1929 Fargo Express Panel Update

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

Jack, you are my old car (truck) hero!  Love this blog and very interested in your progress toward getting this beast on the road. Soon will be the big reward…..

[JV Puleo]

Does the hub puller that is the correct size include a clamp? If so, you can force it slightly open )very gently...you don't want to break it). Chase the threads as best you can and then lap the puller on to the hub, again, very gently working the piece pack and forth. As long as the threads will start this should work but it could take literally hours of gently tightening and loosening the puller. You will not damage the threads inside the puller as long as you do not go to far. I kn ow this is a little vague and confess that the technique does not lend itself to description as well as it would to demonstration. This is something I've done multiple times, including cases where the threaded part was badly burred or even a few thousandths too big. If you are careful with it the end result will actually be as good or even better than it was new. Post a picture of the puller if possible...

[Jack Bennett]

12 hours ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Jack, you are my old car (truck) hero!  Love this blog and very interested in your progress toward getting this beast on the road. Soon will be the big reward…..

Hi Jeff……….Yep………those are dot……dot……dot……and since I dropped out of school in the 10th grade, and never completed beauty college English, I just use them without worry of violating English etiquette.

I don’t know, nor does it matter, what your age, background or vocational experiences are. But, I do know that mine included forty four years of uniformity, discipline and “Yes Sir; Yes Sir, three bags full sir”…….and “It’s not mine to question why. Only but to do or die”.

it is a major revision of life to step out of a regimented life, take off the uniform, hang up the guns and put the badge away the last time, and try to act “normal”. 
It was manageable while my wife was with me because she was the pivot point for a continual menu of activities.

But, when I lost her my compass went haywire, I no longer had my job to immerse myself into, and being trapped inside a atrophied brain is not a good place to be.

As we enter a age associated with mental disease, and, in my case, have funds and income no longer necessary for kids clothes, dental bills, tuition and music lessons, it is very likely that there is someone waiting to part me with my burden of how my money should be spent.

So, it being necessary to restore some facsimile of order to my life, I adopted my old dog, and invited some old, and similarly tired vehicles into my home, and made my daily menu to include motor oil, semi-liquid grease, gasoline and a healthy helping of Pup-Peronist.

Needing a reason to disconnect the coming day from the previous day, and have something to do during the next stage of my life, I wake up each day and this is what I see.

To some it may seem stupid to have old cars, an old tractor and a thirty five year old lawn mower as their charges, but when I wake up each day this is what I see……..

And it gives me a sense of direction where my day should go, the orderliness, skills and time to get it there, and some sense of rewards as I look back at the end of the day.

And then I get to flush the politics, finances, religion, health problem and social ills from my system by posting it here to share with those much more fortunate, and those who share the same doldrums I am experiencing, right here on the forum.

Jack

 

 

[Jack Bennett]

11 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Does the hub puller that is the correct size include a clamp? If so, you can force it slightly open )very gently...you don't want to break it). Chase the threads as best you can and then lap the puller on to the hub, again, very gently working the piece pack and forth. As long as the threads will start this should work but it could take literally hours of gently tightening and loosening the puller. You will not damage the threads inside the puller as long as you do not go to far. I kn ow this is a little vague and confess that the technique does not lend itself to description as well as it would to demonstration. This is something I've done multiple times, including cases where the threaded part was badly burred or even a few thousandths too big. If you are careful with it the end result will actually be as good or even better than it was new. Post a picture of the puller if possible...

Hello JV…….The set of hub pullers I bought does include one which fits the threads and size of my hubs. But, it does not have the clamp, and I am hesitant to wait to find one which does.

The puller does fit the undamaged threads on the passenger side hub, and may work to remove it. But, I am waiting to try it because, if it strips the threads on that hub too, I’m saving the disappointment for a time it is more easily digested.

I went to Tacoma Screw products yesterday to see if I could buy a 2 1/2”, 16 TPI die to use to retread the hubs if I bugger that one too, and it appears that they no longer consider a 2 1/2”, 16 TPI die as something a sane person would buy, and when asked about using a thread chaser to recover the threads, I began to be a bit concerned when the counter attendant broke out his straight jacket catalog and was clearly making a mental note of my size.

The replacement of the engine, finding a suitable clutch, transmission and fabrication of a drive train to fit the whole mess was a project.

Now that I can depress the lever on the starter, the engine cranks before the first rotation is complete, sit on a springed seat……..granted it is far from being pretty…..and depress the clutch prior to smoothly shifting the transmission into low gear, and moving the pile of scrap wood and metal under its own power, I suppose the day will eventually come that the hubs will fall off……and maybe the brakes will not only work when the pedal is pressed, they just may lock up and become my next project 🤪.

Jack

[JV Puleo]

I'd be surprised if you could find a die that big. If so, it would have been for repair work because no one would thread something that big with a die otherwise. Let me know if you find anything. If you are stuck and I have the appropriate DOM tubing, I could make you a sacrificial lapping tool...i.e. just a piece of tubing threaded on the inside with holes in one end for a tommy bar. The problem is that I don't have the exact dimensions. What would really be useful would be very accurate measurements from the  good hub. Also, unless the threads are quite tight I would not want to use a puller without the clamp...can you slit it and use a big U bolt to close it up once in place.

[Jack Bennett]

2 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I'd be surprised if you could find a die that big. If so, it would have been for repair work because no one would thread something that big with a die otherwise. Let me know if you find anything. If you are stuck and I have the appropriate DOM tubing, I could make you a sacrificial lapping tool...i.e. just a piece of tubing threaded on the inside with holes in one end for a tommy bar. The problem is that I don't have the exact dimensions. What would really be useful would be very accurate measurements from the  good hub. Also, unless the threads are quite tight I would not want to use a puller without the clamp...can you slit it and use a big U bolt to close it up once in place.

I like the idea of slitting the hub puller which fits, and it is made of heavy enough gauge steel, that I could weld a clamp to it without damaging the internal threads.

I am seriously doubtful that the thread chaser will work worth a darn. But, next month I will turn 80 years old, and while it is surprising that I have made it that long, I have to wonder if I will even be around long enough to find out.

Shopping for parts, and wondering about procedures used to install them, the truck, being nothing more than a hobby project, joyfully includes a quick stop at the Class IV store on McChord or Fort Lewis to by another case of MGD, and projects such as this offers the perfect opportunity to contemplate the planned activity necessary to accomplish it, and partake of a tad of brain lubricant.

Thanks for your interest and replies…….it is what this forum is all about, and I do appreciate it.

Jack

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Come on, Jack!    I am  87 and still playing.   No project.  But playing and driving.  MGD is GOOD!

 

  Ben

[JV Puleo]

Well...you aren't that much older than I am and I'm a long way from calling it quits. My own feeling is that when we stop working, and thinking, the end follows in no time. I can 't think of how many people I've known who "retired" to Florida to sit in front of a TV all day and occasionally play golf. I think they all died of boredom...I know I would.

[Jack Bennett]

While the body is a long way from being finished, I can see the day the roof may be closed and the pace of the Fargo project slowed down a bit.

Admittedly, I have let the landscaping around the house go to want while I devoted most of my time to getting the truck ambulatory.

I am fairly confident that I made a good choice on the engine swap, and the flathead 6 cylinder, coupled to the four speed gear box, seems to have all the power needed to do a fine job of pulling the truck.

Eventually I may replace the bastardized DeSoto drive shaft I fabricated to connect the engine and transmission to the Fargo chassis, but that is way back on the burner order.

The weather is getting predictably better, and it seems like a real waste to move back inside to finish up the upholstery, but I expect a rather long summer and should be able to finish up the roof before the rain starts again.

The rear hubs are still on hold, and it may be a while before I can finish up the rear brakes and make the truck fully roadable.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

In 1964, I was a 19 year old staff, Sergeant, serving as platoon sergeant of a five tank platoon stationed along the Korean demilitarized zone.

This was a thankless job, and personal achievements were few and far between because most of the time was spent moving from one firing point to the next.
However,, the annual biggie was the eighth army tank gunnery competition in which all the Tank crews in the Republic of South Korea competed for top honors.

That year my platoon placed first, and an unnamed benefactor sprung for a weekend in Tokyo for my five tank crews and myself.

Until this afternoon, I cannot equate ever having a good feeling equal to that weekend.

But, today that changed when the mailman delivered a thing called a “thread, chaser”, and as I unpackaged it my doubts grew to monumental proportions.

For the past couple of weeks I have been struggling with removal of the rear hubs on the 1929 Fargo Express Panel project I have taken as in as a rescue truck.

I have spent much more of good money on things intended to help me pull the hubs, remove the errant nut which broke free from the bolt which attaches the spokes and hub to the drum than I consider a fair investment.

However, I learned to use the thread chaser, and, after a session more devoted to tenacity and development of a tender touch than mechanics, the hub remover I just bought on eBay threaded on the hub, and after some very delicate ministering with the threas chaser, some loving caresses, wirh a MAP torch, a huge pipe wrench and a large ball-peen hammer, the naughty hub broke free from its axle attachment.

I mention the excursion to Tokyo as one of the most memorable, and totally exhilarating experiences of my life.

Now, Saturday June 8th, 2024 will be remembered as the most memorable day since.

I also rebuilt the carburetor and found that part of the loping and unsteady idle the engine was experiencing was a leaking gasket, a frozen accelerator pump and a step up piston which had probably been seized in its bore since the 1970’s.

That fixed, along with the opportunity to now finish the rear brakes on the truck makes for a truely great day……sky divers……scuba divers and boat people, eat your hearts out because Jack is a happy camper just holding a antique hub in his hands.

Jack

 

 

Edited June 9 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[ArticiferTom]

 Congrats! Persistent prevails .. Remember on installation no lube on taper .  Hold is not from just key .

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, ArticiferTom said:

 Congrats! Persistent prevails .. Remember on installation no lube on taper .  Hold is not from just key .

Thanky Sir………The axle is clean and fairly rust free. I am nearly certain my main problem in getting the hub off is the length of time it sat and my hesitation to use brute force to get it off.

I began the front axles with the intentions of using the media blaster and scouring the back plate, cylinder and shoes to a like new shine.

It only took a few seconds of flying debris and coal dust to realize that I was causing more damage to the shoes, and spreading abrasive debris around, and that it would take longer to clean it up than just using acetone and a pressure washer.

That done, I intend on doing the same thing to the rear and rather than trying to make it pretty, I will keep it practical.

I will use some fine emory cloth to clean and polish the axle and inside the hub to ensure there is a clean/dry surface to mate, but the use of any other sort of lubricant is understood to be a no-no.

The shoes are about 50% and are in really good shape in regards to rust and loose rivets and there is no indication the axle seal has ever leaked oil on them. I already know that the pistons in the cylinders are frozen, but, hopefully, can be rebuilt and the bores honed without another long delay while searching for replacement cylinders.

I have put off replacing the brake lines until I got the rear hubs off and could do them (all three) at the same time. 
Well Sir, I am nearly at that point now, and for the first time in months I am at peace that I can return the truck to safe operating condition without breaking some un replaceable part in the process.

Thanks again for your concern, input and most welcome replies.

Jack 

Going to add here a note that the “thread chaser” is a miracle worker at renewing some really bunged up threads, and I am not sure if I could have ever gotten the hub off without it. However, a word of caution to anyone who is pressed into using one, but has no experience with the gizmo. 
It comes with no instructions, and it is presumed that the user is familiar with the device. That is an unrealistic expectation, and the machine can do some really horrible damage to the already damaged threads if it is not properly used. The handle looks like it can be used in a manner which allows it to be rotated in both directions…..wrong……if rotated backwards the die doesn’t clean existing threads, rather it digs in and creates craters where it has removed all existing threads.

The die must be used with a really exaggerated sense of finesse, and rushing will result in irreparable damage to the part. If I were in a position to offer advice I’d suggest that any person intending on using a thread chaser practice on a piece of sacrificial material…….and put any aggression or inability to use a very gentle touch aside until the threads are properly repaired.

Edited June 9 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, ArticiferTom said:

 Congrats! Persistent prevails .. Remember on installation no lube on taper .  Hold is not from just key .

Thanks for your comment Tom.

The “key” was a major concern because a similar key, on the brake/clutch operating shaft, which passes through the bell housing, and supports the throw out bearing was a seemingly impossible obstacle in removing the pedals and shaft for modification and restoration.

These keys are not the “half moon” sort, rather they are a elongated bar of a metal softer than the shaft to which they are mounted.

The key tends to freeze into the slot in the shaft as well as seizing itself to the part it was installed to keep from turning on the shaft, and, if they break free from the shaft, but move with the part being removed, they jam at the end of the groove in the shaft rather than allowing the part to glide free of the key and the shaft.

Because they are designed to shear, rather than destroy the shaft or the part, the key molds itself between the part and the shaft and refuses to be moved either in a direction to allow removal of the part or in reverse to allow removal of the key.

On the shaft I have mentioned the key is installed into a slot half way between the end of the shaft accommodating the free rotating brake pedal and the keyed clutch pedal. 
Anyway, I can whip this dead dog forever, and anyone who has never enjoyed the pain of these stubborn machines will never understand the sheer pleasure when it does finally release, and from deep inside a hidden part of the car a tiny voice can be heard saying……..”Now, that wasn’t too hard…………was it”?🤓

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/7/2024 at 8:41 AM, JV Puleo said:

Well...you aren't that much older than I am and I'm a long way from calling it quits. My own feeling is that when we stop working, and thinking, the end follows in no time. I can 't think of how many people I've known who "retired" to Florida to sit in front of a TV all day and occasionally play golf. I think they all died of boredom...I know I would.

In a few minutes I need to go back outside and start disassembling the brakes on the rear of the Fargo.

But, I can’t close out this gab session without responding to your post.

While most people hope to slowly slip into death, and die with a sense of “It was a long, and prosperous life, and I am grateful to have lived as long as I have”……..and peacefully drift of into a eternal sleep.

To the contrary, I intend on going out only after a lengthy and intense struggle, a whole lot of grasping, writhing and punching, and most certainly some choice words my mother would blush if she heard me use.

Then, and only then, will I surrender, and that surrender will come only when my demands for one final MGD, to take along and enjoy during the journey, is met.

Jack

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

5 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

To the contrary, I intend on going out only after a lengthy and intense struggle, a whole lot of grasping, writhing and punching, and most certainly some choice words my mother would blush if she heard me use.

Congratulations on your success! I went through the same process with my ‘48 NYer. I remember the euphoria like that experienced by you.

As far as the quote I took from your text, I would prefer a quiet “instant transfer”🤣

[Jack Bennett]

I follow the antique car forums to learn more about my antique cars, their mechanical features, maintenance tips, and to communicate with people with similar interests.

For a while I have been posting the saga of returning a 1929 Fargo Express Panel Delivery to service, and it is information on this truck I wish to share.

A hurdle in returning the truck to use was restoring the badly deteriorated hydraulic brake system to use.

One colossal bump in this rather rutty road was finding a hub puller needed to pull the hubs, and access the rear brakes to working condition.

After spending several hundred dollars on a variety of pullers and bearing splitters, which have provided bullet proof results in the past, I reached a stage where I had resigned myself to the possibility I would have to replace the entire rear end, or have a paid machinist cut the hub free from its axel.

After much anguish, and no less than a few pints of shed blood, I decided to buy a thread chaser to restore the badly damaged threads, and a antique hub puller which supposedly fit the Fargo hubs.

Cut to the end of the chapter by just saying “it worked”, and the hub finally came free after a week long soak in penetrating oil, applied heat from a MAP torch and some really sincere prayers.

The axle upon which the hub was mounter is relatively blemish and rust free, and the key is undamaged. Considering those factors the hub should have been easily removed through the use of any of the aforementioned tools.

But, after it was removed, and upon closer inspection I determined that a circumstance I should have expected, but failed to observe was the principle cause of my difficulties in the otherwise simple task of removing the hub.

The truck was last registered in Oregon in 1976, and its condition hinted that it had been parked since then.

Oregon is a coastal state and has both a lot of airborne salt from the ocean as well as the salt used as a ice deterrent on the roads during snow season.

The rear wheel on the truck could be rotated with about the same amount of resistance one would expect from an adjusted, but extremely rusty set of brake shoes contacting the drum. This led me to believe that the resistance I was getting while trying to remove the hub was coming from the axle and or the key which secured it to the axle.

However, it appears that the truck was parked several decades ago i a area prone to rust, and the brake drums had formed a very prominent ridge of rust around the inner rim of the hub and had diminished the size of the hub to a measure whereby it was nearly impossible to remove the hub far enough out to clear the brake shoes.

So, actually, it was not a better puller which finally facilitated the removal of the hubs. Rather, it was the penetrant I had continually applied to the area of the hub where it meets the brake back plate, and only after the rust ring had softened enough to be scraped off as it passed over the shoes was I able to remove the hub from the axle.

Mundane and probably a useless bit of information, but, it did occur while I worked on a antique car, and if you are working on a antique car, and are being vexed by removal of a stubborn hub, perhaps your dues to join the forum was well spent by reading this.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

17 hours ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Congratulations on your success! I went through the same process with my ‘48 NYer. I remember the euphoria like that experienced by you.

As far as the quote I took from your text, I would prefer a quiet “instant transfer”🤣

In regards to your quote of my quote of your quote regarding “passing”.

As a old soldier, my quote of your quote WAS accurate.

However, since my status has shifted from old soldier to old coot, I am prone to full agreement of your last quote.

Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

A bit of slack time this morning before I resume my attempts to finish the brakes on the 1929 Fargo Express panel.

As usual, I peruse (troll/voyeur) the antique car forums while I have my coffee, and I am getting a new set of vibes regarding the direction I should go with the truck.

When I determined that there actually wasn’t enough of the original truck left to economically “restore” it to a near new condition, I decided to “preserve” it so that as time (meaning the amount of time I have left became more predictable) I could decide how much I could afford to spend on the truck.

However, after perusing the AACA site this morning I am considering a new route to follow in regards to reanimation of the truck.

Maybe it should be stripped to the frame, equipped with a all aluminum or fiberglass reproduction body, outfitted with state of the art electronics, such as satellite radio and GPS, having the cab extended to include a sleeper, couch, arm chair, water bed, microwave and a 70” ROKU television.

Naturally, the chrome (designer), 36” wide wheels would need to be attached to a tuned suspension system with computer stabilized ride controls and some whopping (bright red ceramic painted) calipers and disc brakes.

And I believe a supercharged 440 Magnum engine would be a good, and authentically MOPAR, engine to replace the paltry straight six cylinder 218 CI engine I replace the original straight six engine with.

I think I can get away with only a $125,000.00 cash outlay to do this minor modification, and I believe I can safely plan on another 40 years of labor, after I withdraw from retirement and rejoin the labor force, to pay for it.

Or,I may drive my stock 1923 Dodge Brothers roadster to Denny’s and splurge for a pancake and sausage breakfast and another cup of coffee🙄.

Jack

Edited June 12 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[31 LaSalle]

14 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

A bit of slack time this morning before I resume my attempts to finish the brakes on the 1929 Fargo Express panel.

As usual, I peruse (troll/voyeur) the antique car forums while I have my coffee, and I am getting a new set of vibes regarding the direction I should go with the truck.

When I determined that there actually wasn’t enough of the original truck left to economically “restore” it to a near new condition, I decided to “preserve” it so that as time (meaning the amount of time I have left became more predictable) I could decide how much I could afford to spend on the truck.

However, after perusing the AACA site this morning I am considering a new route to follow in regards to reanimation of the truck.

Maybe it should be stripped to the frame, equipped with a all aluminum or fiberglass reproduction body, outfitted with state of the art electronics, such as satellite radio and GPS, having the cab extended to include a sleeper, couch, arm chair, water bed, microwave and a 70” ROKU television.

Naturally, the chrome (designer), 36” wide wheels would need to be attached to a tuned suspension system with computer stabilized ride controls and some whopping (bright red ceramic painted) calipers and disc brakes.

And I believe a supercharged 440 Magnum engine would be a good, and authentically MOPAR, engine to replace the paltry straight six cylinder 218 CI engine I replace the original straight six engine with.

I think I can get away with only a $125,000.00 cash outlay to do this minor modification, and I believe I can safely plan on another 40 years of labor, after I withdraw from retirement and rejoin the labor force, to pay for it.

Or,I may drive my stock 1923 Dodge Brothers roadster to Denny’s and splurge for a pancake and sausage breakfast and another cup of coffee🙄.

Jack

Second Option Sounds Good To Me Enjoy

[Jack Bennett]

My posts are often too long, too wordy, too windy, meander endlessly, usually make no point, and, when you have finished reading them, you are left with a single question “What the he** did he just say”?

Alacontraire though, I’ll bet you would be more disappointed, and possibly asking the question of “Why the he** do I even bother to open a page to a forum where nobody has the gumption, or even the interest to post a single comment”.

On this particular forum I sincerely doubt that either would ever be the case, so, if you did finish reading this, thus far, you are probably asking yourself the single question “What the he** did he just say”………..and smile 😁.

Jack

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Jack Bennett said:

My posts are often too long, too wordy, too windy, meander endlessly, usually make no point, and, when you have finished reading them, you are left with a single question “What the he** did he just say”?

Alacontraire though, I’ll bet you would be more disappointed, and possibly asking the question of “Why the he** do I even bother to open a page to a forum where nobody has the gumption, or even the interest to post a single comment”.

On this particular forum I sincerely doubt that either would ever be the case, so, if you did finish reading this, thus far, you are probably asking yourself the single question “What the he** did he just say”………..and smile 😁.

Jack

 

 Dang, Jack!   I would like to sit at the table, in the shade of a large tree,  and visit.   Maybe with Bernie there.      On second thought, a fly on the wall with you and Bernie at the table.

 

  Ben

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

Jack,

You are right in my top 3 persons posting on this forum along with @edinmass and

Cadillac Carl (rip). 
All other persons who post on this forum are in a 4th place tie.

Edited June 14 by Jeff Perkins / Mn (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

5 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Dang, Jack!   I would like to sit at the table, in the shade of a large tree,  and visit.   Maybe with Bernie there.      On second thought, a fly on the wall with you and Bernie at the table.

 

  Ben

Thanks (?) Ben.

Maybe we can sit at the table, in the shade of a large tree, and just speculate, with Bernie, the advantage of being a fly on the wall.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Jack,

You are right in my top 3 persons posting on this forum along with @edinmass and

Cadillac Carl (rip). 
All other persons who post on this forum are in a 4th place tie.

Welllllllllllllllll, psawaaaaaaaaa……awwwwwshucks….."thanks Jeff!

I went to a very ornate funeral of a long time friend.

Her husband stood at the end of her silk lined, very luxurious casket and greeted the grievers……..many of whom I had never met before, and was 100% certain they had never spoke a single word to my friend during her mortal existence on earth. 
Barely audible above the theatrics being performed by the church staff, the most frequently heard comment was……”She almost looks alive…..it makes you wonder what she would say if she were”.

For me that is no problem because I fully intend on saying whatever, to whomever, wherever and whenever I feel the need, and I don’t intend on anyone having to attend my funeral to almost hear it. 
Chalk it up to verbosity or a bad case of verbal acuity, but, regardless, it is a incurable malady and that is why they put a “delete” key on the computer key board.

 

 

[Jack Bennett]

The rain and wind held off today and allowed me a bit of time to work on the left front brake of my old Fargo Express panel.

I have done the right front and left rear cylinders and checked the shoes, and found them to be marginal to good, so I restored them to working condition and moved on.

After each project I again checked the master cylinder to see if the wheel cylinders responded to its control, and again found that, regardless of having removed it (the master cylinder) no less than five times, disassembled it and bled it before reinstalling it, I still could not get a response from the wheel cylinder in spite of knowing for certain the wheel cylinder was working perfectly.

So, in a race with the rain and uncomfortable weather, I removed every brake line running between the front wheel cylinder and the master cylinder and found them (the lines) to be plugged with rock hard debris.

I think I have found a problem that needs to be addressed every time anyone undertakes a brake job on one of these old machines.

I used a piece of metallic choke cable as a rooter, and in about a hours work, had the single brake line cleared with a free flow restored.

Now I can see the need to remove and clear essentially every inch of brake lines on the truck as I can be nearly certain that it has affected the entire brake system.

But, it sure does make me feel good to know that I found this solvable problem before I popped for a new, and relatively expensive master cylinder.

Jack

[bradsan]

Jack

 

Was the brake parts 'happy face' intentional or just a happy coincidence?

Whichever the origin, I simply can't unsee it now!

 

Love the posts with all the musings and meanderings.

 

Brad

[JV Puleo]

Jack, what are the brake lines made of? There were cars in the mid 30s that had copper lines but otherwise they were steel and I would be very leery of just cleaning them out. That will do as a test but they corrode from the inside so how they look isn't a good test of how good they are. Having identified the problem, I'd replace the lines, probably using a copper/nickel alloy. This stuff is readily available (albeit it not at NAPA) and will not corrode.

[Jack Bennett]

4 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Jack, what are the brake lines made of? There were cars in the mid 30s that had copper lines but otherwise they were steel and I would be very leery of just cleaning them out. That will do as a test but they corrode from the inside so how they look isn't a good test of how good they are. Having identified the problem, I'd replace the lines, probably using a copper/nickel alloy. This stuff is readily available (albeit it not at NAPA) and will not corrode.

Hi JV…….There is a whole lot of guilt, and a tad of self admonishment, regarding my way of maintaining headway in reanimating the Fargo.

The brake lines in the front of the truck are a mixture of original steel, added copper and regular, flexible braided steel, rubber covered lines.

I am plagued with the overwhelming, ongoing, and continual impulse to just replace the complete brake system with new or repop equipment,

And the hesitance to replace the master cylinder, wheel cylinders and all brake lines with new materials has absolutely nothing to do with the consequential expense.

Rather, the truck is purely a hobby related toy. It has no title, the fellow who sold me the truck kept the 1976 Oregon license plates, it has never been registered in Washington State, and I never intend on turning it into a daily driver. Most probably, the longest trip it will ever make, in my life time anyway, is around the block, on a seldom used street.

I have already spent a few times what a professional restoration would cost on just getting the truck to move under its own power. That said, maybe it is easier to understand why I hesitate and procrastinate replacing the complete brake system on a 95 year old truck which is barely capable of moving, and when it does, stopping, even without brakes, is a certainty.

If the truck decides it wants to live a active life, and it is ever capable of going faster than can be stopped with a brick under the wheel, I think replacement of a fully functional (old) brake system with a new one will be as much fun as replacing the brake system on a truck which may never leave my back yard.

Its more about the day when a 95 year old brake system, on a 95 year old truck is restored to a condition it can do its intended job without the use of modern day gimmitry.

And, there is no better sound than that an old master cylinder, previously a block of grody steel and pitted aluminum, makes when it says……gwoooooooosh….as it takes its first breath in nearly 100 years.

And then it’s MGD time!

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/15/2024 at 9:31 AM, bradsan said:

Jack

 

Was the brake parts 'happy face' intentional or just a happy coincidence?

Whichever the origin, I simply can't unsee it now!

 

Love the posts with all the musings and meanderings.

 

Brad

Hi Brad……Whether it be a product of creation, or the consequence of evolution, the human brain consumes more energy, and produces more crap (in terms of verbiage and garbage) than any other part of the body.

Old cars, and their history are as much a part of this hobby as is a Detroit Lubricator carburetor or a Skinner vacuum tank fuel system.

Accordingly, did you know that the design of the 1950’s era cars, I.e, the “shoebox” and “bathtub” look had more to do with “headroom” than it  had to do with being “stylish”……as tail fins and supersized bumpers were?

These cars were designed and marketed with the fact in mind that a hat was a part of a mans persona, and the tops were made high enough to accommodate a Stetson, a fedora, a bonnet, or a cops cap.

Now, consider that one of the intended purposes of a cap, or hat, is to conserve heat loss (yep, heat rises, and the brain falters when chilled beyond a certain point), and it also identifies a person by status and vocation.

So, along with thinking, the brain serves the purpose of keeping the hat from covering the eyes, and causing one to give anyone the impression we a a stumbling fool.

To the point…..words, whether they be posted to this forum, or an essential part of a PHD thesis are only “brain food” if consumed as a part of a meal….and sometime reading my posts becomes a marathon of gluttony, which extends beyond a healthy meal, and the smile implies anyone reading that far must be really hungry.

Jack

 

[JV Puleo]

I certainly understand that point of view. Not everything has to be brought up to "new" (or better than new) specifications but I'm still very conservative where hydraulic brakes are concerned. It's why I actually prefer mechanical brakes. It's a fallacy that hydraulic brakes "stop better". The salient factor is the tire surface on the road. They were adopted because they are self regulating. Mechanical brakes take a lot more fine tuning, something that very few owners bothered with and, as a result, hydraulics were "safer" in the sense that they were far less prone to going out of adjustment. However, they do have their drawbacks, one of which is that when they fail, they fail catastrophically. This is especially true when there is only one master cylinder. I'm  quite at home with a lot of your repairs...in the same situation I would likely do similar. I also understand how we can get so deep in a project like this that the money no longer makes any rational sense. But it's not a rational hobby (if any is) and bringing a tired old machine back from the dead is a very rewarding experience.

 

If you can, could you post a picture of the thread chasing tool that worked? I'm curious about that and it's something I may well have to know about in the future. I rather enjoy cutting threads on my lathe but sometimes it simply isn't realistic to make a whole part just to save the threads. If you go to my 1910 Mitchell thread you can see how I repaired a front hub. It starts around page 77. This isn't the same situation at all but it's a good example of how we can get sucked into repairing something that, realistically, is  beyond repair....like your Fargo.😃

 

EDIT; I would not replace everything...the brakes themselves can certainly be used and if they start to fail it will be gradual and noticeable. It's only the hydraulic lines I'm concerned about. We'd just as soon keep you posting and not find out you'd run into a tree in your back yard.

Edited June 16 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[bradsan]

JV

 

As we all  know , hydraulic brakes only "stop better" if one does a disc brake conversation. 😁

 

Agree, cunifer is a bit spendy but I would definitely go for the modification.

 

Brad

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/16/2024 at 2:03 PM, JV Puleo said:

I certainly understand that point of view. Not everything has to be brought up to "new" (or better than new) specifications but I'm still very conservative where hydraulic brakes are concerned. It's why I actually prefer mechanical brakes. It's a fallacy that hydraulic brakes "stop better". The salient factor is the tire surface on the road. They were adopted because they are self regulating. Mechanical brakes take a lot more fine tuning, something that very few owners bothered with and, as a result, hydraulics were "safer" in the sense that they were far less prone to going out of adjustment. However, they do have their drawbacks, one of which is that when they fail, they fail catastrophically. This is especially true when there is only one master cylinder. I'm  quite at home with a lot of your repairs...in the same situation I would likely do similar. I also understand how we can get so deep in a project like this that the money no longer makes any rational sense. But it's not a rational hobby (if any is) and bringing a tired old machine back from the dead is a very rewarding experience.

 

If you can, could you post a picture of the thread chasing tool that worked? I'm curious about that and it's something I may well have to know about in the future. I rather enjoy cutting threads on my lathe but sometimes it simply isn't realistic to make a whole part just to save the threads. If you go to my 1910 Mitchell thread you can see how I repaired a front hub. It starts around page 77. This isn't the same situation at all but it's a good example of how we can get sucked into repairing something that, realistically, is  beyond repair....like your Fargo.😃

 

EDIT; I would not replace everything...the brakes themselves can certainly be used and if they start to fail it will be gradual and noticeable. It's only the hydraulic lines I'm concerned about. We'd just as soon keep you posting and not find out you'd run into a tree in your back yard.

Hi JV. I will try to do this post without all the parsley and trimmings, but it may still take a couple of posts to fit the photos in.

My three go to cars is a 1923 Dodge Brothers Roadster with the four cylinder (non-fast) Dodge engine, the stock three speed transmission with the six disc clutch.

It has brakes on the rear wheels only and they are external constricting, totally mechanical. Since I live right on the coast, every road goes downhill, and some of those are sloped to the extreme.

The car has tires which measure less than 5” across at the point contacting the pavement, so their inability to lend much traction while stopping the car on wet pavement needs no explanation.

of the three cars I have the least amount of trust (meaning I am much more cautious) in these brakes than the other two.

They always work, and can be counted on to do their best, and the fact that is just a few feet short of being good enough, has nothing to do with their being mechanical rather than hydraulic.

The 1927 Willys Knight is also mechanical, but it is a strange beast in that it has internal expanding shoes on the front and external constricting brakes on the rear, and the mechanical linkage connects the two through a mechanical brake proportioning device, that does the same thing mechanically as one would desire on a hydraulic system.

This is a heavy sedan, the sleeve valve engine is also heavy, but produces plenty of power to move the car at a reasonably good clip.

The brakes on this car was 100% reclined by Jerry Hiatt, who works/or worked out of his shop near Portland, and every piece of hardware which makes up the brake system was went over with a fine tooth comb, and adjusted to near perfection.

The brakes does make a squeal when first applied on a wet day, but are otherwise bullet proof and as good as any hydraulic brakes I have used.

The third car is the 1951 Plymouth Cambridge, which is a bomb in motion, and equally as challenging to stop.

It too has an all hydraulic brake system, with a master cylinder tucked so far beneath the drivers seat one would think they tried hiding it.

Each front wheel has two pistons, and I suppose, while this is a interesting thing to add, I still have zero trust in the brake system even though it is totally new.

It does work excellent when it does work, and while it always stops the car on level ground, it does it in a manner which borders on heart attack territory on hills.

The brakes are adjusted and all parts are working properly, it is just a heavy car, low slung with a gooey suspension system, and scares hell out of you when you start wondering if it will stop in the planned distance.

The Fargo was a total surprise to find that the whole brake system, as compared to the 1927 Willys mechanical brakes, seemed to be far advanced technologically when compared to what I expected on a vehicle of that era.

Regardless, I have made good use of the thread chaser, which I have posted some photos, along with the several dies used for different tread size and count. Again, I had a level of zero when it came to confidence this thing would even work……but it proved to be worth every penny spent for it.

I have also put up a photo of the five piece hub puller I sourced for $45.00 and S&H change from eBay.

All cylinders and lines I have done so far have been corroded and frozen into a solid mass. The front flex line have lost their outside covers but will still hold a good vacuum, so I have removed their stoppage and will re-use them

The right rear wheel is a totally different story, and the cause of a problem which was much misunderstood reared it’s ugly head and revealed a need to replace the rear brake lines in totality.

It appears that many years ago a attempt was made to move the truck by wrapping one end of a chain or cable around the rear axle, and the other was hooked to some sort of tow vehicle.

I guess the truck was moved but only at the expense of the brake line, which traverses the rear axle, was crushed in several places.

That trapped the fluid in the right rear wheel cylinder, and over the years it nearly dissolved the rubber parts of the cylinder, and locked the whole mechanism into a solid mass of goop.

I have re-used the pistons and cups in the other three cylinders, but can expect to spend some dollars to repair the fourth.

And that leads me to the explanation that working on a car in Washington State is not unlike trying to stay married in Germany.

So, my primary goal with the Fargo now is to preserve enough of its originality that I can make it mobile and, as the rain and wind make working outside impossible, I can move it into the heated and lighted garage to work on it in much better conditions.

If I don’t get the rust under control and the wood rot stopped, in a few more months, if left outside, I won’t have any base material left to work with.

And, here are some photos of the thread chaser, the dies that comes with it, the five hub pullers I bought, and a photo of my upholstery undertaking to prepare the Fargo, and my tender butt, for the voyage between my back yard and the garage.

Jack

 

Edited June 18 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/16/2024 at 2:03 PM, JV Puleo said:

I certainly understand that point of view. Not everything has to be brought up to "new" (or better than new) specifications but I'm still very conservative where hydraulic brakes are concerned.

“Gizmo”, the 1995 Ford F-250 I bought as a project to build a tow vehicle for the trailer I built to haul my tractor and other car projects was dropped in my driveway after dark.

I was told the truck needed a lot of work, and, being bought as a restoration project, this came as no surprise.

What did surprise me though that when I held the foot brake, released the emergency brake, and took the truck out of park to move it to the side of the driveway, there was no brakes, period.

The next few seconds did make planting a tree as a stop barrier between the driveways end, and the garage doors beginning seem like a bit of good sense.

Luckily, I am a fair carpenter, and the damage to the trucks hood, bumper, grill and headlights were considered a part of the restoration project.

On 6/15/2024 at 9:31 AM, bradsan said:

Jack

 

Was the brake parts 'happy face' intentional or just a happy coincidence?

Whichever the origin, I simply can't unsee it now!

 

Love the posts with all the musings and meanderings.

 

Brad

 

On 6/16/2024 at 12:27 PM, Jack Bennett said:

Hi Brad……Whether it be a product of creation, or the consequence of evolution, the human brain consumes more energy, and produces more crap (in terms of verbiage and garbage) than any other part of the body.

Old cars, and their history are as much a part of this hobby as is a Detroit Lubricator carburetor or a Skinner vacuum tank fuel system.

Accordingly, did you know that the design of the 1950’s era cars, I.e, the “shoebox” and “bathtub” look had more to do with “headroom” than it  had to do with being “stylish”……as tail fins and supersized bumpers were?

These cars were designed and marketed with the fact in mind that a hat was a part of a mans persona, and the tops were made high enough to accommodate a Stetson, a fedora, a bonnet, or a cops cap.

Now, consider that one of the intended purposes of a cap, or hat, is to conserve heat loss (yep, heat rises, and the brain falters when chilled beyond a certain point), and it also identifies a person by status and vocation.

So, along with thinking, the brain serves the purpose of keeping the hat from covering the eyes, and causing one to give anyone the impression we a a stumbling fool.

To the point…..words, whether they be posted to this forum, or an essential part of a PHD thesis are only “brain food” if consumed as a part of a meal….and sometime reading my posts becomes a marathon of gluttony, which extends beyond a healthy meal, and the smile implies anyone reading that far must be really hungry.

Jack

 

YeeeeeeeeGaaaaaaads, that went right over my head.

I guess I do need to take a occasional break from breaking for a MGD to pay more attention to my surroundings.

I just noticed the brake parts happy face you mentioned, and it is needless to say I am a little face eggish right now.

No, even though it may rate as the sort of artwork I would be credited with, the brake parts smiley face was totally a awesome phenomenon for which mom nature deserves all credit.

Thanks for pointing it out, and leaving me with the indelible understanding that I too will now will be able to “unsee” it forever.

Jack

[30DodgePanel]

Hopefully this clears things up for anyone wanting to know the differences between the 1/2 ton Packet and the 3/4 ton Clipper.  They had more similarities than most of us realized.

 

Jack, I believe you have a Clipper, the following is why I believe that.

 

 

From a Operations & Maintenance Magazine Oct, 5 1928

 

 

 

Note the outer body length on the Clipper is 175" , but it appears both the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton models were completely interchangeable so the wheelbase was probably the same on both models so you have to dig deeper into these bits of information to get a proper I.D. once and for all.

 

 

This next snippet is from Automotive Industries Sept 29, 1928 - Check your frame measurements especially, that will tell you what you have for sure. 
The 3/4 ton Dodge trucks used 2 1/2" hubs, 1/2 tons used 2 3/8" respectfully so I'm sure the clipper and packet did as well. If your frame matches these measurements then you definitely have a Clipper. 

 

 

 

Your original engine was a Chrysler 65 - Please save it, do not scrap.

 

 

 

[Jack Bennett]

Hi Dave……..Thank you for the information and the thought of providing it.

In a previous post you had noted that you thought it was a 3/4 ton, vs a 1/2 ton, and that started me reading too.

I am in 100% agreement with you, but they have done some stuff to the truck which makes deciding whether it is a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton a bit more difficult.

My research led me to the same place you are in determining that there is only a small amount of difference between the Packet and the Clipper, and on this particular truck, which I too, now, believe to be a Clipper, they have changed the rear fenders and the size of the wheels. 
I read that one of the most noticeable differences between the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton is the 1/2 ton came with a four cylinder engine while the 3/4 ton has a six cylinder.

Of course mine has the six cylinder, and the spring pile up surely is more likely a 3/4 tons than that expected to be found on a half ton.

Very likely this project will be the last antique car or truck I ever buy, but it also has the prospectus of being a project which will keep me busy for the next 50 years or so.

I have the engine I removed from the truck under cover, and it will be a project for this winter since I do intend on eventually restoring it to running condition and reinstalling it in the truck.

At the minute I am not so concerned with the originality of whatever engine moves to truck as I am being able to move the truck for completion of processes, such as paint, welding and upholstery which can be destroyed by the weather between the time I start it, and the time it takes, at a relaxed, hobby, speed to finish it.

Were the truck anything other than a oddity, and so darned evil, I would call the Chinese and give them the thing to make into a microwave or a few paper weights.

But, the day will come, maybe later than sooner, that the truck will start, drive and stop under its own power, and then the cosmetics can start.

Jack

Edited June 18 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

I have the brake parts on order, and they should be here this week to finish up the brakes on the truck.
In order to get the truck to be able to move under its own power, I have to finish up the floorboards, the gas pedal, the starter pedal, and get the brake and clutch pedals adjusted.

That will leave me an appoint. I can finish it up the dashboard and its instruments. I have just about figured out how this should look, but there are many ways I can go about it.

If anyone has a photograph of the cab of a 1929, 30, or 31 and Fargo, Express panel, I’d sure like to see it. 
my primary concern is the way the wood part, that extends below of the windshield, and ends where the top of the metal dashboard starts, merges.

Does the wood just end and the metal just start or is there some sort of trim piece fits below the wood to smooth the merge of the wood to the metal.

Jack

[30DodgePanel]

Again. Wes Rinella posted this on the Dodge Brothers section a few years back. Not sure how to copy and paste the link to the thread from my phone but if you go to the DB section and search “1929 Fargo Packet” it will come up. Both the Packet and Clipper should have the same dash design. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[bradsan]

On 6/18/2024 at 8:45 AM, Jack Bennett said:

Hi Dave……..Thank you for the information and the thought of providing it.

In a previous post you had noted that you thought it was a 3/4 ton, vs a 1/2 ton, and that started me reading too.

I am in 100% agreement with you, but they have done some stuff to the truck which makes deciding whether it is a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton a bit more difficult.

My research led me to the same place you are in determining that there is only a small amount of difference between the Packet and the Clipper, and on this particular truck, which I too, now, believe to be a Clipper, they have changed the rear fenders and the size of the wheels. 
I read that one of the most noticeable differences between the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton is the 1/2 ton came with a four cylinder engine while the 3/4 ton has a six cylinder.

Of course mine has the six cylinder, and the spring pile up surely is more likely a 3/4 tons than that expected to be found on a half ton.

Very likely this project will be the last antique car or truck I ever buy, but it also has the prospectus of being a project which will keep me busy for the next 50 years or so.

I have the engine I removed from the truck under cover, and it will be a project for this winter since I do intend on eventually restoring it to running condition and reinstalling it in the truck.

At the minute I am not so concerned with the originality of whatever engine moves to truck as I am being able to move the truck for completion of processes, such as paint, welding and upholstery which can be destroyed by the weather between the time I start it, and the time it takes, at a relaxed, hobby, speed to finish it.

Were the truck anything other than a oddity, and so darned evil, I would call the Chinese and give them the thing to make into a microwave or a few paper weights.

But, the day will come, maybe later than sooner, that the truck will start, drive and stop under its own power, and then the cosmetics can start.

Jack

I think that the real difference between a 1/2  ton and a 3/4 ton is a state of mind: a combination of courage and common sense ( or lack thereof).

I have a Model TT - I think the rating is  best described as marketing.

 

Brad

[Jack Bennett]

Going to a search for a pool “8” ball.

The floor boards of the Fargo Express is near enough finished the truck is telling me a bit about what is next.

Study the history of the people who built them, and look at the the time frame in which they were built. and your 1950 Ford or 1951 Plymouth becomes a class room full of stories regarding the countless hours of the people who invested a huge portion of their income, and endless hours they spent in them.

The Fargo was a service truck which probably was on call for dispatch 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

The people who made their living driving it probably not only depended on the truck to get them from point A to point B, there was a lifeline to other truckers who depended on the driver of the Fargo Express, who may have depended on the cargo the truck delivered for their livelihood.

And, looking at the times, I have no problem imagining the driver of the Fargo hanging out at a floating poker game or pool hall as he/she waited for that next dispatch call.

Back to the history of our projects…….the engine and transmission I put in the Fargo was out of a 1951 Dodge Pilothouse.

And as the name hints at, the Dodge Pilothouse was built with a high roof line to replicate the pilot house of a boat.

Everything bolted up pretty well except that the transmission shift lever is so long I had to cut about 8” off it because it extended into the Fargo steering wheel.

Cutting it was no problem, but the bitter end of the shift lever is, and I need to thread it and put a ball on it.

The truck is now opening up and telling me some of the secrets which was stymied by the near death experience it has endured.

And, the answer it gives me regarding a topper to fit the shift lever is a drilled and tapped pool 8 ball.

I am not questioning “why” a “8 ball” but that what the truck wants, and I’d like to meet its need if  possible.

So, if you happen to have a old 8 ball laying around, and you think our old machines go beyond rubber, wood a sheet metal, if you are willing to send it I’ll happily pay the postage.

And, hopefully, it gets here before the guys who  use a straight jacket as a routine part of their job do.

Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, bradsan said:

I think that the real difference between a 1/2  ton and a 3/4 ton is a state of mind: a combination of courage and common sense ( or lack thereof).

I have a Model TT - I think the rating is  best described as marketing.

 

Brad

I have no problem determining that the Fargo is a multi format truck, and if and doubt exists whether or no it can be a 3/4 ton, one only has to look at the massive rear spring pile up.

I think, to expedite the orders for a 3/4 ton and still have the 1/2 ton available for sale was the engine size and the wheel base.

It has been strongly suggested that the panel I have is a “Clipper” 3/4 ton, and not a packet 1/2 ton. And the winning argument is that the truck I’m working on came with a six cylinder engine and that defines the difference between it, and a 1/2 ton which came with a four cylinder engine.

Come the time and I will post a photo of the Fargo Express I am working on, and it is easily noticeable that the rear fenders are designed to accommodate both the short wheel base of the 1/2 ton, and quickly prepare it for sale as a 3/4 ton by moving the rear axel toward the back, without further changes, other than the engine size and driveshaft without further changes to the cab or chassis.

Jack