Interesting Question

[Guest boettger]

I attempting to field a question from a member.

Member has a car that he purchased new. He had the vehicle Ziebarted imediatly upon delivery. Pretty common practice here in the Northeast.

Well, now this car is AACA eligible. The only problem is that the door jambs have the little yellow plugs in the holes that were drilled by the undercoater to get the goop into the hidden areas.

This a real nice very well maintained original vehicle and should do quite well in class judging, except! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

His question is this, "What kind of point deduction, if any can he expect for those little yellow plugs?

Looking for your opinions on this!

[Shop Rat]

How many plugs are we talking about here? And can't they now be taken out and the holes filled and painted to avoid any deduction? One point off can keep him from an award he wants if he can't make the spread.

[Guest John W. Harvey]

I would suggest that the yellow plugs be replaced with black plugs. The black plugs look more natural and tend to blend in with the rest of the vehicle........ regardless of the paint color on the vehicle. Yellow plugs will stand out like a sore thumb!

I'm just guessing...... but in most cases, the black plugs would go un-noticed and result in no deductions.

John

[Paul Dobbin]

I would think in the HPOF class the yellow hole covers should make no difference. Tell you frind to enjoy the car and don't worry about the holes, it's rust holes that count off.

Paul

[novaman]

Before I'd do anything, I'd enter it as is and just see what happens. There shouldn't be but a point or two taken for those plugs. If after a couple tries still cna't get a first JR, then try black plugs.

As someone else mentioned the HPOF class. He might think about this class since the car is orginal. He'll get an award at each meet and won't have to worry at all about the plugs. If it were my car, this is the route I'd go.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As someone else mentioned the HPOF class. He might think about this class since the car is orginal. He'll get an award at each meet and won't have to worry at all about the plugs. If it were my car, this is the route I'd go. </div></div>

That's true David, but if the car is good enough to win a Senior, then they should have no problems getting Preservation Awards after that either. I'm not against the HPOF class at all. I'm glad that the cars are there, but I'd never enter a car in that class. I firmly believe that the cars should be in their respective classes regardless of condition, but I also understand from a judging standpoint and an administrative standpoint, that it is not practical. To park a Packard next to a Volkwagon is a slap in the face to a Packard owner (I don't own either one of those cars, nor am I against either one of those cars).

Nothing against anyone, or anything, but I'd like to see the rules changed, where an unrestored car comes out and goes into one class to get their HPOF certification. Once the HPOF certification gets awarded, the car then goes into the class where it belongs. If the car scores enough points for a First Junior (Senior, AGNM, etc.) Award, the owner gets the award regardless of the 10 point rule. If the car does not score well enough to win a First Junior, then the car gets an HPOF participation award. If the car gets restored beyond the limits of HPOF eligibility, then the HPOF tab should be pulled, and the car then must be within the specified window of points for the award like the restored vehicles now have to be.

Without sounding nasty to anyone, isn't this club centered around the PRESERVATION of antique automobiles??

The cars that have been well preserved should be in with their cars and not bunched together with everything else with wheels. Granted that my father and I restore our cars, those well kept originals deserve every right to be center stage with the restored cars.

If a vehicle is in its' original state, and it is still good enough to win a Senior AGNM award, to me seeing the vehicle with an HPOF badge, First Junior Badge, and an AGNM badge would be a sign to everyone that you'd be looking at a very well preserved vehicle and should be recognized as such. Althouth the current rules requires that an HPOF certified vehicle loses its' HPOF status once it gets put into class judging, I firmly believe that as long as the car still meets HPOF criteria, that it should keep the HPOF badge, but not be restricted from climbing through the awards system as long as it scores the required points for the award sought.

[Restorer32]

Just curious here but can you name one original, unrestored car that has ever won an AACA First (in its original condition)? There may be some, I don't now. That's why I'm asking the question.

[novaman]

I know of one that got it's junoir in Kingsport, TN several years ago. Been long enough ago that I've forgotten what it was.

[novaman]

My thinking at the time of the post was that he could try the judged class but if unsuccessful, then might consider the HPOF.

As for the HPOF cars in the judged classes, I bet someone would love my Chevy II parked next to thier 400 point car. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jim Bollman]

I don't remember the year or if they actually got it, but probably late 70s I remember judging an independent make, Willys sticks in my mind but not sure. I was still a pretty green judge. The car was good enough that we were spending some time with it. I ask one of the other judges what would be the proper point deduction for a run in the paint on the firewall, when the team captain leaned over and told us it was an original car and it was a factory original run.

That experience probably taught me more about not nit picking a restoration than any judging school has.

[ex98thdrill]

Matt Wilson's 1969 AMC Hurst SC/Rambler won a First Junior at Greenburg. I was on the judging team that judged the car. If there was another fully restored car that scored a 400 in his class, would he won it?? Probably not, but the car was good enough to win what he was going for.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the HPOF cars in the judged classes, I bet someone would love my Chevy II parked next to thier 400 point car.</div></div>

In all honesty David, it wouldn't bother me a bit if I had a Chevy II that was all restored and your car was next to mine. If a spectator wants to go to a meet to see Chevy II's, they're going to go look at the Chevy II's. Chances are they'll never think to look two places. If I had a restored Chevy II, and your car is sitting there unrestored, there's probably a strong chance that your Chevy II is in better shape than what my car would've been before I started the restoration.

Most people who have a restored car are a little more reluctant to have fun with their cars than someone who has a car that is unrestored.

[OlJalopy]

Jim & Dave ~ You two may remember Stu's '51 Buick. He was the second owner of the original vehicle that had about 13,000 miles on it when he won a 1st Jr at Hershey, '83. The Senior was awarded at College Park, in '84, after his passing, and the current owner received another Senior at Columbia, in '85. So original vehicles do have a chance.

Regards to all. Happy Spring!! It's snowing outside . . .

[ex98thdrill]

My dad's best friend has a '62 Chevy Impala SS 327 that he bought brand new, he still has the original window sticker, and the car is nice. Due to scratches and door dings from 45 years of driving, the car wouldn't stand a chance with the 10 point rule, but would easily score the points for a Senior.

In your own community, my dad's cousin, the late Ev Lewis, had a 1955 Ford Thunderbird with 18,000 that still has the original tires on the car. That too wouldn't stand a chance against a restored '55 Thunderbird, but the car is good enough for a Senior. Cousin Ev turned down over $40,000 on the car back in 1984, and his daughter Judy still has the car. I don't believe to this day that she has replaced the factory original tires on the car.

In both cases, it would be an insult to both of those cars if they were put in HPOF, but those cars would never stand a chance to a fully restored frame off restoration.

[Jim Bollman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim & Dave ~ You two may remember Stu's '51 Buick. He was the second owner of the original vehicle that had about 13,000 miles on it when he won a 1st Jr at Hershey, '83. The Senior was awarded at College Park, in '84, after his passing, and the current owner received another Senior at Columbia, in '85. So original vehicles do have a chance.

Regards to all. Happy Spring!! It's snowing outside . . . </div></div>

Yes I do remember the Buick. I thought it was restored. Yes a very nice car, even nicer now that I know it was original.

[Guest windjamer]

Jim I agree with you on the nit picin,I have a frend with a 78 mopar. Was his aunts car. Low milage, under 20, absolutly beutiful. Puts it in dpc class because he refuses to detail the engine. Engine is spotless,but paint is mostly gone. All the judges I know say he wont stand a chance for a first without painting the engine. Dont hardly seem fair. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Dick.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim I agree with you on the nit picin,I have a frend with a 78 mopar. Was his aunts car. Low milage, under 20, absolutly beutiful. Puts it in dpc class because he refuses to detail the engine. Engine is spotless,but paint is mostly gone. All the judges I know say he wont stand a chance for a first without painting the engine. Dont hardly seem fair.

</div></div>

I do not think it is a matter of what is "fair", rather, what does your friend desire or hope to attain?

AACA's mission statement: "As the vehicle left the factory".

It is solely up to your friend's goals: Judging, DPC, or, HPOF.

The paint run that Jim mentioned is a manufacturing by-product of as it left the factory. (Corvette overspray, crayon marks/manufacturing process numbering on the firewall, etc.) An un-painted engine block does not fall under "as it left the factory", however, he could still enter it for Class Judging...his choice.

Regards,

PJH

[novaman]

I remember the car (barely due to young age at the time), and I too, thought it was restored.

[Guest Stonefish]

First of...if the car in question "just" became AACA eligible it wouldn't be old enough to compete in HPOF. Unless there has been a change in rules...

Second; I've been showing my 1970 Squareback (yes, a Volkswagen)for about 10 years now. When I started showing it, it had just over 11,000 miles on it. I've had it at numerous Hershey?s, Carlisle and Greensburg AACA events. It has been rewarded with several 2nd Jr's and a Third Jr. I never requested judging sheets...but soon found out that the judges were knocking my car for Cosmoline stains on the inside of the trunk. I also discovered , in conversation with a judge , that I was getting knocked for radial tires...I corrected this the following years by making sure I pointed out the " inflation rates for radial tire " sticker in the glove box.

I understand judges can't know everything about every type of car...hence the reason I don't get to excited about results at such events. I don't plan to show the SB in HPOF because the placement of these cars typically is so far removed from the action...much like the DPC showing of my VW Thing this past Hershey (most of my conversation with people at that event revolved the explanation of the DPC class, shockingly to people wearing AACA gear). I like to be where the people are!

Unless such a rule as: an original car gets awarded an HPOF certification carries the badge into the "judging ring" so the judges know that this is an original car...I would go this route.

I enjoy going to AACA events and feel very honored to win an award. I don't count an AACA award with as much weight as I would an award from a notable VW show. For as strict as the rules are?I?ve seen too many discrepancies. I know of one VW that has been restored and awarded to, at least Senior status, that has had an incorrect sunroof top (for the year of the car) grafted on it...In another case I was at a show where a future National award winning (pictured in the magazine and all) scooter/bike where the following comments were stated to me "I hope we don't have to start these things" "it never held gas in the tank" "not even sure it will start"....... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Since must of the two wheeled classes don?t ride onto the field?don?t they have to prove they run? And this thread started over plugged holes in the door jam.....sometimes I don't get it.

With enough money and time any car can be restored to original...BUT a car is truly only original once, preservation of these cars, in my eyes, is more notable.

[novaman]

I never gave it a thought as to the year in the orginal post, missed the words to affect "now eligable".

As for the two-wheelers, they have to show that they do run. I'm not sure when that is done other than it is prior to the show. The same goes for the race car classes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With enough money and time any car can be restored to original...BUT a car is truly only original once, preservation of these cars, in my eyes, is more notable.</div></div> That is one reason I mention the HPOF class if a car is nice. My '63 Chevy II could stand to be restored but I have two others I'm working on, plus this is a decent orginal car. I can take it to a national meet, park it and walk of and not have to worry about it being judged, and/or if someone would happed to lean on it and scratch it.

[Guest Stonefish]

As for the two-wheelers, they have to show that they do run. I'm not sure when that is done other than it is prior to the show. The same goes for the race car classes. /quote]

That's what I thought...was very surprised to see this particular vehicle win a national award...it obviously placed at Hershey that same year..... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.....again, sometimes I don't get it.

[R W Burgess]

Steve, back to your question about the plugs.....

You never mentioned what color this vehicle was. I bring this up because in 1980 I bought a new, year old, model GMC pickup. It was blue in color. I then had it taken across town to a Zeibart Dealer who did the process on my truck. Since the door jams were blue he put in blue plugs, a very close match. In a passing glance you wouldn't even notice them. As I remember, there were probably at least 6 of these plugs in each door jam.

In those days, that company had pretty much any color you needed to match the body color. It wasn't dealer installed, so you can take it from there.

Wayne

[Guest sparky65]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The cars that have been well preserved should be in with their cars and not bunched together with everything else with wheels. Granted that my father and I restore our cars, those well kept originals deserve every right to be center stage with the restored cars.

</div></div>

I agree last year at Hershey the HPOF class was spreed out in different areas. I was looking for mustangs and i nearly missed a nice one since i didn't realize at first they were spreed out. It definitely would help if they were with the rest of there class. And also were judged with there class. HPOF class is great if the owner of the car really knows what is original and is there to talk. I meet a few people that were third or fourth owners of there cars and were only going by what a previous owner told them. It didn't give me enough confidence that i would want to copy some details from the car. Now if the car also had a Senior badge on it i would have been much more comfortable.

[ex98thdrill]

Understand that when it comes to the judges certifying a vehicle for HPOF, that is why the HPOF cars are all bunched together. From a logistical standpoint, it would not be practical to place all HPOF vehicles into their respective initial classes.

What my suggestions would be is that once a vehicle gets the HPOF certification, put the vehicle in its' class. If it earns the required points for the award that it is going for, give the award regardless of the competition. Keep the point spread in place for the vehicles that have been restored.

Granted I am one voice, and I'm sure that there are ten voices that would disagree.