Poorly made American cars?

[Twitch]

I can't seem to put it any other way. Ok, lets say a 1964 Chevy 283ci had 250HP for the basic engine yet the 327ci had 300HP with equal aspiration. This is from the same small block parents, the 265ci from 1955. With exactly the same engineering from the same manufacturer the larger displacement engine produced more HP.

The whole point is that your modern tech 4 cyl vs the old 350 is not equal, equal since its a 4-valve DOHC & fuel injection. Take that pushrod 350ci with a carb put a 4 valve, DOHV head on it and fuel injection and now things are equal. And now the 350 is the same, same as the mod-tech 4-banger. And now the larger displacement engine produces more HP. Geez, take 2 stinkin 4 clyinder mills from the same manufacturer. The 120ci puts out 100 HP and next year the manufacturer bores and strokes the little turkey to 160ci. The same block now produces 145HP.

The phrase 'there is no substitute for cubic inches' is the creed of speed. If you've tried everything else, go bigger. Land speed record cars, dragsters, gran turismo- any car benefits from more cubic inches.

The tired smogged down old 350 may have less HP that the fancy new-tech 4 but it has more torque and a much broader, smoother torque power curve throughout its RPM range. Peak HP is not the only, and perhaps, not even the most important measurement of power.

[Guest bkazmer]

of course if everything else is equal more displacement will help - but everything else is almost never equal. (Unless all you're doing is boring or stroking, with limited displacement change) My point is that an engine is not better merely because it's larger, and a vehicle with a larger engine is not necessarily faster because it has a bigger engine. There are always a lot of other factors, some of which you point out. You're also using power (work/time) and torque(force x distance) as measures of the same thing - they are not. I agree that peak power is a much over-examined number - it's not a lot of fun to drive a "peaky" car (no plateau) in traffic, although it can be fun with room to play.

And nobody's even mentioned the effects on handling......

[DizzyDale]

Dear Twitch,NOW your talkin.....TORQUE.....Thats the stuff thats tryin to tear your head off when your power shiftin that big block Corvette at 6,500....yahoooooooooo.diz

[R W Burgess]

Hey Dizz, you put a big block in the '62 already??? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[DizzyDale]

Dear Wayne,I am speaking about times in my youth.My 62 is toooooo nice for that.Though i was thinkin about a 500 inch big block and a 4 speed Lenco for the street ..............I just came to my senses ......cancel that previous thought,even iam not that DIZZY.diz

[OlJalopy]

This thread has been interesting to read, and has brought back a lot of memories from my younger days. One of them was a 50's advertising campaign which I still quote once in a while, as my Bride becomes white-knuckled after a near miss with a deer, or some such incident: "Safe, sure stops with a Buick."

This thread also reminded me of my Dad's '57 Chevy 150 four-door, with 3-on-the tree & an in-line six cylinder engine. It was what I learned to drive in, and that car would simply blow the doors off the local rich kid's '61 Impala 283 automatic.

Between us, my Bride and I have had about 20-25 new American-made vehicles, and several used, which we bought for our daughters. Only one vehicle was non-American, and that was a used Nissen pickup, purchased for the youngest to drive, when I needed a big wheelborrow for awhile. That little thing, with a four cylinder engine, ran as smoothly as a V-8. I found out why, when I changed the spark plugs. It had dual ignition, & eight plugs.

I can't say that we had poor quality with any of our cars, except a '78 Lincoln Versailes and an '85 Lincoln Towncar. Even those were very nice vehicles. The '78 had a lot of brake problems; they would apply without pedal pressure. The '85 had an unbalanced flywheel or driveshaft, and the dealer could not eliminate the resultant vibrations. I hated to get rid of that one, but let Ford buy it back, at sticker price, under the Lemon Law

We also had an '81 Coupe deVille, with the 4-6-8 engine, which we had great luck with. Unfortunately, the media killed that concept. We never had a problem with that engine. It was nice to be crusin' at 70, and push the button to see you're on four cylinders, getting about forty miles per gallon.

We now have an '01 GMC Sierra and an '02 Buick Regal GS. They are both good vehicles. The quality in each is as good as in any other that we've owned. The ride may not be as good as in the Caddie or Lincoln, but then they are totally different vehicles. They meet our current needs, and provide just about everything we've expected from them. I don't anticipate we'll ever buy a "foreign" car. Even though many manufacturers have U.S. assembly plants, the "bottom line" and profits are still reported overseas.

This past winter, we rented an '04 LeSabre for a trip to Florida. With four adults and a jammed full trunk, the on-board computer calculated an average of 30 mpg for the total trip of about 3,500 miles, much of it at 65 & above. I think our American manufacturers are doing OK.

I lean more toward the scenario that marketing created the need for a new car more than the poor quality of the trade-in necessitated it.

Now, let me ask a question: If the quality of the American automobile has been so poor in the past, why are so many of us trying so hard to preserve them??

Happy Holidays to to all you DFR's

OJ

[Twitch]

Pocket rockets can be fun for a limited time but not to drive on a dialy basis for me any more. I did my fun time with my B-18 4-cyl in my Volvo 122S. I enjoyed it up to 348,000 miles and moved on. Had a little company car with the then hi-tch Olds Quad 4 in it in the 1989 that could be thrashed by medium-sized V-8s which were unimpressed by the gee whiz cams and valves dinosours that they were with pushrods and such.

Today when I ride in someones V-6 even I sense and hear the wind-up on moderate acceleration that is quite absent in a V-8. I hate that whiny sound anything but 8 cylinders make. But that's just me an Dizzy, I guess.

And OlJalopy, I'm with you on your recollections and feelings. I recently drove my 96 El Dorado Touring Coupe to Las Vegas from L.A. (about a 600 mile round trip) with 5 aboard and a full trunk at the fastest speed I could all things permitting. That was 80-90MPH much of the time. I got just 21 MPG. A steady 70 would give 25MPG. The mid-sized V-8 certainly didn't protest- 29MPH per 1,000RPM once in overdrive. It's the best of both worlds- a perfectly sized V-8 279ci with all the modern hi-tech mech-goodies. The suspension is as stiff when need be as my 1973 Z-28's yet silky smooth most of the time. I quit gymkahana runs with my old TR-3 years ago when I was a kid so I have adequate handling but a go cart will out turn anything, so that's a moot point.

I am not buying anything foreign. Like OlJalopy, I know that buying a foreign car assembled in the US is a cop out. All the research, development, design and tooling was done across the water. Putting the things together is the cheapest part. All the real money on foreign cars assembled in the uS goes to the home country. What do I look like a government foreign subsidy lobbyist?

So with my Northstar V-8 on fairly equal terms with any average 4s and V-6s technology-wise when one of these twerps steps out already going 60MPH and buzzes up to 85 I can effortly cruise past looking bored listening to Ernest Tubbs on the stereo while his mill is screaming like a banshee. Cubic inches does that.

I've spent all the time I care to in economy cars in my distant past and now I will drive what I wish to drive. It's my money and I spend it as I like. It would be sad indeed if the day came when nobody offered a V-8. Thankfully I'll be long gone when that happens.

And by the way, God drives a 426 hemi!

[ex98thdrill]

Joe,

You've heard some excellent examples of good vehicles. I'll have to add that there are several people that I know that drive the Chevy Astro/GMC Safari that have been very pleased with them. Although they may not be buying new ones, it is only because THEIR OLD ONES ARE STILL RUNNING. I do tend to believe that from time to time automakers eliminate a certain engine or vehicle simply because they are too good, and their longevity affects sales.

On the flip side of the coin, I also believe a major contributing reason why japanese imports becan to outsell the american cars in the 70's was due to the fact that back then the american automakers weren't building cars that could compete with the japanese in the terms of our current friend today.... the word GAS MILEAGE!! Living in upstate New York, the cars in the 70's didn't hold up to the salt that well back then. During that time if you had a car that was three years old, usually by the fourth year, you would have rust holes. Today with the six year 100,000 mile rust through warranties, the automakers have made significant improvements in rust prevention. With the combination of gas mileage and corrosion protection, I would say that in many ways the cars are better than they once were.

Some good examples of cars and engines that are no more:

Chevy 327 engine.

Chevy 283 engine.

Ford 312 engine.

Ford 302 engine.

Mopar slant six.

Chevy Caprice (still made, but always been good cars).

Chevy Citation (ugly, but would run forever).

Dodge Dart.

Dodge Diplomat (very tough police cars).

Mercury Grand Marquis (still made).

Olds Cutlass.

Some bad examples of cars and engines that are no more:

Pontiac 301 engine.

Chevy 307 engine.

GM Diesel engines.

Ford 4-cylinder engines.

Mopar 2.3 liter engine.

Chevy Corvair.

Chevy Vega.

Ford Pinto.

Ford Mustang II (yes we have three of them).

Dodge Aspen / Plymouth Volare'

Chrysler's K-car.

International Scout.

AMC Hornet.

[Gregg N]

How can you say the Dodge Diplomat was a good car and the Plymouth Volare/Dodge Aspen were bad cars? They were all the same car. I drove them thru the 80's and I own two, an 87 Diplomat with 255,000 miles with a 318 that I bought in 1999 and a 79 Volare that I bought last week. The Aspen/Volare got a bad rap. They were and are great cars. As far as the rust problems you noted with American cars after three or four years, you are right the American cars had holes in the fenders, doors and quarter panels, but the imports had rusted thru frame rails, rocker panels, floor boards, fenders, strut towers and just about every where else. The American cars were still safe to drive. The imports were not.

[Barry Wolk]

You've rekindled a 5 year old thread.

In reading the entire thread I found this quote that may very well have portend the future. I've been saying this for years.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: De Soto Frank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The auto manufacturers are in the business of making and selling new cars...therefore, they have to be careful not to build a car so good and so durable that it ends-up hurting the market for new cars...(sorry if that sounds kind of goofy...)</div></div>

[jaxops]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Wolk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've rekindled a 5 year old thread.

In reading the entire thread I found this quote that may very well have portend the future. I've been saying this for years.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: De Soto Frank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The auto manufacturers are in the business of making and selling new cars...therefore, they have to be careful not to build a car so good and so durable that it ends-up hurting the market for new cars...(sorry if that sounds kind of goofy...)</div></div>

You've nailed it again Barry!

</div></div>

[Guest abh3usn]

If this were true, planned obselescents, wouldn't <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> all <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> car companies operate the same way? Foreign car companies are in the buisiness of selling vehicles as well. I had a '79 Volare with the slant 6 which was a great car. I think the major problem you find with cars that don't last is lack of maintenance. The slant 6 was an excellent engine. Anyone who's owned one can attest to that. Tere were bad engineering such as GMs manufacturing desil engines on gas engine lines. This created tolerance problems and doomed the desile engines from the start. The American cars are bad thing is just a crutch. We own a Ford Focus which is a great car. Will buy another Ford when the time comes.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Aspen/Volare got a bad rap. They were and are great cars. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I had a '79 Volare with the slant 6 which was a great car. I think the major problem you find with cars that don't last is lack of maintenance.</div></div>

In 1976 I was in college. My father, who knew I was into cars a great deal by then, asked me which economical compact car he should buy. Based on the reputation of the Dart, I immediately told him to buy an Aspen (which was just introduced at the time). He did.

Boy was I sorry!

In PA at that time you could not pass twice-annual safety inspections (they were soon reduced back to annual inspectons, and remain so today) if the body had any perforations due to rust. That Aspen had it's full front clip replaced under warrenty (but no re-paint, we had to pay for that), because the hood and both fenders had already rusted through (multiple areas at least 1" in diameter) <span style="font-weight: bold">when the car was <span style="text-decoration: underline">9 months old!</span></span>

Did you ever drive a brand new car with a Earl Schieb $99 semi-gloss metallic green paint job? I have.

The same car had some sort of rear end problem that was never diagnosed or repaired. It ate back tires at an amazing rate (the first set lasted just over 4,000 miles), and three times in 30,000 miles the rear axle simply locked up while moving, once skidding to a stop from 40 mph 18 inches from a telephone pole. (MY dad was so mad he actually got out and measured it!) Putting the car in reverse unlocked whatever was happening, and off the car drove again (never to repeat it in the hands of the service department).

And those were only the really bad problems.

(BTW, the 2 brl. 318 V8 got all of 13 mpg, 18 hwy, the entire time.)

At least it was pretty fast, for an Aspen.

Could you imagine getting that kind of service from a car today? If my father had not mortgaged his soul to buy the car it would've been ditched within months. As it was he stuck it out for almost 2 years, <span style="text-decoration: underline">giving</span> it away to someone (who took over payments when the balance of the loan was about 1/2 of it's then used value).

Yes, for those of us who lived through those days there were some VERY poorly made cars foisted upon us. Not all were American. Some were even French!

[Guest Siegfried]

I probably should not respond, but what the heck. I bought my 1st. Volkswagen in 1969 after owning 5 disater on wheels USA cars. Granted, they were all used, and I was only 16 in 1966. However, I like to drive, didn't like paying a lot for gas, even then, so VW it was. And they have NEVER let me down. No blown engines, no dropped valves, etc. I did buy 1 Japanese car new in 1978, and what a mess. Rustout heaven on a B-210 Datsun. Since then, only Volkswagen, both air-cooled, and water-cooled. My 1985 Jetta has 310,000 on the original engine. Purchesed in 9/1989 with 44,000 miles. Still rockin 'n rollin at 30MPG local. Somewhere around 35 to 40 highway at 65 plus. The wife has a Jetta, and both daughters have Jetta's. As for me, 2 Jetta's, a Rabbit, a bug, a bus, and a Karmann Ghia, a fleet of Vespa's, and assorted mopeds. Almost forgot, a 1977 37,000 mile almost all original AMC Hornet that I received as a gift from my mother. I do love that car. It could be a 2nd. junior as it sits, but I choose DPC to be followed by HPOF if I'm still here in 2012. So I guess I haven't forsaken the USA car market entirely.

Sorry to see the USA automakers taking it in the teeth, but they sort of earned it. They pay to much to build their cars, and they really don't do much to generate customer loyalty. My opinions.

They definetly do not pay attention to their competition, and market trends. If they had, they would have seen the current problems starting way back in the 60tys and 70tys.

I hope the Big 3 survive, if they don't the auto hobby will have reslly lost out along with the USA economy.

I imagine that right now Ford is in the best shape of all, and somehow that doesn't surprise me. Says a bunch for family ownership.........

[Guest Siegfried]

My previous reply went to dave moon. It wasn't relly meant for Dave. It was 'a general reply' I don't know how to reply without it going to someone. HELP needed, if possible.

[keiser31]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Semi-Intelligent</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My previous reply went to dave moon. It wasn't relly meant for Dave. It was 'a general reply' I don't know how to reply without it going to someone. HELP needed, if possible.

</div></div>

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