1984 Buick Regal Engine Diagram 231CI 3.8L V6

[Larry Schramm]

Take another picture of the remains and lets see where you are.  I still believe that some heat and a correct size of vice-grip would be the answer to your problem unless the remains are broken off at the block.

Edited May 12 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[EmTee]

I don't currently own a car with the 3800, but doesn't it screw into the filter adapter (see figure)?

 

It may be easier to get a grip on the remains if you remove the filter adapter and take it to the workbench.

[joe_padavano]

17 minutes ago, EmTee said:

I don't currently own a car with the 3800, but doesn't it screw into the filter adapter (see figure)?

 

It may be easier to get a grip on the remains if you remove the filter adapter and take it to the workbench.

Not from the photo the OP posted.

 

[TAKerry]

May be over simplified but have you hit the fitting with PB blaster. That will loosen rusted bolts. I feel your frustration as a novice mechanic at best I have been in your situation too many times to think about. But you just need to persevere and eventually the right combination of tricks and tools will prevail. Its ok to punt. Take a break for a couple of days, then hit it again with a fresh idea. I still think with the correct vice grip and pb blaster soaking for a few days you should be able to break it loose. 

OR/

Do you have a socket that will beat onto that fitting tightly? Maybe do that with a long breaker bar. You may never get the part out of the socket but if it works a worthwhile sacrifice. Thats how I got a set of lug nut locks off without the key.

[EmTee]

29 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Not from the photo the OP posted.

OK, I guess the 3800 is different than the '80s 231 in that regard.  Not much left externally to work with there...

[JACK M]

I will add this.

Vice Grip is a brand name and probably one of the better locking pliers on the market.

I have a pair of cheapo crap grips that I should throw away as the jaws tend to let go when you look at them to hard.

Just sayin, use good quality tools, especially in tough cases like this.

 

[Matt88RegalCustom]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:10 PM, Ronnie said:

You want to get a set similar to the one in the link below. I don't know anything about that brand so I'm not recommending it, but the photos of the set are a good illustration of a set like you need. I like the spiral extractors better than the fluted design for removing something like the sensor you are trying to remove.

 

14Pcs Screw Extractor and Left Hand Drill Bits Set, Bolt Remover Reverse Cobalt HSS Steel Drill Bit for Remove Stripped Screws and Broken Bolts - Amazon.com

 

Without being there to look at the sensor you're trying to remove it would be hard to recommend the extractor size you will need. I'm betting the sensor has 1/8" tapered pipe threads that screw into the block. If that's true, the sensor should have a 1/8" hole in it to guide the drill bit. I would enlarge the hole in it with a 1/4" LEFT hand drill bit like is included in the kit that I linked to. That should still leave enough metal in the sensor for the extractor to bite into.

 

You want to select the largest extractor from the kit that will go deep enough into the hole you drill to get a good bite and still have good strength. Then lightly tap it with a hammer so it will bite into the sensor before you start turning it with a wrench to remove the sensor. You have to be careful not to apply to much torque on the extractor to avoid breaking it. If you break the extractor you are in big trouble.  The extractor is so hard that a drill bit won't touch it. The good news is, assuming it is a tapered pipe thread, once you turn it about 1/2-3/4 turn it should spin the rest of the way out easily. Good luck.

 

I bought these would these work?

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Matt88RegalCustom said:

I bought these would these work?

Well, they look like they have the correct shape.

[Matt88RegalCustom]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Well, they look like they have the correct shape.

Fair just making sure 

[Matt88RegalCustom]

5 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Well, they look like they have the correct shape.

So which one would I exactly use you said it looks like a 1/8 so would I just use the one that best fits inside it?

[Matt88RegalCustom]

20 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Well, they look like they have the correct shape.

I just want to make sure I do it right is all

[Matt88RegalCustom]

I did get the one of my old engine block off and that’s the thread size up close

[Matt88RegalCustom]

On 5/12/2024 at 8:16 AM, Larry Schramm said:

Take another picture of the remains and lets see where you are.  I still believe that some heat and a correct size of vice-grip would be the answer to your problem unless the remains are broken off at the block.

 

[Matt88RegalCustom]

On 5/12/2024 at 9:04 AM, TAKerry said:

May be over simplified but have you hit the fitting with PB blaster. That will loosen rusted bolts. I feel your frustration as a novice mechanic at best I have been in your situation too many times to think about. But you just need to persevere and eventually the right combination of tricks and tools will prevail. Its ok to punt. Take a break for a couple of days, then hit it again with a fresh idea. I still think with the correct vice grip and pb blaster soaking for a few days you should be able to break it loose. 

OR/

Do you have a socket that will beat onto that fitting tightly? Maybe do that with a long breaker bar. You may never get the part out of the socket but if it works a worthwhile sacrifice. Thats how I got a set of lug nut locks off without the key.

Yeah I already dosed it with PB blaster before and tried hammering socket bits on with little success now. I’m glad you understand me it’s hard and irritating for me how easily I could have avoided situations like this

[Ronnie]

54 minutes ago, Matt88RegalCustom said:

So which one would I exactly use you said it looks like a 1/8 so would I just use the one that best fits inside it?

In a previous post I gave a good general overview of how to use an easy out. Go back and read that first, then if you need detailed, step-by-step instructions for using an easy out I suggest you find a good Youtube video that shows exactly what needs to be done. A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm a machinist but I don't think I can lead you through the process of selecting and using an easy out to remove that remaining piece of the sensor without being there to see what you have to work with. 

[Larry Schramm]

Do you have an acetylene torch?  I still think that if you put some heat on the block to the right of your most recent picture and carefully try to work the remains back and forth you will be able to get it out.  It is the old ball and ring trick from about 4th grade science.

 

Did you say where you are located?

[ABear]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

In a previous post I gave a good general overview of how to use an easy out.

A better tool to remove that is a internal pipe nipple extractor, much beefier and less prone to breaking off than an easy out. Easy outs break very easily and when they break, not so easy to drill out since they are hardened.

 

I bought a set at HF, has saved my bacon more than once.

 

There are some variations of this style of extractor also and since they are typically used to extract pipe nipples you may need to try various sizes for best fit and bite.

 

If all else fails, heating with a torch a few times might prove to be a good tool also.

[Matt88RegalCustom]

Yeah so my friend was helping me with the extractor and we were going slowly and carefully but still snapped and I know from here I’m basically screwed but I did have a question on if a mechanic shop can fix that for me

[Matt88RegalCustom]

1 hour ago, ABear said:

A better tool to remove that is a internal pipe nipple extractor, much beefier and less prone to breaking off than an easy out. Easy outs break very easily and when they break, not so easy to drill out since they are hardened.

 

I bought a set at HF, has saved my bacon more than once.

 

There are some variations of this style of extractor also and since they are typically used to extract pipe nipples you may need to try various sizes for best fit and bite.

 

If all else fails, heating with a torch a few times might prove to be a good tool also.

Great thank you this is what I was looking for since the regular extractor decided to snap even while being gentle I bet this would work I happened to just read this after it decided to snap

Edited May 14 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history)

[ABear]

Your welcome!

 

Got that idea from a buddy that buys and fixes old Hit and miss engines, runs into a lot of stuck rusted broken off pipes..

 

I have broken a few of the easy outs, drilling them out is not fun or speedy and sometimes takes a couple of drill bits if it broke off flush.

 

Something else to consider, depending on the material, if steel, you can try welding a nut onto the top of the piece. That gives a new surface to grab with a socket and the welding provides some heat which can often loosen stuck threaded items..

 

Would have to be steel for best results and not pot metal (zinc) or aluminum, pot metal doesn't weld, it just melts to a useless puddle and aluminum could be welded if you have an  aluminum nut and aluminum filler..

[Larry Schramm]

You might need to take the engine to a shop that does EDM machining to see what they can do since you broke the easy out.

 

Read here.   https://www.mmsonline.com/topics/edm

[Matt88RegalCustom]

15 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

You might need to take the engine to a shop that does EDM machining to see what they can do since you broke the easy out.

 

Read here.   https://www.mmsonline.com/topics/edm

Yeah that’s what I’m gonna do I can get the car running with out that anyway but I need that fixed

[Matt88RegalCustom]

I was able to hammer a ratchet bit on yesterday and it worked for like half a rotation then stopped so it’s not rusted inside 

[Ronnie]

14 minutes ago, Matt88RegalCustom said:

I was able to hammer a ratchet bit on yesterday and it worked for like half a rotation then stopped so it’s not rusted inside 

Work it back and forth while spraying it with penetrating oil. Don't force it as long as you can keep it moving.

[Matt88RegalCustom]

So I thankfully was able to get it off which I’m very much happy about but now im asking if anyone knows what each plug goes for on the and wiring mess I know some of them but would there be anyone that could label them for me so I can hook all of them up correctly and also for the positive and negative hook ups because there’s multiple I don’t want to mix them up I know some going starter and alternator

[Matt88RegalCustom]

[Matt88RegalCustom]

Edited May 19 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history)

[Matt88RegalCustom]

That’s all of them

[Matt88RegalCustom]

Would anyone be able to do that for me please it would really help me out

[pfloro]

Some or many of the connectors that need reconnecting are part of the CCC (Computer Command Control) engine management system (light green "weather-pack accordian booties). GM began using this system in 1981 for all it's passenger car lines.  Compared to today's systems, it was primitive.  However, when set up correctly, it worked quite well and was reliable. 

 

You are going to need both the Buick 1984 Chassis & Electrical Service Manuals.

These will help you learn about the inputs & outputs of this system.  Although  certain components were shared between car lines, engines, etc., the CCC harness is unique to your model year & engine.

 

The connectors look crusty which is never good for any computer system.  Resistance, opens, or shorts in the wiring/connections will throw the ECM (Electronic Control Module) into a tailspin.  In 1984, the built in diagnostics were primitive but can be of help.

 

Your best bet would to be find a 1984 GM "A" body car In a bone yard with your V6 and an intact ECM harness.  To a decent degree, you would then be able to trace things out.  BTW:  the "eyelet" connectors are CCC system grounds.

 

I do speak from personnel experience here.  I owned my 1984 Toronado for 28 years/200,000 miles, studied the manuals cover to cover, and serviced the CCC system myself.  This car had the 307V8/4bbl and the CCC system was a bit different than my mom's '84 Cutlass with the 231V6.  

 

For your sake, I wish your delima was simple but alas, it's not.

 

Paul

 

 

Edited May 20 by pfloro (see edit history)

[Matt88RegalCustom]

3 minutes ago, pfloro said:

Many of the connectors that need reconnecting are part of the CCC (Computer Command Control) engine management system.  GM began using this system in 1981 for all it's passenger car lines.  Compared to today's systems, it was primitive.  However, when set up correctly, it worked quite well and was reliable. 

 

You are going to need both the Buick 1984 Chassis & Electrical Service Manuals.

These will help you learn about the inputs & outputs of this system.  Although  certain components were shared between car lines, engines, etc., the CCC harness is unique to your model year & engine.

 

The connectors look crusty which is never good for any computer system.  Resistance, opens, or shorts in the wiring/connections will throw the ECM (Electronic Control Module) into a tailspin.  In 1984, the build in diagnostics were primitive but can be of help.

 

Your best bet would to be finding a 1984 GM "A" body car In a bone yard with your V6 and an intact ECM harness.  To a decent degree, you would then be able to trace things out.  BTW:  the "eyelet" connectors are CCC system grounds.

 

I do speak from personnel experience here.  I owned my 1984 Toronado for 28 years/200,000 miles, studied the manuals cover to cover, and serviced the CCC system myself.  This car had the 307V8/4bbl and the CCC system was a bit different than my mom's '84 Cutlass with the 231V6.  

 

For your sake, I wish your delima was simple but alas, it's not.

 

Paul

 

 

Yeah I figured this is was the direction it was gonna lead which ones are the “eyelet” connectors and where would they go because I have 2 grounds right behind the engine inside the engine bay that are connected

[Matt88RegalCustom]

9 minutes ago, pfloro said:

Some or many of the connectors that need reconnecting are part of the CCC (Computer Command Control) engine management system (light green "weather-pack accordian booties). GM began using this system in 1981 for all it's passenger car lines.  Compared to today's systems, it was primitive.  However, when set up correctly, it worked quite well and was reliable. 

 

You are going to need both the Buick 1984 Chassis & Electrical Service Manuals.

These will help you learn about the inputs & outputs of this system.  Although  certain components were shared between car lines, engines, etc., the CCC harness is unique to your model year & engine.

 

The connectors look crusty which is never good for any computer system.  Resistance, opens, or shorts in the wiring/connections will throw the ECM (Electronic Control Module) into a tailspin.  In 1984, the built in diagnostics were primitive but can be of help.

 

Your best bet would to be find a 1984 GM "A" body car In a bone yard with your V6 and an intact ECM harness.  To a decent degree, you would then be able to trace things out.  BTW:  the "eyelet" connectors are CCC system grounds.

 

I do speak from personnel experience here.  I owned my 1984 Toronado for 28 years/200,000 miles, studied the manuals cover to cover, and serviced the CCC system myself.  This car had the 307V8/4bbl and the CCC system was a bit different than my mom's '84 Cutlass with the 231V6.  

 

For your sake, I wish your delima was simple but alas, it's not.

 

Paul

 

 

Also it’s probably because I switched engines from my original to a replacement of the same coming from a cutlass I think so which probably makes sense but I do have the old intake manifold and other parts of the engine that probably can fit right on and connect everything 

[Matt88RegalCustom]

I’m not to sure though it came out of a Buick Regal of the exact same year 

[Ronnie]

The wiring looks like an electrician's nightmare. Without a proper wiring diagram I don't see how you will get it figured out.

[pfloro]

5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

The wiring looks like an electrician's nightmare. Without a proper wiring diagram I don't see how you will get it figured out.

That's why the 1984 Electrical Service Manual (original paper printing) will be of great help.  The diagrams are in color, show all the inputs & outputs, and wire color/sizes.  The section I speak of is specifically for the CCC system. Of course, this manual has diagrams for all the other electrical systems (starting, charging, lighting, etc).

 

It is an invaluable resource. 

 

Paul

Edited May 20 by pfloro (see edit history)

[Matt88RegalCustom]

36 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

The wiring looks like an electrician's nightmare. Without a proper wiring diagram I don't see how you will get it figured out.

True unfortunately I know where some of them go but my main concern is which ones hook up to the starter if anyone knows that

[Matt88RegalCustom]

18 minutes ago, pfloro said:

That's why the 1984 Electrical Service Manual (original paper printing) will be of great help.  The diagrams are in color, show all the inputs & outputs, and wire color/sizes.  The section is speak of is specifically for the CCC system. Of course, this manual has diagrams for all the other electrical systems (starting, charging, lighting, etc).

 

It is an invaluable resource. 

 

Paul

Alright I might have to pick one up then but do you honestly know which ones go on the starter that’s honestly just where I’m stuck the most

[pfloro]

6 hours ago, Matt88RegalCustom said:

I’m not to sure though it came out of a Buick Regal of the exact same year

Several CCC components & their connections will be common across multiple car lines with that engine in the early CCC years.  The Rochester carb. (2 or 4 bbl) has 2 connections (the 2 pin blue connector on the top is for the MCS (Mixture Control Soleniod)).  This solenoid is driven by an O/P voltage from the ECM which controls the idle & part throttle air/fuel mixture.  The 3 pin connector on the left front of the carb is the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor).  This sensor provides an I/P signal informing the ECM how far the throttle is opened.  The distributor has a 4 pin connector which is used for the EST (Electronic Spark Timing).  These distributors do not use mechanical or vacuum methods to control the timing advance.  The ECM handles it all (...and quite effectively).  The intake manifold has a 2 pin Coolant Temperature Sensor.  This is NOT the sensor which triggers the "HOT" dash light or engine temperature gauge.  Of course there is the 1 pin oxygen sensor which sits in the end of one of the exhaust manifolds.  Your engine most likely has the A.I.R. (Air Injection Reaction) system (aka: air/smog pump).  There are 2 - 2 pin ECM connectors which direct & switch the air to either the exhaust manifolds or catalytic converter.  There is also the 3 pin MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor which is mounted on one of the plastic fender liners. It has a rubber vacuum hose connected somewhere on the intake manifold.  This sensor provides information to the ECM about engine load.

 

In the CCC harness near the carb connectors, you will see a single spade connector with a bright green cover.  I can see it in one of your pictures.  This is a CCC diagnostic test point.  It is connected to a dwell meter (6 cylinder scale) and allows you to trim the idle mixture while actually seeing the CCC system work.  I was blown away when I first used this diagnostic.  Those GM engineers were pretty smart. 

 

FYI:  The basic air/fuel metering method which GM used in this "primitive" CCC system is still used today in all fuel injected (port & direct) engines.  It's called PWM (Pulse Width Modulation)...!

 

As best as possible, carefully clean both the male & female sides of the sensors & connectors.  I'm sure small brass brushes are available for thus purpose.  You want clean, tight, "0" resistance connections...

 

Paul

 

Edited May 20 by pfloro (see edit history)

[pfloro]

4 hours ago, Matt88RegalCustom said:

do you honestly know which ones go on the starter that’s honestly just where I’m stuck the most

Not knowing your specific model, I'll do my best here.  Based upon what side of the engine the starter is located, (driver's side for this model...???), the connections will be grouped on that side. The largest diameter (positive/red) cable from the battery connects to the large starter stud (it has a big eyelet).  There will be a couple of somewhat smaller "cables" also with eyelets ganged on that same starter stud.  There are called "fusible links".  The calibrated size wire (fuse wire) inside the plastic jacket is designed to melt in case of over-current. These fusible links and the big red battery cable may be wrapped together.  At least one of these "smaller" wires will find it's way to the alternator o/p stud.  Another will route into the "bulkhead" connector on the firewall near the booster/master cylinder.  FYI:  The bulkhead connector (1 or 2) is the way engine room wiring is passed into the passenger compartment (behind the dash). Back to the starter wiring: there will be a small wire (pink or purple ??) which connects to the small stud on the starter. This connects the starter soleniod to the "start" position on the ignition switch.  When you turn the key to start, 12 volts energizes the starter soleniod. Internally, the soleniod moves the starter drive into the ring gear and at the same time, connects the battery cable to the high current starter windings.  

 

IMO, what I've detailed above is pretty universal for all GM cars of this period. 

 

The Electrical Service Manual will show this in great detail.

 

Paul

Edited May 20 by pfloro (see edit history)

[Matt88RegalCustom]

16 hours ago, pfloro said:

Not knowing your specific model, I'll do my best here.  Based upon what side of the engine the starter is located, (driver's side for this model...???), the connections will be grouped on that side. The largest diameter (positive/red) cable from the battery connects to the large starter stud (it has a big eyelet).  There will be a couple of somewhat smaller "cables" also with eyelets ganged on that same starter stud.  There are called "fusible links".  The calibrated size wire (fuse wire) inside the plastic jacket is designed to melt in case of over-current. These fusible links and the big red battery cable may be wrapped together.  At least one of these "smaller" wires will find it's way to the alternator o/p stud.  Another will route into the "bulkhead" connector on the firewall near the booster/master cylinder.  FYI:  The bulkhead connector (1 or 2) is the way engine room wiring is passed into the passenger compartment (behind the dash). Back to the starter wiring: there will be a small wire (pink or purple ??) which connects to the small stud on the starter. This connects the starter soleniod to the "start" position on the ignition switch.  When you turn the key to start, 12 volts energizes the starter soleniod. Internally, the soleniod moves the starter drive into the ring gear and at the same time, connects the battery cable to the high current starter windings.  

 

IMO, what I've detailed above is pretty universal for all GM cars of this period. 

 

The Electrical Service Manual will show this in great detail.

 

Paul

I can give you the specific model and year of my car 1984 Buick Regal Base Coupe If I’m correct, the starter is located on the passenger side, I also got a chunk of the wires in I backtracked from when I took them all off and I’m currently left with I think 4-5 connectors excluding the air/Smog Pump wires and I think the exhaust manifold connectors and multiple positive and negative leads which is where I’m currently troubled at and this other ground me and my buddy took off but forgot where it hooked to which I sent a picture of and another 4 prong connector which I have connected right I just need to know where it’s mounted so have a idea I took a picture next to where I believe it goes from when I last took it off but still unsure, I also took a picture of what connectors are remaining and I a picture of the remaining positive or negative grounds that I still can’t find the exact location to

 

Edited May 21 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history)