Electra63 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Hello folks I have been living with what I believe to be a lifter tick since I purchased my 63 Electra from the previous owner in 2022. It seems to come from the back of the engine on the driver's side. I've done some basic stuff from the factory manual like run the engine with the valve cover off, rap the rocker arms etc. No change. I initially tried a quart of Rislone in the oil but no improvement either. I'm worried about long term damage if it continues...should I be? ....or can I just ignore it? my general engineering experience tells me that nothing gets better (and probably gets worse) over the long term with no attention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 ....so I'm wondering if I can find out for sure whats going on by removing the air cleaner and intake manifold. Could I then see down to the end of the lifter rod and maybe see where the bad one is? ....or is that futile? I guess I'm asking whats the best way to check it out in more depth without disassembling the rocker arm or tearing down the engine. .! thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Did you try putting pressure on the heel of the rocker arms while it's running? My Riviera has a light click, and I isolated it to one lifter by doing that. I just used the handle of a hammer to press down gently on the rocker while it was running. I have thicker replacement head gaskets on mine, so the lifters are probably not preloaded as far as they were for 60 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Aaron65 said: Did you try putting pressure on the heel of the rocker arms while it's running? My Riviera has a light click, and I isolated it to one lifter by doing that. I just used the handle of a hammer to press down gently on the rocker while it was running. I have thicker replacement head gaskets on mine, so the lifters are probably not preloaded as far as they were for 60 years. Thanks Aaron - I'll give this a try Edited July 20 by Electra63 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Possibly a worn rocker arm tip? If you remove the valve cover you can first verify the pushrod moves the same distance as the others (i.e., not a bad cam lobe). Use a feeler gauge to measure lash on the noisy one. Compare with a quiet one... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 1 hour ago, EmTee said: Possibly a worn rocker arm tip? If you remove the valve cover you can first verify the pushrod moves the same distance as the others (i.e., not a bad cam lobe). Use a feeler gauge to measure lash on the noisy one. Compare with a quiet one... Thanks. I did see another thread on this forum about worn rocker arm tips. I'll check this too. I assume I have to rotate the engine as I work my way along the rocker arms? i.e. I assume the arms have to be all the way up (valve fully closed ) before I measure each gap with the feeler gauge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 10 hours ago, Electra63 said: I assume I have to rotate the engine as I work my way along the rocker arms? i.e. I assume the arms have to be all the way up (valve fully closed ) before I measure each gap with the feeler gauge? Yes, start with #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke. The distributor rotor pointing to the #1 spark plug tower on the cap. Both valves should be closed. Check lash, then rotate the crankshaft to the next cylinder in the firing order and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Also remember that the Nailhead has press-in valve tips. Make sure none of them have "escaped." 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 "Lifter ticks" have been around for years. Usually infesting Chevrolet small blocks which have had "flaky" oil change intervals with the oils we had in the 1960s-1970s. Never fatal, just an annoyance for those who like "quiet" motors. Of course, the Chevy issue might be remedied by adjusting the rocker arm nuts, but Buicks don't have that "luxury" of adjusting the lifter pre-load like that. A thicker head gasket should NOT cause this either, as the factory pre-loads usually center the lifter's internal plunger in its travel. An extra .030" thickness is not significant in that respect. An old MOTOR Manual noted that such sounds might also be made by valve guides with too much valve stem clearance. Visually inspecting for "bad lifters" is not possible as any "defects or wear" are completely internal to the individual lifter. Best cleaning action will come from a motor oil with a good bit of "ester" chemistry in it. Which usually means Mobil 1 motor oil. Nothing happens overnight. A more recent alternative is the new Valvoline "Protect and Restore" line of syn motor oils. Designed to clean up the engine internals with consistent use for about 12K miles (which should mean about 4 oil changes, as I understand it). In our vintage car world, that might mean years of driving to get to that mileage level. What viscosity oils are you now using? Just curious. Enjoy! NTX5467 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 1 hour ago, NTX5467 said: What viscosity oils are you now using? Just curious. Enjoy! NTX5467 Thanks NTX. The tick was there when I bought the car in June 2022. No idea what oil was in it when purchased. I added a quart of Rislone to that oil and after driving a few hundred miles there was no change to the tick and I decided it was time for an oil change. So I did an oil and filter change and since last summer (another few hundred miles ) it has been running on this 10W30 (see pic). After some research I decided on the VR1 as it was recommended on the Centerville shop web site blog (nailheadbuick.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Thanks for the reply and additional information. Valvoline VR-1 is one of the normal-brand, with good availability, motor oils with higher zddp content of the zccp type which works for gasoline engines. Higher zddp can also reduce bearing wear as well as cam lobe wear prevention. In the 1970s and 1980s, when I'd buy a used car for daily use, I'd just drive it and watch the oil consumption to see what it might be. On the first oil change, I'd add a pint of the old Stewart-Warner Alemite brand CD-2 oil detergent to the oil. Then, several thousand miles later, when it got to 1/2 quart down, I'd add a second dose. Then, when it got 1qt down, I'd change the oil, which was usually about 4-5K miles total. I'd notice that the valve rocker arm shafts were very clean and stayed that way, afterward. Then normal oil change intervals (usually about 4K miles, from then on. I'm not sure that additive is still around, but it seemed to work well. Never did have any ticking lifters, before or after, though. Not sure of any modern additives which might be good detergents as the additive packages of modern oils are much better, anyway. Enjoy! NTX5467 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Don't overlook the possibility of rocker arm shaft shaft wear. It occurs on the bottom of the shaft where the pressure of the valve springs is high. To check you need to remove the valve covers and then the rocker arm shaft assembly. It is not a bad job. You can slide each rocker arm against the spring around the shaft to inspect it. While the rocker arms are off you can put your finger on the tip of each valve stem and see how much wiggle they have. It is an indicator of wear in the stem bore. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 Ah ok. Noted, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (Calibrated finger tips to measure "the wiggle"?) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 of course.... I'll double check my finger calibration before starting the job 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 I will review the shop manual obviously, but are there any precautions/double-checks I should be aware of when refitting the rocker arm shaft assembly, if I decide to remove it? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 17 hours ago, NTX5467 said: (Calibrated finger tips to measure "the wiggle"?) Like the calibrated palm to weigh a Q-jet float. This is a metric but not to be confused with metrology. I have a real good story about how I once got a very high level security clearance on an assumption about that. The rocker arm assemble R&R is pretty straight forward. In the manual there is a note about the notch at the end of the shaft on the bottom. But you shouldn't have to take the assembly apart just checking it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 You've got to have a very fine hearing sensitivity to hear fuel sloshing in a phenolic float. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 A mechanics stethoscope would help isolate the noise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Nothing to worry about with the rocker shafts, just make sure the pushrods all stay engaged with the rocker arms as you tighten everything down. I torque each of the four bolts a little at a time to draw everything down evenly, and the final torque is 30-35 ft./lbs. You might also want to check your bolts to make sure they're all the same (they should be). They need to have a thinned-down shank to allow oil to pass from the cylinder head to the rocker shaft. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasander Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Small exhaust leak at manifold could sound like a tick tick 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 23 Author Share Posted July 23 4 hours ago, Chasander said: Small exhaust leak at manifold could sound like a tick tick Yes thanks. I've checked that as far as I can and I do believe it's mechanical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 The heat tube for the automatic choke passes through the exhaust manifold and I have seen them leak. It is a tricky one to find. Just follow the choke tube down. Such a leak can also show up as carbon around the bimetallic element in the choke housing. Another point on exhaust leaks. I do not use gaskets on the exhaust manifolds on my '64 Riviera or the '60 Electra. They tend to leak. Over 30 years, no gaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said: The heat tube for the automatic choke passes through the exhaust manifold and I have seen them leak. It is a tricky one to find. Just follow the choke tube down. Such a leak can also show up as carbon around the bimetallic element in the choke housing. Another point on exhaust leaks. I do not use gaskets on the exhaust manifolds on my '64 Riviera or the '60 Electra. They tend to leak. Over 30 years, no gaskets. Thanks. Yes I have also investigated that one after reading previous threads on the subject. It seems that a previous owner removed the heat riser flap (or secured it in position) and plugged the hole. It all looks leak tight around the area where the heat tube enters and exits the manifold and no deposits around there. By the way, the noise I'm hearing is concentrated more on the rear of the engine on the driver's side. If I crouch or lay down on the ground just under the driver's door, behind the front wheel that is where the sound is most noticeable. i.e. around cylinders # 6 or 8. The sound is a little lower in pitch when I first start the engine but after 2 or 3 seconds it quietens down a bit and becomes more of a 'pink pink' type noise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Just came in for lunch. Didn't want to spend all day trimming those 65 year old Blue Spruce anyway. Three sort of easy checks at this point. Get a piece of hose like 3/8 fuel hose and use it for a stethoscope. When the car is cold set the front wheel up on an old rim to raise the car. Use the hose to probe for sound on the bottom side of the exhaust manifold. Check the exhaust manifold bolts to be sure they are tight. Check the exhaust flange studs to be sure they tighten fully and are not stripped. Next go up top and slide the hose under the intake manifold and listen. There is a large Welch plug in the center of the manifold exhaust crossover that can rust through starting with a small crack and expanding over time. Third is the one you don't want to hear. Sometimes a Nailhead will crack a piston. Check the compression on #6 & 8. If anything out of the ordinary shows up do a leak down test, both cold and as close to operating temperature as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 (edited) Thanks - will do ! I'll let everyone know what I find. Previous owner had a basic compression test done (probably about 3 years ago now, since I've had the car for 2) and it came out looking fairly OK (see photo) Edited July 24 by Electra63 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted Saturday at 09:30 PM Author Share Posted Saturday at 09:30 PM (edited) Hello folks Well I finally made time to remove the driver side rocker cover in order to try to identify the location of the tick. By pressing down fairly firmly on each rocker arm with the end of a wooden hammer handle I think I've identified it as the rear-most valve on the driver side which I think is the #8 cylinder exhaust valve? Am I right? Anyway, here is the interesting part.... If I press down fairly hard on the end of the rocker arm above where it makes contact with the valve, the tick disappears.....BUT the exhaust note changes slightly and I can only describe the noise as if a puff of gas is intermittently blowing down the exhaust pipe in time with the engine firing. After a few seconds that noise fades and the engine runs with no tick and no 'puff' noise at all - quiet and smooth..... Then after another few seconds the tick begins to creep back in - softly at first and soon it reverts to ticking continuously again as it always has done. I'm trying to figure out what is going on and what this is telling me. Can anyone help explain this and determine what it means - does it confirm a (partially?) stuck lifter? thank you ! Mark Edited Saturday at 09:31 PM by Electra63 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted Saturday at 11:49 PM Author Share Posted Saturday at 11:49 PM Here are some pics of the 6&8 cylinder rocker arms and shaft area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted yesterday at 01:55 AM Share Posted yesterday at 01:55 AM That doesn't look terrible to me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted 23 hours ago Author Share Posted 23 hours ago Thanks. Reassuring. My son who is a big car guy told me he thought the arms/tips looked shot. I was hoping that's not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted 22 hours ago Share Posted 22 hours ago (edited) The tips are the worst part. From what I can see, there is some wear but probably not too far from normal for an engine with some miles. I'd clean them up to see how much is carbon. It's actually never a bad idea to disassemble the whole thing and clean it up with a gun cleaning kit. I'd say the shaft wear is not bad and the rocker arm bores show some wear but it doesn't look bad enough to worry about yet, in my opinion. Personally, I don't think much noise would come from that assembly based on what I'm seeing. It's not perfect, but few used engines are. Edited 22 hours ago by Aaron65 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted 20 hours ago Share Posted 20 hours ago Was (earlier while checking for your noise) the oil pressure checked with engine at operating temperature? (if low oil pressure usually noisy lifters on more cylinders NOT just 1 cylinder) What does the top off the valve stem look like (any roughness/scoring?) Photo of top of valve stem? What do the tips of the pushrods look like on both ends? Can you post photos of the pushrod tips? Do the push rods roll normal on a flat surface? (checking for slightly bent pushrod) Try to push down on center of lifter (while installed in engine) to check resistance as it is compressing and see if any weakness (less resistance) between the 2 cylinders your inspecting (checking if 1 lifter is weaker than another, possibly bad/weak lifter) Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted 20 hours ago Author Share Posted 20 hours ago Thanks Aaron There is no noticeable clicking or other noise from the rocker arms & shaft area so what you are telling me makes sense. I am interested to hear someone's opinion on the changing noise pattern that I detailed at the beginning of this post. Hopefully someone can explain what could be going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted 20 hours ago Author Share Posted 20 hours ago (edited) 14 minutes ago, NailheadBob said: What does the top off the valve stem look like (any roughness/scoring?) Photo of top of valve stem? What do the tips of the pushrods look like on both ends? Can you post photos of the pushrod tips? Thanks Bob Engine was up to temp and oil pressure is good (around 36-38 psi) Here are some pictures Pushrods looked evenly worn/shiny to me as did the mating surfaces on the arms. I didn't remove them and check for straightness. I was worried that if I pulled them out it might be difficult to get them seated back into the lifter but I suppose that's not an issue? I'll let you take a look at the valve tips and give your opinion. They looked relatively ok to me but this is the first Buick engine I've owned... Edited 20 hours ago by Electra63 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted 18 hours ago Share Posted 18 hours ago It's not hard to pull the pushrods and put them back where they belong. Just make sure you don't pull the lifter out with it! The oil between the two can create a "seal" that is tricky to break. I twist the pushrod while slightly pulling up on it until I feel the lifter's weight "break" from the pushrod. You'll understand when you try it, but don't pull up too far until you get the hang of it. Good luck! Oh, the valve tips don't look too bad to me. If I had to guess, you have a weak lifter. My '63 is much like yours - original lower end, although I had a valve job done when I bought it two years ago. It has a ticking lifter, too. It's not too bad so I haven't done anything about it yet, but next summer I may pull it out (it's on cylinder #2) and clean it. I'd rather not replace it and worry about breaking in a new lifter. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted 17 hours ago Author Share Posted 17 hours ago 50 minutes ago, Aaron65 said: next summer I may pull it out (it's on cylinder #2) and clean it. Ah ok. How much engine disassembly is involved in pulling one out for cleaning? Is it fairly easy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted 17 hours ago Share Posted 17 hours ago Probably one of the easiest V8s...the intake manifold doesn't flow water, so it's a matter of unhooking the fuel line and linkages, etc. from the carb and removing the manifold. Then it's just the valley cover, which is a couple long bolts. You'll have to remove the rocker shafts again too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted 17 hours ago Author Share Posted 17 hours ago (edited) Ok thanks None of that scares me 🙂 I think I saw on a video a while ago that pulling out the lifters requires a special tool? Is that true? I have the shop manual so I'll take a look at that section Edited 17 hours ago by Electra63 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted 16 hours ago Share Posted 16 hours ago (edited) If you are replacing lifter you can use vise grip pliers and grip on outer shell and twist back and forth as you pull up to remove lifter If you are just inspecting you would need hydraulic lifter removal tool as you don’t want to score the outside of lifer body Here is Performance Tool #W84004 I agree with @60FlatTop when intake manifold is off and turn upside down and inspect expansion plug and replace it if any doubt Dorman products makes them Bob EDIT: I agree with @Aaron65 on cleaning your lifter Edited 16 hours ago by NailheadBob (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted 14 hours ago Author Share Posted 14 hours ago Thanks, Bob I'll be sure to get the tool before starting the job, as I plan to clean/inspect (and not replace) if possible. I'll also check the expansion plug for sure. All the plugs I can see on the engine look good but it definitely makes sense to check that one while the intake manifold is off One other question: Do you have any experience of what I described ? - i.e. the ticking noise going away when pressing down on the rocker arm end and then coming back again 5-10 seconds after the after the pressure on the arm is removed? thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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