was in the parade, a lady yelled "You're hot"! I responded "and the car's not bad either!" <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The only time I had someone get mad is when I refused to tell him what the car was worth and final said "somewhere between a Pinto and the Space Shuttle".

West...I guess you were just having a patriotic American day <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Packard enthus.]

trick is to try and stay friendly when the whacko comments come in. Of course we all get these "hey..buddy..bet that thing will pass anything 'cept a gas station"....."where did you get tires for that"..? The one that I do have to say has caused me to get just a trace aggravated..is...when they ask me if I BOUGHT IT NEW....!

The old car hobby is going to need all the help we can get, to protect us from all sorts of people..some well-meaning, some not, who want us off the road, out of site, and under "control". My suggestion (and...yeah.I really DO try and follow my own suggestion..but sometimes....) is to take the silly comments with a smile, and try and engage em in a conversation that just MIGHT make a new old car buff....!

[Tom M]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when they ask me if I BOUGHT IT NEW</div></div> Well did you my old friend.... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Packard enthus.]

gggrrr....!

[Clipper47]

"....."where did you get tires for that"..?

And so where do you get tires for your Packard? Are they radials?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

We are all allowed the occasional slip of the toungue. Who knows, something good may come of this - the next time the hapless minivan owner is considering a purchase and has the opportunity to buy American, maybe he will remember what the guy with the neat old car said..

Of course I find one of the easiest ways to draw someone who wants to ask many questions is when you are knee deep trying to figure out some sort of problem.

West, you can make up for it by letting some guy from CT take a ride in that nice Packard some time..

[Dr Morbius]

I honestly feel that no matter where the car was built, if the profits go to a country other than America, it's not an American car !!! Does anyone feel the same way I do? .......Steve

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Agree, Steve. Not a judgement, but we have had 4 Hondas over the years, fantastic fit & finish, but went back to American in the late 90s for a couple reasons - US automakers had closed the quality gap to a large degree by then & even with extensive US operations, foreign companies are foreign companies. Topic has already been covered extensively elsewhere in this forum, but turning over one of the largest industries in the world to foreign countries just does not make a lot of sense to me. I think the quality gap is now largely perception - and at least around here where you may not be viewed as "sophistocated" for driving US brands. We now have 3 everyday cars, 2 2003 Explorers and a used VW for the kid. The Fords have been as trouble free as the Hondas, with both around 75K on them & virtually nothing mechanical going wrong. Interestingly both have had issues with the heater fan, but that is about it. If the US automakers want to attract new buyers I think the one area to focus on is making entry level or economy type cars a bit better, I would agree that is a market secter where quality may be lagging a bit there still.

Back to Packards - I still don't think West committed a cardinal sin!

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I honestly feel that no matter where the car was built, if the profits go to a country other than America, it's not an American car !!! Does anyone feel the same way I do? .......Steve </div></div>

I do. With Japan building something like 1.4 million cars here and importing another additional 2.5 million into the USA each year, the majority of those profits leave our country. Now add a up to $16,200 tax break per vehicle imported into the USA one wonders how the big 3 have survived this long.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">West, you can make up for it by letting some guy from CT take a ride in that nice Packard some time.. </div></div>

Ride?? Shoot, I don't give no rides unless the person doesn't want to drive it! When will we be in the same place at the same time? I'm hoping to have it in Hershey. I should set up a special booth... "Take it for a spin!!"

[Clipper47]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I honestly feel that no matter where the car was built, if the profits go to a country other than America, it's not an American car !!! Does anyone feel the same way I do? .......Steve </div></div>

Two reasons I have owned Ford Crown Victoria's for 25 years is because they are built right here in Ontario Canada,and my dad worked at Ford for 35 years. They have all been d***m good cars! Buy American and Canadian <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

Well West we can rationalize the dubious bastardized heritage of "world cars" all day and the bottom line is the the 1940 Packard was All American. Regardless of whether a Honda was built in Georgia by rednecks the corporate entity off shore still reaps the profits.

Dumping cars and trucks at below-cost prices that couldn't be passed up by the American buying public was how the Japanese auto industry made inroads here. Glutting a marketplace with any item sold for less than it cost to make is not honest competition it's underhanded. Purposely losing money till you build a customer base because you have deep pockets and are able to get into the black is not a standard business practice. That's what they did many years ago and I have no desire to reward underhanded foreign manufacturers auto or other.

Subverting a marketplace is not honest competition.

Anyhow if this guy in the toyota was miffed, you know what they say. **** him if he can't take a joke. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Guest AlK]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The one that I do have to say has caused me to get just a trace aggravated..is...when they ask me if I BOUGHT IT NEW....!</div></div>

the one that frosts my gonads is

"Packard Hmmmmm Uh who made that Ford or Chevy"

It should be legal to put those kinds of people out of everyones misery.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Al, you need to bring a sense of humor to the question. You can always answer they were built by Brobdingnagian Motors located on a peninsula in Southern California which was an independent state when Packards were built there. When the President of Brobdingnagian Motors, Jonathan Swift, died, the citizens lost all interest in providing outsiders with automobiles and only assemble them for the local citizenry. They will provide some parts such as muffler bearings if asked politely.

[Packard enthus.]

For Twitch:

I disagree with you on your theory on how Toyota and Honda got so successful. Price may have had a lot to do with SOME of the people who FIRST started buying their products when they first came into the country. There were some real quality and performance issues with their very first attempts, and that hurt their sales.

But look how fast they learned ! By the time we first started buying Toyota and Honda products (1971 model year) our motivation was based primarily on the reputation for durability they worked so hard to establish.

One of the Packard clubs, prints with each new issue of its newsletter, what a tough and rewarding "master" a reputation for value and quality is. Toyota and Honda seem determined with a vengence to maintain their hard-won reputation for durability and value in the respective price range car you buy from them.

I suggest THAT is their secret for success.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Peter, I do agree both Honda and Toyota worked hard for a reputation for durability - also credit is due to these companies as they drove the US makers to finally start catching up in so many areas..

West, I attend Hershey every year (As I recently told my cousin - "it is great you want to get married in October, but if it conflicts with Hershey, we will wish you the best from PA!) and would love to drive that Packard. Never driven one, but I hear you do not have to speed up for hills and double clutch like the Model A...

Actually hoping to get a chance to drive a friends '40 120 this year. Restoration is almost complete. He has had it 25 years, and while not a novice restorer by any means, for a variety of reasons this car has been started and put off a few times. Watching this one closely as he has hinted about driving it for a season and then selling it.

[Twitch]

Look, the Japanese "dumped" vehicles on the US market. That's a fact. It has nothing to do with their quality which is fine now. In 1971 neither Toyota or Honda had any track record of quality or durability. 1971 was Hondas very 1st car the N600. Not long before 1971 Toyotas were cheeze boxes produced for the their domestic market. Hence in 1971 they had no reputation as good cars in the US.

[6219_Rules]

I can attest to that statement, since our new car for 1971 was a red Toyota Corona Deluxe sedan.

It was a nice car, black interior, and different. Dad specifically asked the Toyota dealer in New Jersey if the car could make the trip out to Montana and back, the answer was an absolute 'YES'... 'You can drive it like any American car!!" So we did. On the way back, the car burned a couple of valves and the engine died. We came into Pennsylvania in a crippled vehicle running bearly on three cylinders. Toyota took the car back, repaired it and we waited until 1972 to buy the same model, now rebadged as the Corolla. The dealer assured us that the problems had been handled and the engine could be driven hard. He was right. It was a hardy car that lasted years. But they had a problem underestimating American driving habits and producing an engine that could handle it.

[Clipper47]

In 1971 I bought anearly new 1971 Chev. Vega to replace my 1969 Plymouth Fury 2 with a 440 Magnum engine. Driven carefully at 55 mph the Plymouth would deliver 18mpg the Vega only got 21! I lent the Vega to my dad for a trip to the east coast and when he returned the car was burning oil so bad I loaded it up with STP and sold it for what I owed. I think the can had less than 30000miles on it. It was the only GM car I ever owned besides my 47 Cadillac which I never drove or licenced. I don't think the American car makers at least GM had a good handle on making a small car work well in North American highway driving any more than Toyota did although I would think they should have. The Pinto was not much better and the Plymouth Valiant was way ahead of the pack in reliability. I subsequently bought an old 66 Volkswagen than gave 40mpg and drove it until 1975.

[Guest bkazmer]

how about considering how the car maker treats the people they do business with, their customers and their suppliers? Isee things that definitely affect my purchases. OEM's that cheat suppliers and steal confidential information are off my list (and the flag wavers need to know that the number one offender is generally considered American).

[West Peterson]

And the Asian countries would never consider stealing patented rights, right?

[Guest 1956Packard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(As I recently told my cousin - "it is great you want to get married in October, but if it conflicts with Hershey, we will wish you the best from PA!) </div></div>

I'm lucky I got married in late September and visited Hershay as part of a honeymoon. (We took a bunch of weeks and travelled all over).

Yes, we're still married.

Geoff

[Guest bkazmer]

West, intellectual property theft goes well beyond patents, but my experience is that it is not a question of the company being Asian, American, European or Martian, just honest or dishonest. Crooks is crooks, and everybody's got 'em.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Geoff, I would call her a "keeper" then - did she express any interest in going again? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Pontiac59]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1971 I bought anearly new 1971 Chev. Vega to replace my 1969 Plymouth Fury 2 with a 440 Magnum engine. Driven carefully at 55 mph the Plymouth would deliver 18mpg the Vega only got 21! I lent the Vega to my dad for a trip to the east coast and when he returned the car was burning oil so bad I loaded it up with STP and sold it for what I owed. I think the can had less than 30000miles on it. It was the only GM car I ever owned besides my 47 Cadillac which I never drove or licenced. I don't think the American car makers at least GM had a good handle on making a small car work well in North American highway driving any more than Toyota did although I would think they should have. The Pinto was not much better and the Plymouth Valiant was way ahead of the pack in reliability. I subsequently bought an old 66 Volkswagen than gave 40mpg and drove it until 1975. </div></div>

The Vega was rushed into production with a poorly engineered motor, I seem to recall they tried to make it lighter by using an aluminum block cast without iron liners for the cylinders, which wore out prematurely. They were also underpowered for the weight of the car. 21 MPG from one of those is terrible, given I was getting over 18 with a 4000-lb '60 Pontiac, with a 389 V8 in it, and you can pull 20 out of a lot of 50's cars with V8 engines depending on what transmission and what gearing they have. But my friend had a 1985 Charger - an Omni with a sportier body - he found from a neighbor with like 4000 miles on it. It too only got 22 MPG. For the 2-3 MPG difference, I'll drive the big Pontiac.

It took GM to completely rethink the small car to get reliability, although when they replaced the aluminum motor with all iron 4 and V6 engines in the Vega and it's clones, and continued to use them in the Monza and it's clones, they were reasonably reliable cars. The 1980 X-cars were good for their day, I had one get me home with a flat I couldn't get changed a few years ago too.

[Clipper47]

Actually in the aluminum block the cylinders were impregnated with silicone and not a liner of steel. I remember being ticked off because the air cleaner came in a non refillable metal canister which you had to buy as a unit at something like $20. All in all not a good experience with Mr. Goodwrench. It has soured me on GM ever since although they have made some excellent cars over the years.

[Guest imported_Packards1]

I remember buying the filter for my brothers vega at the Air Force Base Exchange to save him $ 5.00 on the filter.

[Clipper47]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember buying the filter for my brothers vega at the Air Force Base Exchange to save him $ 5.00 on the filter. </div></div>

And that was when a $5 bill would buy you a 24 of beer! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Randy Berger]

Aaahhh WWI I take it. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Clipper47]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aaahhh WWI I take it. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Maybe that was a 1916 Chevrolet???? I must be getting confused in my old age....? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I remember washing and waxing around the rust of my grandmother's friends two year old Vega sometime in the late 70s to get spending money for my '41 Plymouth. Typical of the era GM fender rot right in front of the doors. Had a Camaro and a Monte Carlo both do the same thing a little later on.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[bernardi]

Re snappy replies to snide remarks -- you might try "Jealousy has reared its ugly head again!"