Engine oil

[ken77]

What engine oil do you guys recommend for a 1929 chrysler 65?

[JFranklin]

Try a good 10-30.

[Hemi Joel]

If the engine has been rebuilt, or disassembled and thoroughly cleaned in the era of detergent oils, I would use Valvoline VR1 racing oil. It still has all the zinc to preserve the cam and lifters. Your choice of weights depending on temperature. In summer, 20W-50 for me.  I buy it right off there website. If you sign up, you will be notified when they have sales.

If the engine has only been run on non-detergent oil, you have to use non-detergent or risk damage from dislodged sludge plugging oil passages. 30W should be fine except in winter. 

[ken77]

Can I use a synthetic? What about adding zddp?

[Hemi Joel]

In the transmission and rear end, do not use the newer GL5 gear lube. It can damage any bronze or brass sleeve bearings. GL4 is still available.

[Hemi Joel]

I wouldn't use synthetic unless you are trying to start it when it is 20 below zero. It leaks alot more and there is no benefit.

[29 Chandler]

My personal experience with synthetic oil in our 1914 Chandler Six has not shown it to leak any more or less than conventional oil. I am using the same weight oil as before so I did not expect any difference. The only reason I chose to use synthetic was to get a better additive package since my engine does sit a lot.

 

For your Chrysler I would focus more on how clean your engine is now? Has the pan been cleaned out? How often were oil changes done in the past? When these cars were new they all used a non-detergent oil. Adding a modern detergent oil could break up a lot of sludge that might be sitting in the bottom of your oil sump. If your car does not have a good oil filter than all of these contaminates will be picked up and sent down the tiny oil galleys. 

 

Do some research as there is a lot of discussion on this topic in the past. Pretty much all oil you can buy today (at the correct weight) will be fine for your engine.

 

[JFranklin]

Before you use any oil and if the car is new to you, Drop the pan and clean the crankcase and valve chamber. Check the oil pump and then not worry too much about your choice of oil. If it smokes give it a ring job. If leaks are found new gaskets are in order. You can't enjoy an antique car without maintaining it. 

[31 LaSalle]

2 hours ago, JFranklin said:

Before you use any oil and if the car is new to you, Drop the pan and clean the crankcase and valve chamber. Check the oil pump and then not worry too much about your choice of oil. If it smokes give it a ring job. If leaks are found new gaskets are in order. You can't enjoy an antique car without maintaining it. 

Good Advice

[EmTee]

The cheapest motor oil available today is vastly superior to anything available in 1929.  Using VR-1 is overkill, but it will certainly work...

[Jeff Deringer]

I personally use 10w-40 or straight 40 weight in all my old cars.  I read an technical paper once written by Valvoline that explained that 10-40 will do everything that 40w will do, plus have the added benefit of being less viscous at startup.  So either one is fine with me.  I don't see any reason to use synthetic in an old car other than to spend more.

[Dr B]

18 hours ago, Hemi Joel said:

If the engine has only been run on non-detergent oil, you have to use non-detergent or risk damage from dislodged sludge plugging oil passages. 30W should be fine except in winter. 

I know this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. My recollection from all the discussions is that detergent oils do not/will not cause any problems, period. The term is a misnomer. Detergent oils suspend the contaminants in the oil and this allow the oil filter to remove them. Non-detergent oils simply allow contaminants to fall out of suspension in the oil pan and engine passages.  To my knowledge, detergent oils do not remove/dislodge built up sludge. The only way to do that is to pull the engine block and have it cleaned.

 

Robert 

[Hemi Joel]

2 hours ago, Dr B said:

I know this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. My recollection from all the discussions is that detergent oils do not/will not cause any problems, period. The term is a misnomer. Detergent oils suspend the contaminants in the oil and this allow the oil filter to remove them. Non-detergent oils simply allow contaminants to fall out of suspension in the oil pan and engine passages.  To my knowledge, detergent oils do not remove/dislodge built up sludge. The only way to do that is to pull the engine block and have it cleaned.

 

Robert 

Well, the experts can pontificate 'till the cows come home and claim it's not a problem because it didn't happen to them. Certainly it doesn't happen every time. 

I personally have had 2 perfectly good engines suffer oil related failures within 100 miles of using detergent oil when it had never been used before. And 1 of them I had already removed the pan and cleaned out the sludge. That one lost a cam lobe. The other one lost a rod bearing. Coincidence? There exists pockets of sludge within an old non-detergent engine.  When it gets washed away, where will it go? Into a small oil passage that won't pass it? Many old engines do not have a full flow oil filter. The tiny copper tube to the filter could become clogged with sludge. The stuff that settles in the pan get picked up by the pump and recirculated. 

 I'll not take that chance again. Staying with non detergent is easy enough. 

To quote Clint: "do you feel lucky?"

Edited Thursday at 09:35 PM by Hemi Joel (see edit history)

[ABear]

4 minutes ago, Hemi Joel said:

I personally have had 2 perfectly good engines suffer oil related failures within 100 miles of using detergent oil when it had never been used before. And 1 of them I had already removed the pan and cleaned out the sludge. That one lost a cam lobe. The other one lost a rod bearing. Coincidence? There exists pockets of sludge within an old non-detergent engine.  When it get washed away, where will it go? I'll not take that chance again. Staying with non detergent is easy enough. 

Yep, it IS a coincidence that you had some sort of failure shortly after using "detergent" oil.

 

BOTH of the "failures" you had just don't "happen", chances are in BOTH engines those parts were already SHOT, DONE and on their last breath of life.

 

You are blaming the wrong thing, there is no such thing as "non detergent" oils any more and hasn't been any for many, many yrs. Even straight weight oils contain "detergents" and most likely even well before the 1990's. If my memory serves me well, detergents started to be added into engine oils as far back as the 1930's/1940's.

 

Manufacturers use the exact same oil feed stock and exact same basic additive packages (which contain "detergents" at the SAME levels) for both straight weight oils and multi-vis oils. The only difference with multi-vis is they add in a extra viscosity modifier additive which is what makes multi-vis get thin when cold and thicker when hot.

 

Engine oils are designed to meet and exceed standards known as API.

 

See API information here..

 

https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/Motor Oil Guide 1020.pdf

 

To get any engine oil without detergents you would have to buy an oil that has a API service rating of SA ONLY which contains NO additives (IE no detergents). That oil is at the bottom of the API list and remarks state "not suitable for engines built after 1930".

 

API rating SB and higher ALL contain additives package and that package contains DETERGENTS.

 

Newer API service rated oils can be used to REPLACE older API rating requirements which is why you will see newer oils also list the old obsolete API ratings on the container. IE current oils are API rated SP, that succeeds ALL older ratings including SA.

 

Manufacturers save costs by not making a special non detergent batch, they do not make OBSOLETE API rated oils so you must have some sort of stock pile of old SA rated oil from the 1930's and before to be non detergent..

[Hemi Joel]

If it weren't for the possibility of saving someone's engine, I wouldn't even respond to that.  

 

"there is no such thing as "non detergent" oils any more and hasn't been any for many, many yrs" Well OK then. The stuff that I use must be in my imagination.   https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/farm-rated-non-detergent-conventional-motor-oil/0000000238372

 

The 2 engines of mine that were wrecked were not shot prior. They suffered oil starvation to isolated areas of the engine very shortly after. I have been a wrench for 50 years, I know when an engine is shot, and I know how to diagnose a failure.  I was there, you were not. You have no clue. You are making too many unfounded assumptions.  

 

Anyone is free to roll the dice and risk their engine for no good reason.  I won't.

 

 

[ted sweet]

doesnt carry any oil spec

Edited Friday at 12:07 AM by ted sweet (see edit history)

[TTR]

On 9/18/2024 at 4:07 PM, ken77 said:

What engine oil do you guys recommend for a 1929 chrysler 65?

Is this a trick question ?

 

In spite of so many obviously trying, for anyone to give even a somewhat reasonable/sensible answer, a lot more information would be needed, including but not limited to what is the current condition of the engine ?
When was it rebuilt*, if ever ?
If ever, what was done and/or replaced ?  
Do you have rebuild and service records ?

How many miles on it since ?

What type of oil is in it now ?
Etc, etc, etc …

 

* Yes, there are “rebuilds” and then there are “rebuilds”, but one may not have much, if anything, in common with the other.

Edited Friday at 12:56 AM by TTR (see edit history)

[ken77]

On 9/18/2024 at 10:13 PM, 29 Chandler said:

My personal experience with synthetic oil in our 1914 Chandler Six has not shown it to leak any more or less than conventional oil. I am using the same weight oil as before so I did not expect any difference. The only reason I chose to use synthetic was to get a better additive package since my engine does sit a lot.

 

For your Chrysler I would focus more on how clean your engine is now? Has the pan been cleaned out? How often were oil changes done in the past? When these cars were new they all used a non-detergent oil. Adding a modern detergent oil could break up a lot of sludge that might be sitting in the bottom of your oil sump. If your car does not have a good oil filter than all of these contaminates will be picked up and sent down the tiny oil galleys. 

 

Do some research as there is a lot of discussion on this topic in the past. Pretty much all oil you can buy today (at the correct weight) will be fine for your engine.

 

I did remove and clean the oil pan . The engine did run fine last year. We've done no other work to the engine just body and frame. We will be starting the engine soon . I did put vr1 20w50 in it. By the way  I don't have a oil filter I plan on changing the oil frequently.  Thanks for your advice 👍 

[ABear]

16 hours ago, Hemi Joel said:

"there is no such thing as "non detergent" oils any more and hasn't been any for many, many yrs" Well OK then. The stuff that I use must be in my imagination.   https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/farm-rated-non-detergent-conventional-motor-oil/0000000238372

Did you BOTHER to READ the label on that oil?

 

It is NOT FOR ENGINE USE, PERIOD.

 

Specifically states..

 

"For use in low-pressure hydraulic systems, hydraulic jacks & air compressors requiring use of non-detergent oil"

 

Would I run "hydraulic jack and compressor" oil through my engines?

 

He double toothpicks no.

 

You "value" your engines, yet you are running essentially crude oil through it.

 

Not very smart to do so.

 

That is just being cheap.

 

Get over it, use modern oils, not crude oil pumped directly out of the ground.

 

There is a lot of misconceptions on "detergents" in motor oils and your not helping that by spreading more misinformation.

 

Here is another read on history of engine oils..

 

I would suggest reading the entire article but I have posted a few highlights from it in italics..

 

https://www.cnlubricantadditive.com/info/detergent-additives-in-engine-oil-82322196.html

 

"What is Detergent for Internal Combustion Engine Oils?

 

Detergent (for Internal Combustion Engine Oils) is a chemical that can clean engine parts and keep engine parts clean, and help suspend undesirable solid particles in engine oil. Detergent has four functions: acid neutralization, detergence, dispersion, and solubilization.

In engine oil formulations, most detergents use alkaline metal soaps to neutralize organic or inorganic acids generated during oxidation or combustion.

Detergents are generally combined with dispersants and ZDDP and are mainly used in internal combustion engine oils.

 

    In 1943, the United States discovered that diesel engine oil added with organic carboxylic acid metal soaps， such as oil-soluble fatty acids or naphthenic acids could solve the problem of increased carbon deposits in piston ring grooves, people call it detergent because this type of oil-soluble metal soap has the cleaning ability similar as a water-soluble soap.

    The research on detergents started with metal soaps, and became popular with fatty acids and naphthenic acid soaps. Due to most of the fatty acid metal salts and naphthenic acid metal salts are also oxidation catalysts to lubricant oil, they were replaced by sulfonates, phenates, and phosphates with the development of the lubricant industry.

    In modern lubricant additives, the most popular detergents include Sulfonates, Sulfurized Alkylphenates, Phosphonotthiolate, Alkylsalicylates and Naphthenates. The five types of detergents are initially applied with neutral salts.

    In the late 1940s and early 1950s, with the increase of high-power supercharged diesel engines and the increase of sulfur-containing fuels, as well as more understanding of the neutralization of detergents, people began to develop base detergents and over-base detergents.

    In the late 1950s, detergent products with a base value of 250 mg KOH/g were developed.

    At present, the amount of high base number of products takes the majority of modern lubricant additives, and the base value can reach up to 400~500mgKOH/g. More than 75% of detergents are used in gasoline engine oil and diesel engine oil. The detergent dosage in automobile engine oil can reach 3%~15%, and the content in marine engine oil will be even higher. Marine cylinder oils (TBN 100) contain up to 30% additives, most of these additives are detergents.

As early as 1930, people used salicylate as a multi-effect additive and then developed salicylate-containing metal. The patent was published in the early 1940s, the industrial production and practical application began in the 1950s, and it began to be a normal salt and gradually developed in the direction of alkaline salt, and its base value also has a low base value, medium base value, and high base value products, the highest base value of calcium salt is 280mgKOH/g, and magnesium salt can reach 350mgKOH/g.

In short, the high base value alkyl salicylate has good detergency, strong acid neutralization ability, stability at high temperatures, and certain anti-oxidation and anti-corrosion performance, and it is suitable for various steam and diesel engine oils combined with other oil additives."