BCA Modified Division

[Guest imported_BCAOffice]

If the BCA was to start a Modified Division, similar to the Reatta Division, the Buick Driving Enthusiasts Division, and the Performance Division, how many BCA members would be interested in joining? The cars would have to be BUICK. No Buicks with Ford, Chevy, or "other kind" of running gear, no "other kind" of car with Buick running gear, etc, etc. If such a Division was formed, would those who are interested in participating have ideas as to a BCA National judging format? Keith Horsfall (owner of a modified and beautiful 1965 Riviera)has taken the time to propose a judging format similar to the BCA 400 point system, and it looks pretty good, but who would the judges be? A suggestion to have "peer judging" for the Modified class has been offered. This is just a "feel out" questionaire to see what the overall thoughts might be as to interest. Please respond with ideas and we'll take the info to the Hershey BCA Board of Directors meeting October 11th.

Mike & Nancy Book

BCA National Office Managers

[Bill Stoneberg]

I would be interested.

Judging would have to based on workmanship and style. You can't very well judge on originality.

Workmanship could be divided into engine, engine compartment, interior, trunk, exterior, paint and chrome (or lack of it).

A lot of items could fall into the style category but that would be more subjective. Does the car flow together or does it look funny with the blower sticking up through the hood ? Do you like the 18 " wheels or not.

How about the read and white tuck and roll interior ? Does it go good with the lime green paint ? Speaking of paint, does the canary yellow flames go good with the above paint ?

I kinda used extreme examples for the style portion to show what could happen. Most people wont be that extreme.

Peer judging would be the fairest way. They are the ones who know what it takes to get the car to that point.

One question, will this include lowriders ?

I like the idea and would join.

[Dave@Moon]

As long as my comments on the original thread on this subject (repeated below) are considered, I think it's a great idea. I wouldn't want to be a judge, or a car qualifier for that matter. For instance, what do you do if someone shows up with a nailhead hooked up to a Muncie? What if a nice GS-X custom happens to use a Ford rear end? Or just Corvette brakes (and therefore hubs)?

You're going to need a lot of fine lines drawn.

[color:"red"]<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">From 2/2/03:</span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The AACA is currently trying to address this problem by creating a non-judged "Driver's Class" and the "Hot Rod" class currently limited to modifications made before 1949, although that'll likely change sooner of later. While the Driver's Class has been a rather benign addition, there is a lot of controversy ( ) regarding the Hot Rod class (Class 37). This is why. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> One of the peculiarities of today's car market is that a great many cars are in a stage where they're worth more financially in a modified "street rod" state than they are as authentic restorations. These cars are largely, but not exclusively, the 1930-1950 coupes and convertibles, as well as most pickup trucks and (watch this one) many later model luxury cars! Watch the prices for Rivieras, Electras and Wildcats offered for sale. It can be very common these days for the chopped, crate-motored, monochromed version to be more desirable (and therefore more valuable) than the stock car. As a result it has become VERY common to find and site examples of completed award winning restorations being put to the acetylene for the sake of today's hot rod market. (It is simply cheaper to do it that way than to start with the proverbial rusted out hulk most of us envision as the source material of choice for hot-rodders.) </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> By admitting "modified cars" willy-nilly with no thought out definitions of what is and isn't acceptable, the club could find itself bestowing it's blessing on actions and creations that I'm sure most members would find revulsive. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Therefore I beg upon the Board and any members called upon to define this category to be extremely careful as to the definitions given and the terms used. The Buick you save could be your own. </div></div>

Owing to these kinds of problems, the AACA has given up on Class 37 for now.

[WillBilly53]

I'm definitely in. I don't know anything about judging and i hadn't planned on showing my car neccessarily, but i'd be highly interested in this. I'm trying to put the majority of my '53 Super in it's original working condition. the only thing i'm going custom on is the paint job and interior. but as far as the mechanics, i'll soon drive the rebuilt 322 V-8, dynaflow to many places singing along to what ever i can pick up on the AM sonomatic. i think this is a great idea.

[Guest imported_SKYSTHELIMIT]

You can count me in as I'm currantly building a modified 70 Buick Skylark 4-DR. Suicide rear doors, air suspension, 4 lcd screen tv entertainment system and the list goes on and on.

A few of my ideas for judging are as follows

As far as the custom parts go more points should be awarded if its a one of a kind. Something that either you or someone else made and not the mass produced type available at the local auto parts store. Then deductions for the part if it was poorly made and/or installed.

Dedutions also for mods that go way over the top as three or more sets of mirrors on the doors, huge rear wing and other junk like you see in the import modified cars.

Major deductions if the modification of the car is (totally) illegal for road use. Not counting items that are only illegal if used while driving like undercarrage neon lighting systems.

Deductions for mods that somehow are suspose to operate like powered sunroofs and stereo systems that do not work.

Of course all the obvious ones like how clean the car is, how well everthing molds together, the overall condition of the car such as paint, bodywork, and so on.

Last but not least you can use all of the existing juding laws for all of the aspects of the car that are still original except for the color of the parts.

Thats all I kind think of for now.

[Buicksplus]

Well, here's my two cents: I suggest we forget about any structured judging the modified cars. For all the problems judging restored orignal cars, it is far worse with modified machines. I suggest we just leave it to participant judging, and let everyone compete for votes with their stuffed animals, poster boards, trophies and curb appeal.

The fact is, all types of collector car judging has become very tedious, difficult and contentious. If you've ever run a car event, you'll see how hard it is to come up with judges and to try to do a fair an objective job. There is almost always criticism and protest of the results. At least with participant judging, no one takes it too seriously.

I would leave the judging to perhaps a few, concours level restorations. These cars can at least be judged against reasonable standards, and only a few cars at each meet would be pre-qualified for concours judging.

Did anyone miss judging at the recent Centennial? Personally, I was relieved to be spared hours of first, second and third trophies for class after class after class of cars. True, I don't have concours cars and don't intend to have any, but I have run quite a few car events. I think the concept of car events being platforms for judging cars is way past its time. I am sure the organizers of the Centennial realized this, and that is why it was a non-judged event.

So, I would not waste time coming up with modified standards. They are welcome to the club, just like any non-concours car is, and stick to participant judging only. And consider eliminating judging of restored cars as well.....

Bill

[The Old Guy]

You can count me in for supporting the modified division. I think that no matter how you judge, I am sure you will still have people unhappy about the system!It will be almost impossible to design a form that can effectively judge all the different things done to modified cars!one of my pet peeves about modified judging is that a car with a fancy paint job and a set of wheels wins over a car with a complete power train swap, a chopped top and dozens of mods that are so subtle that the average guy does not even notice them. I think that participant judging is probably the best way to go ,as the guys that build them know them best.

[NTX5467]

I concur that we should have some sort of recognition for Buicks which have been tastefully and innovatively customized, thereby accenting the basic style the cars had to start with. There are some fantastic customized Buicks out there!

One thing might be lumping all of the cars into one Modified class. It might take the same level of execution to put a street rod and a street machine into a show-ready situation, but having them show together in the same class might cause some problems. Especially as those two designations of vehicles never do mix in other events. Street Rod = 1948 and prior; Street Machine = 1949 and newer AND the "twain never meet". I don't suspect many "Import Tuner" type vehicles or vehicle modified in that manner, but I suspect that might be a fringe situation at best.

Basic definition would need to be: Buick Body, Buick designed engine (except in those instances where a Buick came with a GM engine from another division of GM), Buick/GM transmission, Buick/GM rear axle, Buick/GM frame, and maybe a spec of having the appropriate GM bolt pattern on the wheels. I might recommend that all vehicles be roadworthy and licensed, but that could be open to discussion.

As some of the modified cars would be like WillBilly mentioned, there would be many that were more highly modified. It would be nice if those two variations did not have to show against each other. Hence, depending on what showed up could well determine what class/sub-class trophies would be awarded.

Judging could well be done by the participants, who hopefully put in enough "hands-on" work on the vehicle instead of contracting it out. One twist that I ran across in the early Muscle Car Shootout car shows was: Participants with cars showing in a particular class judged only that class, but did not judge their own car. That concept has a certain amount of credibility in it, but might make it a little harder to make sure you had all of the judging sheets in unless you put all of the different vehicles on one sheet/judge.

I concur that craftsmanship and workmanship qualities are important, just as well executed innovative designs are. Perhaps some experts from the GoodGuys group could be requested to oversee the judging? Plus some custom car magazine people (who might desire to be at the event to scout out new feature vehicles)? Perhaps the GoodGuys people or the Buick Street Rod group could be enlisted to determine the Best of Show-Modified award? Several possibilities!

In the earlier days of the BCA, I suspect the awards presentations were more manageable than they have become with advancing time and the number of cars and classes being judged each year. It might take several "divisions" of awards and presentations to keep the main event more manageable or present them in the afternoon instead of at the main banquet.

In one respect, the main event presentations will be for the "traditional" BCA awards, which might be the more important ones to the mainstream BCA members. The awards for the Modified class would be equally as important to that group of people also, but the orientation of that group might be that they'd rather get their trophies in the afternoon on the showfield? There would be some things to get worked out.

To me, the key thing for the BCA to work toward is to be totally inclusive of ALL Buicks on the planet and not just the "original" ones. ALL Buicks should have a place in the BCA and if those proud Buick owners desire to show those Buicks in a BCA National Meet, then I'd hope there would be some sort of class structure to allow that, even if they were non-judged display classes.

The down side of that would be that the yearly events might grow in proportion of size and complexity. But if the main complexity of the show is the 400 point cars and such, then that aspect might become more daunting to orchestrate. Greater complexity is inevitable as each year brings new cars into show eligibility status and the older vehicles might not drop out of the mix.

The up side would be a more "show within a show" concept. The Driver's Class, the Modified Class(es), Archival Class, Display Class, etc. would be additional draws for the public and BCA members alike. If orchestrated correctly, I suspect they could all co-exist at the same meet, hopefully. Not to mention membership growth of the BCA.

I know that other national car club organizations might be considering similar classes for non-original configuration vehicles -- and it's good to keep tabs on what they're doing for a general reference -- but I feel that what the BCA does needs to meet the needs of the Buick enthusiasts and not be specifically a copy of what other national clubs might do. Perhaps we can come up with some solutions that they didn't even consider or knew existed--plus look good and show some class and leadership in the process!

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Matt Harwood]

I know I'll be in the minority, but I don't really think that modified cars need judging aside from perhaps peer judging. To try to develop a set of standards to judge what are sure to be wildly different cars could be impossible. Is the winner the guy who spent the most money (that '34 sedan that was in the last Bugle comes to mind)? The fastest? The one with the most original parts still on it? It could turn into a real bag of worms with owners having no real idea of how to compete. At least with a restoration, you know the standards against which your car will be compared. But when you're modifying a car, you do it to your personal tastes. Concours cars get feedback on how to get better, but what do you tell the guy with a rod when he wants to know how to do better next time? Spend more money on a different color? change the wheels? Those aren't answers.

We all remember that guy on Ebay a few months back with the circusmobile Buick sedan--he put some effort into it, but we all scoffed at it. If that car showed up to play in the modified class, what would happen?

At most street rod events I've been to, the awards are wholly based on individual tastes, and the awards themselves reflect that: best paint, best interior, ladies' choice, sponsor's choice, etc. Those awards are typically picked by a small group of people or by vote of the participants. But to assign a group of judges to compare a '28 sedan with a 455 to a '56 lowrider is an exercise in futility, in my opinion.

If we really need to judge everybody's car in order to get more people involved, then I'm for it. But I think the judging for such cars should be based on popular opinion or picked by experts in each particular field (paint, upholstery, etc.). I think we'll see that no car is all things to all people, and that rods will be very polarizing in most cases. Assigning a fixed set of standards will only increase that and make it disadvantageous for people to build the cars the way they want them.

Just my thoughts...

[WillBilly53]

this is one of the hardest things to deal with as an artist. I am a painter, musician, filmmaker, etc. these things are my life. the one thing i've had to learn to deal with is rejection. as an artist you are putting your heart and soul out there along with blood, sweat and tears. to have some hot-shot professor from some new york art school come to a show i've entered work in and judge sometimes makes by blood curdle. further more to not get any recognition from the same type of work that goes into the restoration/cusomizing of these beautiful cars is frustrating at times. yes it is it more expensive doing automobile work, but artwork and music is not pocket change either. the quality of paints, the brushes, and even the thinner, mineral spirits, can affect the outcome. the same as music. if you have the $200 dollar junior crap kit from your local pawn shop you aren't gonna get the sounds you want if you intend to do some john bonham (led zepplin's drummer for those who don't know) sounding drums. then there's microphones which are EXTREMELY expensive depending on the sound you want. studio time, etc. you get the idea. and then for what to play at a bar full of 2 people? to never even get a record deal. to constantly be told you sound like (insert any band right here) it's all rejection. this is my point. rejection is most evident in the arts BECAUSE there is no standard, it is opinion. it can come down to how the particular judge "feels" that day. rejection is expected. this is NOT pessimistic. it is realistic. and us "artsy fartsy" types have to deal with. as well as everybody else in their own situations.

but rejection is a price i have, am willing to, and will always take. of course people are gonna think their modified is the best thing on the show field. they should. just because they don't win an award from some random judge who prefers lo-rider small trucks doesn't mean their work isn't worthy.

the modified division would be of a more artistic nature. you would have rotating judges (to not get one judge's opinion everytime). all above being said, I would hope there would be more than one award.

there are juried custom shows everywhere. and i personally think it would be simply awesome just to see what and how a fellow buick owner modified their beautiful & beloved buick!

[HurstGN]

I'll add my .02 in here as well, since my daily driver is a modified Buick consisting of parts from 11 different cars rolled into one. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Lets forget about the custom made, one of a kind parts gets big points thing and aftermarket is frowned upon. Do this, and you've just told the aftermarket you have no need for them. This just discourages restoring and modifying cars in the first place. Peer judging will naturally give credit to the custom work, be it one of a kind, or well executed aftermarket parts. It's all in the attention to detail.

I'd think the biggest "requirement" is to have a way for the participants to plainly identify and communicate to the spectators what is modified on the vehicle, how extensive the modification is, and why it was modified. In my case, my car is modified to take attention away from what the car originally was. (It's a daily driver, it's a Grand National, I don't want it stolen, so I disguised it <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) I did a good enough job that some experts couldn't identify the car without looking at the RPO sticker.

Award what's appealing to the eye, streetable, and meets the builders purpose whether you agree with the purpose or not. You'll be able to tell a blank check job from a 10 year labor of love in a garage. The owner will communicate the work done. If you want to award a blank check job the points, it's your peer vote. I'll most likely award the labor of love, even tho it may have slight imperfections. And if it's a labor of love and has no imperfections, all the better. I'll also consider the fact not everyone has the ability to do this kind of work, and give consideration if the owner at least had a vision of what he/she wanted and had built. Yup, judging in a modified format is gonna be a bear, but I can imagine the cars will be really neat to see.

[NTX5467]

As much as rejection might be part of the territory in artistic endeavors and activities, there are still some "technical" aspects of the artwork/music or whatever it is that's being considered. I would hope this "technical" aspect of things would be the prevailing method of judging any modified vehicle in a higher level show event.

Rejection can also be part of a feedback loop of continuous improvement if it's considered correctly. It might indicate that a different direction might be in order too. In any case, the sense of objectivity, focus, and thicker skin can be necessary to achieve the desired results.

Unlike the normal BCA 400 point judging, whatever judging criteria would have to be with respect to the other cars that did show up instead of some arbitrary standard. This judging format would be more in line with other shows where there are awards for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place. There could still be awards for the best decade (i.e., Best '40s, Best '50s, Best '60s) vehicles too with one grand prize "Best of Show". Sure, these awards will be "what trips peoples' triggers" and determined by a group of judges or participants or whomever, but that doesn't mean these awards would be meaningless or the vehicles would not deserve them either.

As for the major trophies, I suspect something similar to what many rod & custom shows have. A Best of Show plus all of the "Outstanding ________" awards might be a good start. It might also be possible that, with a little coaxing and growing of the modified class, some aftermarket vendors might desire to get involved in sponsoring the trophies in the areas their products are used (i.e., Dupont or SherwinWilliams or others might sponsor a paint or color award, Holley or Edlebrock or others might desire to sponsor an engine award). Getting things built up so these vendors would desire to get involved might take some time, but it would help the whole thing grow in a mutually beneficial manner. This aspect could also remove much of any judging duties from the event organizers too, except for possibly some popular vote awards. Buick could even sponsor something if they desired to get involved. Lots of possibilities.

If things get off the ground well enough, I suspect the National Street Rod Association might desire to help spread the word of the new venture, but I suspect most of their members will have Chevy powerplants in their Buicks. The fact that a modified class does exist might increase the desire of those who might desire to build a modified Buick vehcile to do so and keep it ALL Buick too. It could also help the Buick Street Rod Association too. Lots of synergistic angles here.

I suspect the key thing right now is to just get things off the ground and make it fly for now. I know there are probably many BCA members that do not like modified Buicks as that took an original Buick out of the restoration loop, BUT it also has kept many Buicks from being neglected and destroyed or CRUSHED by putting them in another loop of modified vehicles that allowed them to escape their ultimate untimely fates. Both orientations have merit, just from different angles. "Preservation" has many faces.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest John Chapman]

It's been done well before.

For the Buicks, how about just a few simple rules in addition to the above:

1. Body has to be Buick

2. Chassis has to be Buick

3. Motor has to be Buick

4. Must have four wheels

5. Must be street legal and registered

I guess you could add a class for modified racers, too. More trophies for the crowd.

JMC

[brad54]

Count me and my (back-burnered) '54 Special in.

Here are some of my thoughts, as a magazine editor who goes to a lot of shows, both "purist" and modified.

The best show I go to every year is Year One's Bristol Bash. The judging is "celebrity pick" where all the editors, special guests (Linda Vaughn, Floyd Garret, etc) walk the show field and choose their favorites. Then the slips are collected, and the three cars that got the most attention get the recognition. The best cars always stand out on their own, without a judging sheet. At that show, modified cars compete equally with restos--last year's winner was a modified, home-built Chevy II with Corvette engine and suspension, and frankly didn't have the bodywork to wear black paint, but won because it was a legit home build, beating a lot of check-book cars. Second place was the nicest Tri Power restored GTO you've ever seen. Considering almost all the editors there work for modified magazines, that's really saying something.

As someone building a car, I'd much rather win a People's Pick than from a judging sheet.

Also, judging sheets are negative by their very nature: "You lose points because of this... That's not good enough...etc." I hate telling people their car is bad or lacking.

My vote is for People's Choice.

Now, for the Criteria: My '54 Buick will be period-correct for about 1959: Fully built '56 322, extensive but very subtle body mods, slight lowering and 4-wheel finned aluminum drums with the stock '54 full wheel covers.

But it wouldn't be able to attend according to criteria others suggested, because I'm going to convert to an open driveline to have better highway cruising: I've got an old Cragar adapter bellhousing that will put a '57-'64 Ford T-85 3spd O.D. trans behind my Nail, and I'll probably have a Mopar 8 3/4 out back on a modified Chevy Truck-style trailing arm suspension, with the original Buick coil springs and lever shocks.

What about other common vintage trans adapters? How about putting a late model Chevy OD auto behind it--it's not Buick. And the Ford 9-inch is under everything now, with good reason. What if someone grafts in an aftermarket front suspension that's based off of Mustang II components? Those are even finding their way under a lot of later model muscle cars, let alone '40s street rods. What about a Corvette suspenion under an Apollo? Particularly with a 'vette LT1. Or a Mustang II kit up front with a 9-inch out back?

What about the Track roadster I'd like to build some day? It'll have the 264 I'm pulling out of the '54, with finned drums all around, on a custom built frame with a '57 Chevy rear end. It'll have a '54-55 dash in it, too, and probably another set of '54 wheel covers. I may or may not start out with a Buick body--If I get good, I'll hammer form my own (but I digress). Who knows what transmission I'll have.

I'd stick to a Buick body or a Buick engine--must have one, but not both--and leave it at that--not trans, rear end and chassis. If someone can get another chassis under a '57 and make it work well and look good, then why not? I don't like seeing it any more than the rest of you, but the small block Chevy is in everything, and it'd be stupid to leave a high quality '55 that's perfect in every other way out in the parking lot because it's got a 350sbc in it.

Let it on the field--the point is to grow the shows--but I think it's safe to say in a People's Choice situation, the SBC engine is going to be passed over. I don't like seeing a small block Chevy in a really nice '32 or '40 Ford either, unless it's a period-built car, where an engine swap would have been appropriate. And frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing a 500-inch Caddy motor in a '40s Buick.

On a final note, for inclusion at the Mopar Nationals--a fanatic group if ever this was one--they say it must be Mopar powered only. So my friend showed up every year with his '34 Ford pick up truck with the 354 Hemi, and was well received.

As for that whole '49 cut off thing--street rods versus hot rods--I've noticed that only seems to matter to the old guys (no offense) who cared back in the '70s when the street rodders didn't want relatively late-model '55 Chevys or then-current production muscle cars at their events. Today, they're all old cars to me, be it a '32, a '55 or a '72. (I'm 32). I'd let the modified GNs show with the modified '32s, '48s, '56s and '71s!

Brad Ocock

Tech Editor

Super Rod, Street Rod Builder, Chevy Rumble, American Rodder, Rodder's Digest

(that was probably a little more than two cents' worth, but...)

[The Old Guy]

I feel that the engine and body should be Buick ,but the rest of the drive line should be optional. There are some good reasons for using other drive line parts. The first thing that comes to mind is that the overdrive trannies and the good rear ends were not available from Buick. I have seen some KILLER cars sporting Corvette independent rear end set ups ,and the overdrive is almost a necessity today.

My 37 has a Camaro rear end,and a Mustang 2 front end, and my 72 GS has a 200-4R ,and they work just fine

[BUICK RACER]

I think Buick Body and drivetrain, who cares about the frame, or other stuff. Looks like a Buick, smells like a Buick, it's a Buick. Now, on the other hand the comment about having to be 'roadworthy' cuts a bunch of pure Buick Race cars out of the picture, as we have some awesome Buick race cars that run in the 7-9 second range that might have a tube chassis, fiberglass body parts, but they are Buick powered and still look like a Buick, they may have to be trailered to the showfield, cause they are too loud to drive, but bring 'em on!

As far as trying to judge a modified car to a point system, good luck, doing peer judging doesn't work well either, becomes a popularity contest, but bringing in the local Street Rod club, like North TX did in '96 and wiil do again in '04 is the most logical thing to do, they like cars, and will be objective in their selection based on their ideas of a cool modified car, so that's just my .02. We have to welcome the modifieds no matter what, they are also a part of history, sustaining the Buick legend!

[NTX5467]

Thanks for the input, Brad. Glad you're still coming around!

As for the Mopar Nats group, the "Mopar Powered" orientation mirrors what the Super Chevy group requires of the vehicles that enter those events. You missed the Mercedes 450 roadster that turned up with a 426Hemi in it when the show was at IRP. This was waaayyy before the later "German connection".

I have been accused of being a purist in the past. I've seen the street rods and such that all tend to have the requisite small block Chevy in them. I ALSO know that it usually takes some additional restraint and a higher degree of execution to not follow that trend. I like to see Fords with Ford engines, Mopars with Mopar engines, and Buicks with Buick (or appropriate GM for the model and year) engines PLUS similar corporate identity batteries under the hood (i.e., Ford-Motorcraft, Chrysler-Mopar, GM-ACDelco) too. I know it takes more "trouble" to do these things, but the mere fact that someone went to the extra trouble, just as having a "home done" car instead of a "check book" car, usually can end up with a better vehicle in the end.

I know that Street Rodding got its start when you went to the wrecking yard and searched for a "big car" motor and related drive train. They had the biggest motors and stronger rear axles (the open driveshaft cars such as Pontiac and Olds and Cadillac) and that was why there were so many Olds, Buick, and Chrysler early Hemi powerplants in those cars back in the '50s and earlier '60s. That's why some of the old dragster or quarter mile racers chased Olds or Pontiac rear axles too. 3-speed OD trans (of various brands) were common as were some of the GM 4-speeds, most of which required the bellhousing adapters to make them work (where the beloved JCWhitney catalog might come in handy). No one really worried about "purity of brand" back then, you just wanted to go fast and show your chrome. That's the heritage of Street Rodding and early hot rodding.

The distinction of Street Rod or Street Machine might be vanishing as time progresses. One reason might be the complexity of each group doing their individual shows so they decided to possibly merge in some venues to have bigger shows and such. I wanted to mention that deal in my earlier post just to make sure it would be considered here if it needed to be.

I concur that "benchmark" judging, as I term it, can be a much better way to judge something of this nature than using a judging sheet. The only objective would be "which one is totally BEST" and how do the others relate to it. As mentioned, the better cars will stand out. There will always be "check book" cars in any show event, which will usually raise the bar of excellence, but I'd just as well see something that has been very well done and executed by an indivdual (possibly with the help of his car club associates who pool their collective expertise and resources) just like seeing an original, unrestored stock car over a complete restoration (which, depending on the expertise of the restorer, might have many of the historical paint stamps/daubs removed in the process).

I know there are lots of non-Buick-powered vehicles modified vehicles out there. Although my orientation would be that the modified class vehicle would need to be as much Buick as possible (or Buick/GM in many cases) and personally consider such a vehicle to be of the "higher degree of execution" I mentioned, I also know that there might need to be some bending of that to accomodate the vehicles built prior to the execution of the modified class. Perhaps these other things could be considered with relationship to the year of the particular vehicle?

I know there are reasons why everyone jumped on using the Mustang II front end stuff. I know there are reasons why the Ford 9" rear axle became the "industry standard" for rear axles in race cars and street rod/street machine vehicles (i.e., in production since the late '50s, LOTS of them around, rear disc brakes from the Lincoln Versailles, durability, design architecture, less power consumption) too. These are valid reasons just as using a Buick, Olds, Cadillac, or Chrysler Hemi V-8 in a '32 Ford street rod made sense "back then" or a 350 Chevy might make sense in more modern times.

As for street legal, I'd concur with that orientation too, plus give some consideration to race only entries (not street legal OR licensed). In some states, using the small block Chevy engine can and has caused the vehicle owners some problems due to the "newer engine in earlier chassis" criteria for street driven vehicles. Meaning that a TPI350 out of an IROC-Z28 would need to have ALL of the emissions items from that "later vehicle" put onto the "earlier vehicle" to be street legal, not to mention being required to meet the yearly vehicle emissions inspection requirements. Not something that many considered when they bought all of those Tuned Port Injection units back in the '80s. So, using a Buick V-8 can now be a better option. Of course, I also believe that all of our more vintage vehicles need to be as ecologically friendly as we can make them (regular maintenance and "no exhaust smoke" from over-rich mixtures) or as much as they would have been if brand new.

Given all of the orientations mentioned, I'm sure we CAN determine which ones might best suit the orientations of the BCA -- and -- also give us a Modified Class at the shows that would include modified Buicks in the annual celebrations of Buick vehicles.

Of course, sometimes the best criteria might be the fewest, without sacrificing any "standards" in the process. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[brad54]

I agree that "road worthy" shouldn't be a criteria for the above mentioned reasons. And as much as I dislike trailered cars, they usually are the nicest ones in attendance.

I actually like it when guys trailer an under construction car to a show and display it as a work in progress. In fact, there's often more to be seen on a car like this. Certainly not roadworthy, but fun to look at!

Not to stir the stink pot, but what if someone builds a car that didn't exist and powers it by a Buick? Like a pick up truck or something. Makes a phantom car as a "what if?" What about Max Bachlowski's Ol Yeller cars (excuse the spellings)? Obvious Buick history here, but a similar thing couldn't attend the show if non-buick bodied cars aren't allowed.

I guess I'm up to about a buck's worth now. Sorry.

-Brad

[HurstGN]

If "road worthy" isn't going to be a criteria for entrance to the show field, then can we split things up just a bit...1) Trailered - Complete 2) Driven - Complete 3) Work In Process (driven or trailered). Maybe only the class 2 cars be road worthy, since they are driven onto the field.

This would keep it to at least modified apples competing against modified apples. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />