Buick Dealer Won't Work On My 1953!

[TomE_1953]

I just had new lever-action shocks installed on my 1953 Roadmaster. I had to have the front end aligned and called the Charlie Fisher Buick here in Kansas City. Told him what year I had and he replied, 'Sorry, we can't work on your car, our computers don't go back that far." I told him I had all the specs in my 1952/53 shop manual for his mechanic to use. Still the answer was, 'Sorry'.

After calling at least 25 places in town I found a shop that does Hot Rods and he told me about a guy who doesn't use computers so I gave him a call.

The shop is called "Marr's Bee-Line Service" and they do it with the old calibration tools (NO COMPUTERS) and then they balance the tires ON the vehicle (true balance in my book). Here is the phone number and address for people in the Greater Kansas City area 816-252-0404. Their address is 11620 E. Hwy. 24 in Independence (Yes, Pres. Truman's Home), MO. I offered the mechanic my manuals with the specs and he said, "Thanks but I've been doing these cars for 30 years and have them all memorized." And boy did he! She drives W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L and tight!

Just a dirty shame that Buick dealers can't help out a 'classic' owner with a front end alignment (who has all the specs. for them)! DAMN COMPUTERS!!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Skyking]

Tom, that's getting to be the normal way of life. If it's not in the computers, forget it. Ever go in a store to buy something and the power is out? They can't sell you anything because they don't know how to make change....It's really sad!

[Terry29-26]

Please don't "dam" the computers, how else would you have posted your complaint?

Find some young out of work mechanic and pay him to do the work for you. Let him learn on your car and benefit both you and the next generation. Only one restoration school that I know of still exists in the U.S.A. The youg people will never learn If us "old guys" don't give them a chance to learn. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to know that there are still a few old guys around that have the knowlage and ability to work on our old cars but us old timers have to get the youg people involved. I first started working on a 29 chev that I bought for $25. Sure that was a lot of money back in 1949 but just try and buy a 29 chev. today and see what it costs. Young people today are just like you and I were many years back, they will buy what they can aford and learn as they go just like you and I did. Are you willing to sell your car for the same price as a modern 20 year old car? Thats all the young people can aford. Thats what they will work on and learn from if we don't give them the chance to work on our old IRON.

Just my $0.o15 worth/

Terry2926

[Dales90]

A sign of the times, for sure.

A couple of years ago, here in the Des Moines, Iowa area, I took my wife's Regal, '88 4-seater, to the only Buick dealership in town. The service engine code was one which had 5 possible problems. The service manager told me none of his machanics had experience/knowledge on any cars older than TWO model years!!! He admitted they would be ojt-ing any diagnosis on her car.

They found the solution on the 5th possibility, changing out parts from least costly to most. The 4th and 5th parts were each $200+.

That's the nature of the current dealer capability, replace-the-part codes, or no knowledge at all.

Dale

[Guest]

actually,

the computer alignment is simpler then the old days.

the unit just hanges on the wheel and shoots a lazer at the screen to get the correct toe, and angle.

the new shop just don't want to hunt for the eccentric bolt which is adjusted by an alan wrench behind the cap on the upper arm.

the toe is simple.

these's guys don't like working on the old stuff because THEY DON'T HAVE A COMPUTERIZED RATE CHART!

these time cards cannot asign a task number, and the accounting get screwed up.

[NTX5467]

While those of us that have grown up with the various vintages of vehicles might be quick to bemoan the observed lack of knowledge of them in the repair industry, unless it's someone who's our age and used to work on them "when they were new", the reality of the issue is that most dealerships technicians' expertise is more toward the more current model vehicles. Nowadays, getting a vehicle in with a carburetor that needs work can be a major issue--because most of the younger technicians grew up with fuel injection and electronic ignitons, for example. Similar situations can also exist at the parts department with parts consultants that have never used a paper parts book.

In the early '80s, a customer brought a pretty nice early model Corvair in for something minor. A younger tech made a comment about how good they got that factory radio (with the Chevy bow tie on the dial) to fit in the instrument panel. The shop foreman replied that it came that way. The tech looked puzzled as he looked at the car. The shop foreman finally told him that Chevrolet actually made this car in the early to late '60s as the young tech thought it was something someone had "home built" or customized--he was born a few years after that particular car was produced and Nader had already done his deals before this young guy was in puberty.

Even if the dealerships had accepted your car for an alignment job, would they have known all of the dynamics of setting the alignment angles as most of them have no experience on anything except strut front ends or later model light truck alignments at best. We have an older front end tech that hates anything with eccentric washers/cam bolts and such as they can allegedly move after the final adjustment is made--he only feels safe using solid alignment shims as they won't change unless something bends in the frame or suspension. From his perspective, he want's what he did to stay as it was after he did it.

All of the fancy computerized alignment machines are just higher tech level meauring devices--period. They will dictate when for the technician to manually move the wheels from side to side and such as they make their computations. Probably more accurately than reading a bubble in a level, but the earlier vehicles probably don't need that higher degree of accuracy anyway. Still, valid alignment measurements can be made whether the vehicle's data is in the machine's database or not. I highly suspect that whatever specs there are for the earlier cars will be similar to the '70s full size cars. Won't matter if the machine says it's out of spec for the newer vehicle or not if the specs for the vehicle from the Buick shop manual are met. It's all in how you manipulate the machine and it's database after the alignment check and readjusting is done, no more no less.

On the other side of things, from a realistic perspective, if you put a little positive caster (probably about 1-1.5 degrees) and set the camber to basically 0 degrees (or with a slight bias from side to side in caster or camber to compensate for road crown in the area) and the toe-in to about 3/8-1/2 inch (for bias ply tires), that should put things pretty close, I suspect. Many of the older vehicles with manual steering used negative caster to lower the effort it took to steer the car while power steering cars used some positive caster as steering effort was not an issue. Positive caster helps with directional stability, somewhat, but also increase steering effort.

I have a friend that took over his dad's alignment shop when he eased out of things due to his advancing age. Randy grew up in the business and has a clip on bubble meter that he uses for caster and camber adjustments. Then there's an old drive-over toe-in checker at the entrance to the rack (been in use since the '40s I suspect!). Randy has seen most everything from exotic imports to mainstream domestic stuff and knows them all. As with other things, it's not the tools as such, but how the tools are used. If there are any computers in the place, they're probably in the newer cars in there--at least last time I was over there.

Many dealers really don't desire to work on older vehicles due the "ojt" deal mentioned. At least with the more recent '80s vehicles, there should be some service manuals there and the vehicle architecture is similar enough to current stuff (which the techs have been trained on) that they can figure it out. Unfortunately, there have been some repair jobs on older vehicles that have turned very sour for the customer and everyone else involved at dealerships over the years. From that perspective, better to send that job to someone better able to handle it and concentrate on the newer vehicles where factory tech assistance can be available.

Even though the computer's trouble codes might point to definite diagnostics, you still need to have an understanding of the dynamics involved to expedite the repair. Ojt might be good and interesting, but when it's sitting in a tech's stall, it's not making anyone any money until it is fixed, quality control checked, and is delivered to the customer (who pays the bill). Doesn't matter if it's a current year model or something more vintage.

So, don't feel abandonded with the older vehicles in getting them worked on. There's usually someone around that does some work on street rods and such and will work on other older vehicles too. Some of the retired mechanics still do some work too, on the side, or part time for private shops. There's even some private shops that they still own too! It's all out there somewhere, with good people still in them, but you just have to look a little harder or use some network contacts to find them. Unfortunately, there are still some shysters in the mix too so shop and research carefully. As always, the good guys will be worth what they charge.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Guest Dynaflo2]

Two quick stories to go along with yours. Just today I took my '51 Roadmaster to an NTB shop to switch out a bent wheel. They have to enter all the customer information on a computer and use the year / make / model designations already stored in the computer. The computer only went back as far as 1958. The first year they could punch in and have Buick come up as an option was 1962. And the closest they could come to a Roamaster was Electra. So as far as their computer is concerned, my '51 Roadmaster is a '62 Electra.

Second story: A couple years ago, I drove my '82 Riviera convertible to the Winston-Salem area. Getting some front-end work done there, I visited two garages. They were both surprised that Buick offered a convertible in '82. One of them was a BUICK DEALERSHIP!

[Guest imported_SKYSTHELIMIT]

I know exactly how you all feel. I've bought shop manuals for my older cars and just taught myself how to fix um myself. By now I consider myself a decent mechanic. Maybe I should open up my very own shop <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Philippe Racicot]

I also had strange experiences at some Buick dealerships! I recently went for an oil change with my 67 Riviera and the mechanic was not able to put the car in drive! Previously, another mechanic was not able to put the key in the ignition and told me I gave them the wrong key! They didn't stock the oil filter anymore but, by luck, I had an AC pf 24 filter from Wal-Mart in my car's trunk and when the technician went to tell me that they would drive me home because they had missing parts, I told him I had one in my car's trunk!

The man at the parts counter was completely mixed-up with the old catalogs and when I ordered a seal for my steering box, he asked me what cubic-inch displacement my car's engine had: 450, 460, 480 or 494! I told him these numbers didn't refer to displacement but to the car's series!

I also went with my newer 75 Electra to get my car's airbag system serviced because the "AIR CUSHION" light did come on occasionnaly and the next day, they called me to tell me that my car didn't have air bags and the light was probably referring to the auto-leveling suspension! I told the guy to investigate a bit further and to look at my car's owner manual! He went in the car and when he got back to the phone he told me that I was right and they would investigate further! 3 days later, they told me that this was a computorised system that their computers couldn't analyse!! I told them that the impact detector was rusted and was probably faulty but I had no idea how to replace it (or should I say find another one!) They still haven't found how to repair it and I decided to "seal" the box with silicone which seems to have worked well since the light never came on again while driving the car!!

Even with my "newer" 91 Ultra, they haven't been able to get the heated winshield working, they changed it because it had a small crack, checked the electrical system but haven't found why it wouldn't work. I think they had no idea of what they were to be doing.

What decided me to get my cars serviced at Buick dealerships were some TV ads that suggested to people with older cars to continue to get their cars serviced with GM parts at the place that knows GM cars best! Now I know they were probably speaking about 4 years old cars!

Honestly, I think I knew it before but to me a 4 years old car is almost brand new.

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">'Sorry, we can't work on your car, our computers don't go back that far." </div></div>

Can't hold back any longer. Anyone besides me think that the above is the wrong thing to say to a customer. At the least a reference to someone who may be able to help is in order. How hard can it be to keep in touch with a variety of shops around one's dealership?

Additional posts over the last few days have done nothing to make me think there are capable Buick mechanics working at any dealerships any more. (In fact perhaps not for a long time. In 1968 I treated my parents '66 LeSabre to a tune-up and it ran worse after the procedure than before. It went back two more times until I got a "what do you expect from a small block?" [it had the 340 w/4 barrel pulling 260 horses and was not a bad performer at all.] so I did what I should have done in the first place and timed it myself. They were only 8 degrees off - set it and it ran great! Sounds like things have not changed...)

Service should not start and end at the dealership door.

[Guest John Chapman]

I've had a completely different experience... granted, on my 1965 Skylark. I took it to Seaside Buick in San Diego on a recent Saturday morning for an oil change and lube. They had to scrounge a bit for the oil filter (not in the computer) but came up with the correct one. Oil change and lube went well. The old car created some interest in the service bay, but when all was said and done, the youngster that did the work took time to point out the small leaks in the oil pan gasket, the ST300 pan gasket and the 'weep' at the rear axle tube joints.

They then invited me to have a hamburger at the BBQ they had set up in the front. I'll go back!

Cheers,

JMC

[NTX5467]

Unfortunately, dealership experiences can have wide variations.

I don't know about the other GM Parts databases, but the Bell+Howell one we have has an AC-Delco "All Makes" catalog in it that covers AC-Delco parts back to the middle '60s or so in many cases. Many dealership parts people don't know it's in there or how to use it, preferring to say they can't find a particular oil filter or whatever that is in AC-Delco and that alternative catalog, for example. There are some ins and outs to use some of the listings, but it's all just pointing and clicking just like in the regular parts database listings.

Similarly, every paper catalog that GM used to print is now in the GM Parts database listings in the parts computers. Just have to look for them under "Alternative Catalogs".

Parts stores with computers are similarly no better. They have a list of things to ask about the vehicle just as the dealership people do in order to even get to the part number listings. On the late models, it expedites things when you have a VIN for the vehicle too. Even GM's orientation is that a parts person request a VIN before they begin to look up a part for a late model vehicle. It seems that product knowledge of what goes where or what models are what is not important any more OR that parts people have any real mechanical knowledge as that used to come in extremely handy in the earlier decades. Oh well . . .

It's always been a problem when the parts people are younger than your car is. One time I went in search of a "timing tape" so I could check total ignition timing above idle. The guy brought out a timing chain. Another time about 20 years later, I went in search of ignition point grease and was presented dielectric silicone. Lots of stories about those things out there, I suspect.

In more modern times, service writers/consultants might not be from "around here" with respect to the dealership or have not been in the area long enough to have any real knowledge of what other shops in the area might be good shops.

Unfortunately, many dealership people are not the true experts on particular vehicles just because they work at a dealeship that many custoemrs perceive or expect them to be. It's always been that way to varying degrees probably since the early days of automobiles.

Sometimes, those of us with older vehicles tend to forget how "old" our vehicle is in relation to the current models or how much the automotive landscape has changed since that earlier vehicle was built/designed. The newest vehicle I have is a 1980 Chrysler Newport V-8. If I took that into a Chrysler store needing the Electronic Engine Computer diagnosed, they'd look puzzled seeing that lean burn computer hung on the side of the air cleaner. Much less know what the special computer tester that diagnosed it was! They'd probably want to know how the 360 V-8 was not a Magnum too. Getting the correct service manuals and learning some basic repair procedures does have its merits.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Ron Green]

As each year passes so does more and more true mechanics and good shops. The days of having a mechanic jump in your car, run it around the block and have a good feeling what is wrong or what that noise is are all but over. That goes for a dealership or a good local garage.

Now pull up, download the vehicles computer, read the codes and have a replacement parts technician screw that new sensor in. After he reads the book to find out where it is. Remember many of these guys were born in the early 80's, late 70's.

Better get used to working on your old iron or take some lessons from the few remaing older mechanics that still have alot of knowledge left as 99% of your shops won't be touching your car in the next 4 to 7 years. My .02 cents

[Matt Harwood]

You should have seen the guys at the dealership parts department when I would go in to get parts for FrankenRanger. I knew what I wanted, but they'd always ask the year/model/engine questions anyway.

Me: "I need an A/C pressure switch for a '97 Ranger."

Them: "What engine?"

Me: "Well, it's kind of a hybrid. It's got a 5.0L V8."

Them: Starts looking through computer. "Sorry, no V8 Rangers made in '97." Duh. No V8 Rangers ever made by the factory...

Me: "I know. I put it in there. Can I just have the part?"

Them: "Do you have a VIN? I need to put something in the computer."

Me: "Can I just have the part?"

Them: "Gotta have some sort of VIN or something to look it up."

Me: "Can't you just look up a '97 Ranger?"

Them: "Nope. Gotta know what kind of engine it has."

And so on and so forth. Arrgh. I started ordering parts by mail instead.

Still, you should have seen it when I drove the truck up to that same dealership. I cleared out the entire service department by popping the hood. They were five deep trying to get a look. They couldn't believe that I kept the stock A/C, ABS brakes, power steering, etc. in addition to the V8 and a supercharger. One guy even said, "I didn't know they were putting V8s in these now!"

I have no faith in dealers. You should be happy they turned you away--imagine the damage they could have done driving your car on bias-ply tires and ancient drum brakes and expecting it to handle like a modern car! They're butchers because they get paid by the job. Get it in, get it out, don't worry about damage because the warranty will take care of it.

Learn to do your own alignments--in racing, we used to just run two equal-length bars sitting on jack stands across the front and back of the car, and run string between them, front to back. Measure to make sure both strings are parallel to each other and equidistant from the car. Then measure the distance between the front edge of the wheel to the string and the back edge of the wheel to the string: that gives you your toe setting. Get a camber gauge for your camber setting (is it even adjustable on these cars?). Caster isn't adjustable, so don't worry about that. It's really, really easy, trust me. We won a lot of races and sold a lot of hot Corvettes to guys using this alignment technique without a problem. I'd argue that it's even more accurate than a computer, and doesn't take as long to set up.

Hope this helps. Sorry to go on so long.

[Ron Green]

Matt, I have the same problem with my 97 Chevy Centurion 4 door pick up. Gm did not build a 4 door unless it was the 3500 1 ton series until 1998. They sent them down the road to Centurion where they would weld a Fleetside front frame to a Silverado rear frame, welded together under the rear doors. The truck was all but hand build.

Now when I go to the dealers for parts, even the one I bought it from they insist the truck does not exist! Will not come up on the computer. Thank god I was finally able to get a build sheet from Centurion so I can order my own parts.

[NTX5467]

Matt, Ford did build some V-8 Rangers in the '90s, but not for public consumption. A friend was in the parts department of a large Ford dealer in Dallas at that time. Ford had them shipped down and they were delivered to a local courier service for evaluation, complete with data recorders under the front seat. You can imagine the fun those guys had! After the 90 days or so, they went back to Ford.

As for "conversion vehicles", many parts people are not aware they even exist, except for the more common van-type vehicles. Unfortunately, the mentality that "if it's not in the computer, it doesn't exist or was built by ______" exists. In such cases, all the customer has to say is "it's a conversion from a _______" and that should give them enough information to deal with--whether it's at the dealership level or the auto supply level.

Same thing exists with the GM motorhome chassis vehicles. The owners call up and expect the dealership to have all of the parts for them, yet all GM supplies is a rolling chassis. Everything else is done by the motorhome manufacturer. Even if it's a GM chassis doesn't mean all of the components on them are GM. For many years, they used a particular a/c control from Chrysler vehicles of the middle '70s. To get a new one required a trip to a Chrysler dealer or a motorhome service facility even though it was a GM chassis vehicle.

Before the extended cab GM trucks came out on the '88 C/K series (not to be confused with the more recent 3-door versions), there were some conversion companies that built some extended cab trucks on the '87 C/K body. If you looked closely, you could see where they did their paint work in acrylic lacquer instead of the factory acrylic enamel. They ordered in a long bed truck and then put a short bed on it and added the rear body cap and such.

On the Dodge side of things, they stopped building crew cab trucks not long after they stopped having big block V-8s in them. There is/was a place in Cleburne, TX that did crew cab conversions on the newer Rams--with Chrysler's blessings and full warranty. There was also a place in CA that did Ram "Suburbans" several years ago too (using many GM body panels and such), not to mention the Mexico market's Ramcharger on the Ram chassis.

So, unfortunately, those of us on the other side of the parts counter can only find the desired items if WE know what kind of vehicle we are dealing with, just like it's always been. We, unfortunately, can't read minds either, but we CAN ask questions about the vehicle in order to gain the information we feel we need to have to get to where we need to be in the part search. People call up all the time and say (for examaple) "I need a door handle for my Chevy truck, you have one?" "Yes, we probably do. What year of vehicle to you have?" and then it progresses from there until we have enough information to make a valid parts search--in the computer or in the earlier times of paper parts books either way.

At one time several years ago, we devised questions about the trucks that the customers could answer as we had three different versions of full size trucks to deal with. Asking "new body style" or "old body style" didn't work anymore so I devised questions like "When you open the door, do you push a button and pull, pull upward on the handle, or grab the handle and just pull it toward you?" Luckily each one of the trucks had different style outside door handles and a/c controls!

So, if you go into a dealership or parts store and they start asking a lot of questions, even if they seem irrelevant, please answer them as best you can and, at the dealership, having an insurance card with an accurate VIN can help expedite things for later model vehicles. It's one of those deals where you can't progress to the next step if the previous step's answer is not filled in. Even with the older paper books, we would have to ask the same questions anyway, just that they weren't scripted by a computer database's requirements. Having the VIN allows us to determine what options and other equipment your vehicle was produced with so having that can help eliminate some of the questions. If the vehicle's been converted from it's original form by an outside conversion vendor, that information can be helpful too.

And then there were the deals with the beloved Buick Skylark changing body series from the Chevy Nova platform to front wheel drive. Looking at the build date or inspection sticker didn't work then--way back in the late '70s--so having a VIN was critical on that deal too. A sharp parts person (at the dealership or parts store) who'd been bit by that deal would know to ask for a valid year model (or if it was front wheel drive/sideways engine or rear wheel drive) for the car under repair lest they have an irate customer who ordered the wrong year model of part.

The automotive business is constantly evolving. The vehicles have changed as much in the last 30 years as they did in the 30 years before that and the 30 years before that. It's not going to change either! Those of us in the dealership side of things have to stay up with it regardless of where our "sweet spot years or vehicles" are. Saying "I don't like those new cars so I'm only going to deal with the older ones I like" is NOT an option for us. Parts lookups have changed too and we have to adapt to those things too.

There are times I enjoy getting back into the older paper parts books, but even then you sometimes had to read between the lines to determine what part goes to what application or how to decode the nomenclature for engines, options, and such. For example, back then Chevy's factory air was listed as "CAC" (car air conditioning) and the hang down a/c was "Cool Pak". "TurboFire" = small block V-8 and "TurboJet" = big block V-8. TurboFire 400 was a small block 2bbl yet TurboJet 400 was the 402 big block 4bbl. Then there was "HPE" (High Performance Engine, 350hp small block V-8), "SHPE" (Special High Performance Engine, 370 hp small block V-8 aka LT-1), "HD" (Heavy Duty 427 = L88), and "FI" (Fuel Injection 375 hp 327). "Chevy" meant "Chevy II", "Pass Car" meant BelAirs and Impalas and such. Compared to all of the Chevy build variations, dealing with the Buick "series" numbers can be much easier once you understand that deal too.

As much as the parts database computers might be disliked, they are here to stay and are much easier to deal with on all sides with just a little adaptation or shifting gears. Nothing's really changed, just how it's done. Having accurate and correct vehicle information to give to the parts person is just as important as it ever was. Hopefully, my parts person associates will have questions about the vehicles that the customer can answer instead of asking questions they can't answer (as in the door handle example I mentioned).

Sorry for the length, but there are some realities on the "other side" of the parts counter too. Cooperative customers are always appreciated.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Ron Green]

NTX, Good explanation. But when I buy a truck for almost 40K from the largest dealer in the capitol of Pennsylvania and which carries a full GM warranty and drive the truck to the dealership along with both window stickers, one from GM and one from Centruion and they say it does not exist it really #isses you off. GM and Ford sold thousands of these factory authorized conversions. When they type the vin # in the computer it comes back in red and states number no good.

How come a NAPA store 50 miles away can help me find certain parts that will work for my Amphicar like gaskets, belts, universals, etc and the one 3 blocks from my house say they are not available or do not exist.

Some parts guys do go out of their way to help but more and more they seem to care less, in my opinion.

[NTX5467]

I can understand your frustration at having an "invisible" vehicle. As for the VIN, there is a new tool we have at GMDealerworld called "GMVIS" which will pull up some VINs that might not be in the latest updates in the GM Parts database (but not prior to the earlier production cut-off production year). Of late, we've had several "just off the transport" pickups that needed something and the VINs were too new, but it seems that as soon as GM produces a vehicle, that vehicle's data is in GMVIS. Next time you're near the dealership, go over to one of the service writers and get them to run GMVIS on your conversion vehicle's VIN. On the front page, it'll pull up the basic warranties and coverages and such. If you click on "Vehicle Build" (on the upper horizontal menu), it'll bring up a page with all of the option codes and such for the vehicle too. Get them to print you that page (they might want to see some picture ID and other ownership documentation) and maybe it'll help you with your dealership parts situations. It might help if you also explain why this information can be helpful to you.

For a conversion vehicle, it might be helpful as there might not be a Service Parts ID Label like there is on non-conversion vehicles. Whatever numbers or ID that Centurion put on the vehicle would pertain to situations where you might need to replace some part that Centurion installed as part of the conversion and would typically have no significance with respect to the GM dealership situation. This Centurion number could be very significant to Centurion, though, in a parts/equipment replacement situation.

In the auto supply business, even some of the chains like NAPA but moreso with the independents, there are several different supply chains they might pull from--but the number of chains or jobbers they can get into seems to be dwindling. For example, I recently saw a NAPA dealer from east TX. He related how they'd cut up his supply network so that he couldn't buy from AC-Delco jobbers in Dallas any more, but had to buy from a much smaller and less inventoried jobber in western Louisiana. He wasn't happy as it negatively affected how he did business and took care of his customers' needs. Our local NAPA store uses the NAPA regional warehouse in OKC and usually has overnight service for it (FYI, NAPA Exhaust parts appear to be retagged Walker Exhaust parts). The regional O'Reilly's warehouse in Duncanville, TX has become somewhat legendary for what they have down there (I recently ordered reman brake calipers, new brake lines and such for a '73 Mercedes 450SEL and they were in stock and we had them the next day), but the quality of the local "help" can be variable.

Sometimes it takes a little time to find the best local/regional source for what it is you're looking for in carparts regardless of what kind of vehicle it is. Before I went to work at the dealership, I already had shopped for parts enough to know what to get from the dealer, what aftermarket brands were better than factory, where the most helpful parts people were, and where the best prices were. Once I found out about those things, it was much less stressful.

Having been on the customer side of the counter and having had the door slammed in my face for "we can't get that" when I'd already done enough research to know that it was available from the vehicle manufacturer raised my sensitivity on those issues. For example, I have a '70 Dodge Monaco Brougham 4-dr hardtop. It came with an AM radio and rear speaker. I went to the local Chrysler store (in '77) and looked up all of the part numbers and then traced them for number changes and then for pricing. Everything except the front to rear harness for the speakers was still available. I went to a larger metro Dodge store where we were getting our Chrysler parts for our GM dealership. The old line parts guy didn't even look up or break pace from doing something to tell me that all of that stuff was not available anymore. I didn't challenge him, I just went back to the local Chrysler store and placed the order and let the parts guy determine how cheaply he could sell it to me (our family had done business there for many years and it was a smaller dealership). Inside of about a week, everything had filtered in from Detroit and other warehouses. He sold it all to me at less than retail, I paid out, and everyone was happy. Now, unless I know for sure, from experience, that something is discontinued from GM, I will look it up and verify it before telling the customer that is was discontinued on such and such date. If it's something that might be in restoration parts, I always like to be able to refer the customer to a restoration vendor(s) or website(s) as a possible source for what they need too. As is typical, when one door (from the OEM manufacturer) closes, others (for alternative sources) open and then their search has some direction and continued purpose.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Ron Green]

NTX, Great explanation as usual. I would like to have someone like you at the dealership. But as you stated above some parts guys just say not available anymore without even looking. I thought by bringing in the truck along with the GM window sticker to the same dealer it was bought from would be good enough. Next time I will do as you say with the numbers and codes and hopefully with a understanding parts guy.

This all started over a cracked passanger side exterior mirror, which took two different trys to get the right one. Of course you could not just buy the mirror, you needed the whole assembly. But thats another story for another thread.

My local NAPA store pulls from the main warehouse as the NAPA store many miles away, sometimes they will give me the part numbers so the local NAPA will order my parts. The reason I somtimes do this is out of four employees at the local store only one will spend any time looking up old parts in the books under the counter. Rather then take a chance that he is in or not busy I am finding it easier to give the lackies the part numbers for order. The one lackie never even heard of 5/8" heater hose, again another story for another thread.

Thanks for your imput!

[NTX5467]

Thanks!

NTX5467

[GMPARTSMAN]

Also from the other side of the parts counter.......

General Motors and Harley Davidson parts departments are all that I can speak of with any knowledge as I am working in both now, 33 years in GM, 3 1/2 in Harley.

When I started in GM parts departments, we usually had on hand a lot of OLD parts. In 1970 for instance, the Chevrolet store I was at had a lot of mechanical parts on hand for my '54 Bel Air. The next year I went to a large Pontiac dealer, one of the largest in Metro Detroit, and we carried inventory back at least ten model years and actually sold and reordered these items.

Today, if the older parts are even available from GM, it is very unlikely that your neighborhood dealership will carry them on hand as inventory has to be turned X amount of times per year to keep your averages up and maximum profit generated. When you are in parts management, you are responsible to the dealer principal for the profitability of your department, as you have to maximize profit and minimize expenses any way you can.

Counterpersons are under pressure too, we have to justify our pay plans by maximizing our sales which are tracked by computer, broken down by daily, monthly, and yearly sales to date. The faster we can finish one job and go to the next, the larger gross and net sales, the better we look to management.

Also, GM has been dropping past model parts from the system quite rapidly, sometimes selling them to Vintage Parts Inc., which I have used with excellent results, or licensing them to GM approved sources for manufacturing through the restoration catalog. In defense of the corporation, how can you justify carrying a part in some cases for a 25 year old car that maybe sells 10 of that item per year. They too have to maximize profit and cut expenses as each time a service part goes through the warehouse system the costs go up. A quick and dirty example is why when a option on your new car costs XX, when you go to add it on later it costs XXX. There are other factors too, but all these factors add up.

Now we also come to the last but not least factor, the person behind the counter. Career parts persons are getting hard to find. They will bounce from auto parts store to car dealership, try another line of work, then go back to the dealerships,auto parts store, etc. The parts person that stays with one manufacturer's products such as Ford, Chrysler, GM, we are getting harder to find and older too. When I started, the old guys in this business were in their 30's. I'm past that figure as well as all the people I work with, the youngest being in his thirties, the oldest in their 60's. Experience is great, but what happens when we retire, who is going to take over then? You don't see a lot of twenty year olds starting in this business for many reasons, and when they do they usually don't stay around long. The longer you are in the business, the better you get(USUALLY, there are always exceptions!) at it. We used to day that in a fast-paced dealership it took two years to make a good counterman from a trainee. Now if the young guy stays six months, it's a miracle!

Anyway, just a few things to add to the mix.

[NTX5467]

For sure, the "money" side of things has intensified over the past ten years or so. Now, a manager is not necessarily the most knowledgeable person in the department, but one that has basic knowledge and is always looking for ways to maximize profite without decreasing the level of service to the dealership's customers or hurting the interrelationship to the dealership's Customer Satisfaction Index for Service and New Vehicle Sales. Then there's the mix of buying certain parts from GM per se or via an AC-Delco jobber. Things are definitely a juggling act for sure!

As for personnel, the main profit generation in the parts department comes from the shop, internal, and wholesale businesses. In most stores, retail is a very small profit generator (although retail has the highest profit margin built-in as the parts typically aren't discounted to over-the-counter retail sales. That's why the retail side of things sometimes gets short-changed compared to the department's other areas. Many times, the retail counter people will also handle wholesale business too. Planning personnel is a big juggling act too, sometimes.

About 10 years or so, GM had a big reorganization situation where any dealership could make a "one time" return of anything with a current GM part number on it, regardless of how long they'd had it. In that big purging, the bulk of the old inventory that was returnable went back into the GM warehouse operation for whatever else to happen to it. This way, the dealers could restock (hopefully) with parts that they could sell. So, don't expect many dealers to have any "vintage" parts around any more.

The places to look would be the larger parts vendors that used to go around buying up dealers' obsolete parts for basically token lot prices. In the cases, as mentioned, where GM sold the older parts to Vintage Part International, there will be a listing by the part description in the GM Parts database to contact that company for that part. The few times I've needed to do one of those deals, it worked out well and our cost (including shipping) was comparable to the GM dealer cost. There are a few parts locator websites too (i.e., www.partsvoice.com) that can do dealership parts searches of discontinued stock.

And then there is the GM Restoration Parts and Liscensing programs. This Paper Catalog will list GM part numbers by car line and where to get them. It's not nearly as inclusive as some might desire and doesn't have nearly as much coverage as some might like either as it's the private company that foots the bill for the molds and production of the part instead of GM. Therefore, they will be selective of what they produce.

For example, there was a discussion of reproducing Skylark GS grilles for the '70-'72 cars in another Buick website. Basically, to do factory correct reproductions would require building something like 1000 grilles that would cost about $500.00 each to produce and cover expenses. Then you add a reasonable profit to cover merchandising the product and things would get to be closer to an $800-900.00 selling price that would be spread over probably 10+ years.

From what I've seen, GM will produce a part of any year as long as it sells. Prior to the licensing/reproduction parts, this was the case but as time has progressed, they can let someone else handle those parts and put their money into more recent parts. Hence, the VPI connection.

Every dealer principle/general manager has their own orientations of how to do things and where they want the emphasis to be. In some smaller stores, the parts counter guys will be paid hourly so there's no real incentive to process lots of sales so they don't mind spending lots of time with customers that will not generate much profit for the store--other than good will.

The alternative is to pay the counter people a percentage of gross profits of the department. Guess where the emphasis gets to be then, with the people that spend money and lots of it. At the extreme, it can result in counter people brushing off smaller customers and tripping over each other to wait on the more fickle "big customer". Not to mention not wanting to answer tech questions or other inquiries unless you're a regular spending customer or a friend.

Hopefully, somewhere in the middle of those two extremes is where the bulk of counter people are. Employees that understand that how they handle the processing of the customer's concerns ties in with the total dealership orientation of taking care of the customer and generating business for the store. Much of the things the front counter people see can be classed as "customer relations" for EXISTING and FUTURE customers. Unfotunately, when parts department's daily sales and profits are tracked, those intangibles don't show up. If that happy customer goes in and sees a sales consultant and pays money for a vehicle because of his good experiences with the parts department, that doesn't show up in the parts department's profits either, but it all ties together as that vehicle will be in later for service work (oil changes, etc.) and possibly (a decreasing number of) warranty concerns or even body shop work. In a dealership as the one I've been at since 09-76 (continually), we have a very high customer retention rate so we don't know if that "stranger" that walks up to the counter or calls on the phone has never bought a vehicle from us or has bought 50+ (for example). In that context, we try to treat each one as a potential customer and conduct what we do to gain their business as a new customer. Plus you never know if that potential customer is one of the dealer's friends or bussiness associates either! End result, everyone that walks out needs to leave with a smile on their face--period.

Over the years, you learn what the dealer principle wants and then head in that direction. You also see what he directs to be done in customer satisfaction issues so, with that knowlegde, you can do it up front without having to get him involved. In a dealership where many of the management and employees have such high longevity and have worked together for many years, there can be a basic trust in the other employees to do the right thing and take care of the customer--even if it means a little less profit on the deal.

Over the past decade of so, there have been many customer service seminars and such for dealership people, including the current GMCommonTraining courses. The most wide-spread one was what Buick did in the early '90s with their "Living The Vision" seminars for everyone from the highest corporate manager down to the dealerhip wash rack people. This was during GM's early CSI boosting initiatives back then. Unfortunately, since that time there have been lots of new employees come online that have not been involved in those classes/seminars and few such wide-range/all inclusive required seminars have been done which go into the same level of depth those earlier ones did. The new online substitute seems to be the GM Retail Operating System (ROS) that dealership people can access to read through and see how what they do compares to the "best practices" as determined by GM operatives. Kind of a self-help/improvement situation.

So, each dealership experience can vary not only in what parts they keep, how they sell them, pay plans for the parts people, and just what kinds of profits they expect. Some larger stores that tend to have low dealership overhead (as the basic store's been paid for for a looong time) might look at what's being sold rather than total gross profits--especially if they get bragging rights from the performance of their parts department or can win other trips/recognition as a result. Of course, their basic profit targets need to be met too, but as they're only having to fund a nice existing store instead of a new dealership sitting on some expensive (to buy) real estate, they've got some room to play. Like I mentioned earlier, it's a highly variable situation that depends on everyone doing the best job they can to take care of the customer to give them a reason to continue being an active customer of the dealership in ALL of its various departments. The really neat thing is to see an allegedly dissatisfied customer leave, see them in another dealer's vehicle, and then see them back at your place for their next trade cycle when they found out that what they thought was dissatisfactory to them (at the time) was really better than what the other dealer did for them, so they come back as a more appreciative customer and, of course, it makes you do what you can to keep that earned trust, respect, and business.

As for stocked parts, as there will be many common parts stocked by various area dealers, each dealership can have a different vehicle mix than another so one might lean more toward light truck items rather than car parts, for example. It all depends on what's selling over the parts counter at each store. Just like at the manufacturer's level, if it moves and makes profits, then you keep it. Otherwise, you let the warehouse keep it until you need it. With the greater level of service from GM warehousing (typically), things can happen quicker than they used to AND we can actively track those orders from the time they are input into the GM computers until they reach our loading docks. Over the past 15 years, GM has quietly upgraded their computer operations and also expanded the amount of information that we can get out of them too. In some cases, we still need to talk to a real person in one of the call centers, but it's not like we used to have to do.

This whole deal might have generated more information than you'd ever perceived, but it also can give y'all an insight into how things operate on the dealership end of things. It's still the same business as it was 50 years ago, but with some differently evolving orientations that still mean that we take as good care of the customer as we can with the end desire that our parts customers are also dealership customers and that our wholesale customers recommend us to their cusomters because of the good job we've done for them. Some of the larger metro dealerships live and die by their daily operations "doc sheet", but that's not the ONLY story of how well all of the dealership's profit centers work together to make the whole thing rock and roll as good as it can in a mutually beneficial manner for all involved.

It's also very neat for a car person to be a part of a growing and vibrant car business! To work at the "only game in town" and it also be the "best game in town" too--for all of those years. Yep, I'm a "lifer" and proud of it!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Mrbuick714]

How did you EVER find shock-absorbers for a 53 Buick ?

[TomE_1953]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did you EVER find shock-absorbers for a 53 Buick ? </div></div>

Why from YOU MrBuick714 (Ralph Crisp).

His rebuilt shocks that he sold me were like NOS...MINT and work like a charm!

I said one on Sunday for you Mr. Crisp! God bless you!!! It's because of your shocks that I will have peace-of-mind all the way up and back from Flint!

For those of you looking for quality Buick parts, Ralph will be sharing a booth with Bob Stemm at Flint. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />