Oil Recommendation 1936 American LaFrance straight 8

[bdispenza519]

Does anyone know what kind of oil I should be using in 1936 American Lafrance Fire Truck with a AEF650 straight 8?

thanks

[ABear]

Engine oil? 🤣

 

But seriously, your gonna get a lot of opinions on this subject, straight weight, HD straight weight, multi-vis dino, multi-vis synthetic..

 

Any engine oil manufactured today exceeds manufacturers published minimum specifications in 1936 so take your pick.

 

Old days, straight weight oils were the only choice, typically 20W in cold weather, 30W, 40W in warm to hot weather. You can search the web for charts on that if you want to run straight weights but typically 30W or 40W in Summer..

 

Now days, multi-vis can be often used in older engines, just pick the range for temperatures you will be using in although you will find a lot of folks who won't use multi-vis so don't be surprised to see some negative reactions to using multi-vis.

 

I will give you a hint on prices of oils, buy them in 5qt jugs instead of individual quarts, can save you $1-$2 per quart over the single quarts now days.

 

But yeah, a very polarizing, heated subject..

[Mark Shaw]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:38 PM, ABear said:

Any engine oil manufactured today exceeds manufacturers published minimum specifications in 1936 so take your pick.

Buy what is on sale and do an oil change every year before winter storage.  

[Larry Schramm]

The cheapest oil today is better than the best oil "in the day".  As edinmass has said, the oil today is three times better than any oil "in the day.

[alsancle]

I run straight 30 Valvoline Racing Oil (VR1) which is what my dad and I have done for 50 years.   I think it is the best oil you can buy.   But, the point made by other posters is valid.   I would pick any straight 30 weight or 40 if the engine smokes a bit.

[TAKerry]

There was a long discussion at the convention about motor oil. The bottom line was that yes, todays cheap oil is better than yesterdays best oil. However it was pointed out that a high zinc level is preferred. The fellow that does my motor work told me to use Shell Rotella diesel oil. He said its the only oil he uses for all purposes. I checked and it does have a high zinc level. Thats my story and Im sticking to it!

[TTR]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

I run straight 30 Valvoline Racing Oil (VR1) which is what my dad and I have done for 50 years.   I think it is the best oil you can buy.   But, the point made by other posters is valid.   I would pick any straight 30 weight or 40 if the engine smokes a bit.

You have had a 1936 American Lafrance Fire Truck with a AEF650 straight 8 for 50 years ? 😳

 

 

[alsancle]

24 minutes ago, TTR said:

You have had a 1936 American Lafrance Fire Truck with a AEF650 straight 8 for 50 years ? 😳

 

 

Yes. It’s a family heirloom. Actually, I respond with the same answer to oil that my dad would respond with back in 1975. We’ve never changed. And then he was getting 200,000 miles out of his cars changing the oil like every 7500 miles.

[ABear]

2 hours ago, TAKerry said:

However it was pointed out that a high zinc level is preferred.

Wasn't going to comment, but..

 

In one thread it was pointed out that the high zinc level applies more to specific specialized needs of the engine. More in line with high performance engines built with high spring rates for the valves..

 

Doesn't mean you can't run high zinc levels, just means for the most part not needed and would certainly not be needed for the OPs engine.

 

Pretty much OP can use any modern day oil and it will be far, far superior to what oils were available back at the date of manufacture of that engine. You have to consider that refining oils back then, the processes were very crude to the processes in use to day, much of what was used for motor oils back then contained a lot of waxes, heavy oils, tars and other items that would be classified as impurities today. Many break through's have happened and the oils are much more highly refined resulting in better performing long lasting oils.

 

 

[TTR]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Yes. It’s a family heirloom. Actually, I respond with the same answer to oil that my dad would respond with back in 1975. We’ve never changed. And then he was getting 200,000 miles out of his cars changing the oil like every 7500 miles.

I've been using 20W-50 in almost all my and my clients vintage cars for 40 years with "guesstimated" 500K - 1M combined miles between all. Pennzoil for first couple of decades and Valvoline VR1 for last couple.

I've always been changing oil & filters every 2500-3000 miles or once a year, whichever comes first, but don't personally have any 200K mile experiences on a single vintage car or engine yet.

+/- 70K is closest I've come to, but that was with a 1950's car/engine that had been driven/used (by original owner) about 100K miles prior to my ownership, likely had never been previously rebuilt and still ran like a champ with good oil pressure when I sold her after 20 years of great service.

 

I'm getting couple of early 1970's four cam V12 (one dry and one wet sump) "Italians" ready for their annual oil & filter services within next couple of weeks and just had 5 cases of VR1 delivered yesterday.

And while factory noted capacity for each is about 17-18 qts, experience has shown that being too much, preventing oil getting warm enough under normal driving conditions, so each will (again) receive about 13-14 quarts, which is still above minimum/low capacity, but provides more appropriate oil temps.

[alsancle]

15 minutes ago, TTR said:

I've been using 20W-50 in almost all my and my clients vintage cars for 40 years with "guesstimated" 500K - 1M combined miles between all. Pennzoil for first couple of decades and Valvoline VR1 for last couple.

I've always been changing oil & filters every 2500-3000 miles or once a year, whichever comes first, but don't personally have any 200K mile experiences on a single vintage car or engine yet.

+/- 70K is closest I've come to, but that was with a 1950's car/engine that had been driven/used (by original owner) about 100K miles prior to my ownership, likely had never been previously rebuilt and still ran like a champ with good oil pressure when I sold her after 20 years of great service.

 

I'm getting couple of early 1970's four cam V12 (one dry and one wet sump) "Italians" ready for their annual oil & filter services within next couple of weeks and just had 5 cases of VR1 delivered yesterday.

And while factory noted capacity for each is about 17-18 qts, experience has shown that being too much, preventing oil getting warm enough under normal driving conditions, so each will (again) receive about 13-14 quarts, which is still above minimum/low capacity, but provides more appropriate oil temps.

 

Assuming steady temps for starting and driving (i.e. not dead of winter) could you elaborate on the 20-50 vs just straight 30 or 40?

[ABear]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Assuming steady temps for starting and driving (i.e. not dead of winter) could you elaborate on the 20-50 vs just straight 30 or 40?

If I were to bet..

 

20-50 multi-vis eliminates any need for making guesses and the 50 should cover the needs for even the most hardy oil drinker possible at operating temps.

 

Not sure if you can buy 20W-30 or 20W-40, even getting hard to find 10W-? or 20W-? as most stores are switching to stocking 5W-20 or 0W-20 as that is what a lot of modern vehicle manufacturers are requiring.

 

Basically only need to buy and stock one version and be done.

 

Working on one family heirloom that my Dad told me to use 40, but the car sat for 30 yrs and was stuck.. Have gotten it freed up, but only likes lighter weight 30, can't get 40 to flow enough around the worn rings pull enough vacuum to open the atmospheric intake valve.. Smokes like a old coal stove when running.. Someday, might try some multi-vis and see what happens. I use 10W-30 in all my other vehicles, lawn mower and even diesel tractor.

[TTR]

50 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Assuming steady temps for starting and driving (i.e. not dead of winter) could you elaborate on the 20-50 vs just straight 30 or 40?

 

36 minutes ago, ABear said:

If I were to bet..

 

20-50 multi-vis eliminates any need for making guesses and the 50 should cover the needs for even the most hardy oil drinker possible at operating temps.

First part is relatively correct, but latter is not the reason I choose to use multi weight up to 50 .

 

My reasons for use of multi weight are many, one being their chemical composition* allowing more versatile use than single weights, hence eliminating guess work or acclimation to various driving climates, which here (SoCal) can vary significantly, even during a single driving experience.

 

* Most of this was explained to me in layman's terms decades ago by a friend with an engineering degree and research experience in the field of petroleum lubricants, etc. (His informal garage "lecture" at the time even lead my mind to come up with questions he admitted being far above/beyond his abilities to adequately answer).

 

Many of my far more experienced colleagues have also been using 20W-50 engine oils in large variety of vintage cars/engines ranging up to 250 GTOs etc and have quoted or sited similar, scientifically proven explanations/studies, along with their decades long personal observations, etc.

 

There are numerous and often more relevant reasons for choosing "correct" oils and other lubricants, etc for vintage cars, but seemingly ignored in discussions like this and confirms my belief that forums like these are more often than not wrong places to ask (serious) technical question and/or to expect intelligent/meaningful answers for most.

 

YMMV.

[Brass is Best]

What did LaFrance call for? That would be a good start. 

[Grimy]

39 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

What did LaFrance call for? That would be a good start. 

Yeah, sure, let's follow an 88-yr-old factory recommendation long before multi-grade and dispersant ("detergent") oils. /s/

 

In my fleet (see signature) which live in non-freezing weather but may be subject to temps in the 90s on long tours, I run Shell Rotella T-4 (dino) 15W40 principally offered for diesel trucks and cheaply available at Walmart.  My rationales:

* multigrade to get the oil flowing fast at startup, which is when most wear occurs

* more ZDDP (which was not added to any oil until after the cars were aged) than auto-only oils oriented to saving catalytic converters which none of my cars or the subject vehicle has

* diesel oils have a lot of ash dispersant properties which I deem valuable for L-head engines (very inefficient by modern standards)

* "detergent" (a misnomer--better termed "dispersant"--search for many discussions of the ill effects of non-"detergent" oils) to minimize contaminants settling out in crankshaft passages and oil galleries

 

Now to the specific application, a fire truck.  IMHO, if the fire truck is a pumper and you will be using it as such for demos, necessitating higher rpms under considerable load, consider 20W-50.  If pumping is a rare occurrence or for short periods, I'd stay with 15W-40.

[ABear]

1 hour ago, Brass is Best said:

What did LaFrance call for? That would be a good start. 

Not really a "good start" as the oils made back then are 110% obsolete.

 

Basically those oils did not have "additive" packages, they were extremely crudely refined, barely filtered high in waxes, heavy oils and even tars.

 

Even the weight specifications we know today were virtually non existant and have evolved.

 

The closest analog we have today to what may have been specified back then would be straight 10W HD, 20W HD, 30W HD, 40W HD all which I guarantee are far purer and far more refined that was available back then.

 

So, if we take the knowledge that 20W HD- 40W HD is most likely the closest to what would have been specified you can translate that to conventional multi-vis for 20W-40.

 

The only thing I would avoid is thinner spec 0W-? 5W-? oils because those are almost always synthetics and not really any advantage to running those.

 

The only issue with using straight weight oils now days is the availability (or lack of), most retail stores no longer carry straight weight oils and the few that do might only have 30W HD or 40W HD..

 

Multi-vis does have the advantage of one and done, one version handles a variety of vehicles and tasks.

 

For your reading pleasure here is an preview overview of the history of motor oils published by SAE..

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44729150

 

To read the full article you have to find a library that has access, but the basics are on the first page.

 

Edited April 12 by ABear (see edit history)