1927 Buick 27-27

[Slawnski]

I’ll paint the outer drums tonight or tomorrow in chassis black. 
 

[wayne sheldon]

Years ago, I salvaged a bunch of wheel bolts from several different wheels in bad condition. I needed good bolts to use restoring several wheels I needed for my cars I was working on. Something I discovered, was that the head sizes were not all the same. Even from a few Buick wheels I had gotten, the head sizes varied slightly. When I was restoring the wheels I needed, I grouped the bolts by head size and shape. People don't notice that small variation unless the bolts are right next to each other. In other words, go ahead and use the new bolts if you want to. You yourself might know which wheel got the smaller or larger head bolts. But almost nobody else will ever see it. (Maybe me if I ever got close to the finished car, I have the sort of "eye" that catches minor discrepancies?) The Buick factory themselves probably had bolt heads varying from month to month, maybe even day to day. Often a simple matter of one production run to another.

 

As to the color of your rims? (Minor detail? "rim" is the preferred word as opposed to "ring".) My opinion is that they generally should not be body color. Many automakers in the mid 1920s and later painted wheels the body color, however, very few painted the rims body color. Rims were often plated, sometimes cadmium, often zinc, sometimes tin, usually with a silvery look to them. If they didn't have a silvery look to them, they were probably painted black. 

"Wheels" were part of the car. "Rims" were a utilitarian mechanical part that often needed to be replaced when having a tire repaired.

 

For whatever it is worth, my 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan, the wheels were originally black, the rims were silvery and probably zinc plated.

[nsbrassnut]

If your penetrating epoxy is similar to the one that I have used then it will go fairly far.

 

The one that I use has the consistency of water when mixed. Its designed to soak in and additional coats added while still wet as it soaks in. That way it gets down into the dry wood and also will fill some of the open grain near the surface. Keep an eye on it as it soaks in and have a bit extra on hand to keep adding a bit more wherever the epoxy soaks in deep. A Dixie cup of epoxy may be all that is needed to coat one wheel.

 

Also be prepared to let it sit for a while. The one that I use takes days to fully set up hard enough that you can sand it without it clogging up the paper like cheddar cheese. I have to plan on letting the wood sit for a week before trying to sand it.

 

I think its great stuff and I use it both to seal and strengthen old wood and as a sealer on new wood. But it doesn't fill any rough grain, scratches or chips and will leave the surface finish the same as it started. If you want to smooth the grain to get a better finish be prepared for some more surface preparation. In my case I have used regular marine epoxy (West system) that is a bit thicker brushed on to help fill the surface grain, then sand that smooth. And if you are really after a smooth wood finish, then spray with high build primer and sand it to a better finish. In a few more extreme cases I even mixed up a small cup of high build primer with hardner and no reducer. Then with an artist brush paint it like putty on marks and chips in the wood. You can add multiple layers to problem spots then sand it after it hardens. I found it work as good body filler on wood and is much much easier to use and to sand to a good finish.

 

The epoxy provides the sealer and anchor. The high build provides an easy to sand and smoother surface preparation.

 

Then start with the automotive primer and top coat.

 

You may not want to go this far down the rabbit hole. But for me it did provide a very good finish if you want go that far.

[Slawnski]

Good point as far as sorting bolts by head size- I’ll defiantly do that.
 

Looks like I’m in for a long slow process! 
 

I pulled the masking from the spokes and hit the drums with finish paint. I’ll pack these away tomorrow and start sanding in preparation for epoxy. 
 

I’m going to leave these clear/ wood. Might paint a spear down each spoke- we’ll see. 
 

Edited August 4 by Slawnski
Photo change (see edit history)

[JohnS25]

I’m not sure if you have this information or not, it was very helpful to me when I replaced the tires on my 26 Buick. I really like following your progress. Keep up the good work.

John

 

 

[Slawnski]

1 hour ago, JohnS25 said:

I’m not sure if you have this information or not, it was very helpful to me when I replaced the tires on my 26 Buick. I really like following your progress. Keep up the good work.

John

 

 

Thanks John. I have the tool. Never saw instructions for its use in print before. I’ve seen a video or 2 and fuddled my way through removing the tires. I’m pretty sure I’m going to tear up the pain on the rims when I reinstall the tubes and tires- if you have any tips I’d love to hear them. 

[Slawnski]

The Buick really kicked my butt today. I got 1 wheel’s spokes sanded and possibly ready for epoxy along with 6 spokes on wheel number 2. 
 

There is no shortcut- there are no power tools to help in a way that doesn’t do more damage than good. It’s all by hand- strips of sandpaper taking the existing finish off. I was pretty lax when I sandblasted the wood. I guess I could have gone a little further but at the time I didn’t want to do any damage. 

and oh yeah- I guess I missed priming this hub- seriously didn’t catch it until I saw myself scuffing the primmer on the second wheels hub and looked up to see why I didn’t notice that on the first wheel… 

 

Next up- more sanding! 

 

Edited August 5 by Slawnski
Photo order (see edit history)

[Slawnski]

Second wheel 1/2 sanded. 

[dibarlaw]

 Jim:

 Notice that I have not done my front wheels yet.

 

After doing the (4) 21" wheels on my 1925 Standard,

 Since these were just temporary for my Standard I only striped the felloe. My striping bottle on the top of the hub.

Then doing the (4) correct 22" wheels I will replace them with,

and the 2 rear wheels on my Master. My fingers needed a rest! Also, they took me a week of concentrated effort to strip/scrape/prime/paint and stripe those 2 wheels. I made up a series of special scrapers including pieces of glass to get into the spokes and drum. It does a much better job than sanding. I made up a sheet metal template for the spear form that I was able to clip it to the spoke and keep it centered. I had to make another to fit the radius of the front wheel hub.

 As noted previously some rims were Zinc plated as my 1925s are. The 1927 rims were specified as being black.

Also at this time it is prudent to check for loose spokes.

[wayne sheldon]

Beautiful work on those wheels Larry D!

 

One of my longtime best friends most of his working life consulted and did restoration work for private collectors of brass and nickel era automobiles. He did some of the most beautiful wooden spoke wheels I have ever seen! He hated working on those, but a few collectors were willing to pay enough that he would suck it up and do them.

He could take an average old restoration and detail it up to where it really popped! Quite a few cars he worked on were later shown at Pebble Beach. He often commented that he wished he could find someone willing to learn to do wheels right and he could teach them the way to make them look incredible. He said someone could make a good living for many years because a lot of people wanted beautiful wheels on their cars, but nobody wanted to do them. A few people began to try, but after a couple sets of wheels they wanted nothing more to do with the idea.

[Slawnski]

Hats off and a hugh amount of respect to anybody who has taken on the cleaning and restoration of a set of wood wheels. I can't believe it’s so freaking hard.
 

Dibarlaw your wheels look incredible! I am consistently amazed and impressed  with the quality of your workmanship. 

 

My left arm is killing me tonight- between rotating and holding each wheel in the cabinet when sandblasting- all the sanding really took its toll- but I only have 2-1/2 more to go. 

[nsbrassnut]

Here is an example of what can happen when you go overboard.

 

Repaired and refinished wheels with original 100+ year old wood. One day I tried to estimate the hours in each wheel. I think I came up with around 40 hours plus per wheel.😉

[Slawnski]

1 hour ago, nsbrassnut said:

Here is an example of what can happen when you go overboard.

 

Repaired and refinished wheels with original 100+ year old wood. One day I tried to estimate the hours in each wheel. I think I came up with around 40 hours plus per wheel.😉

I never would have guessed starting this project that the wheels would take so long- beautiful work nsbrassnut! How to the white tires hold up? 

Edited August 5 by Slawnski
Spelling (see edit history)

[JohnS25]

On 8/3/2024 at 10:59 PM, Slawnski said:

Thanks John. I have the tool. Never saw instructions for its use in print before. I’ve seen a video or 2 and fuddled my way through removing the tires. I’m pretty sure I’m going to tear up the pain on the rims when I reinstall the tubes and tires- if you have any tips I’d love to hear them. 

sorry 

I don’t have any good advice for you on not damaging the paint. My wheels aren’t fresh. 
I was thinking about masking tape, and some thin Teflon strips between the tool and the rim. Or finishing the paint job after the tires are installed. 
Good luck, and keep up the good work 

 

John

 

oh ya 

the tires need the flap installed to help from pinching the tube 

 

I put the old ones back in, but new ones are still available 

 

my car still had Fisk red tubes. 
I bought some used tires and new tubes to make it a roller  

   
 

[Slawnski]

Where is the flap available from? Looks like that one goes all the way around. Mine are 8-10” pieces. 

[Slawnski]

Quick night tonight. Very hot out. I sandblasted one more rim. 3 more to go for this car. I have a few more from the parts car pile. I’ll probably sandblast them and epoxy prime them. 
 

The latches on these two rims have a yellow base paint that is very tenacious- like a latex paint I guess- the sand wasn’t really completely removing it I’ll pick at this prior to primer. 

[Slawnski]

Any other options for rim flaps? 
 

[JohnS25]

That’s what you need. You might look at some of the model A dealers for a better price. But that’s what I bought when I put new tires on my Hudson. The good news is you only need to buy them once. 
Also if you don’t already know it, it is good practice to use some talcum powder or something similar to sprinkle inside the tire before inserting the tube and I do it again before inserting the flap. It helps things from sticking together and bunching up or pinching the tube.

Good luck 

John

[Slawnski]

So let’s talk about tires for a moment. These are the tires on the car now, all old, each not so rubbery- I’m looking to bite the bullet on tires, flaps, and tubes. My initial thought was to run with the tires I have until the car is ready to drive- at which point I’d buy new tires. I might still do this and buy new flaps and tubes to get the car rolling. The trouble with this is the abuse the rim takes putting a tire on it. Coker is the one supplier I’ve found for the tires- any others? I don’t see any tires that have all the nomenclature on them similar to the ones that came with the car. 

I can try cleaning and conditioning these tires for the time being. Just preparing for a tire purchase and would like to have options. Thanks for any input you might offer

 

[JFranklin]

Those tires look good to me. Use them until you are ready to go for a long drive.

[JohnS25]

2 hours ago, JFranklin said:

Those tires look good to me. Use them until you are ready to go for a long drive.

I agree 

I’m not sure that is the correct size for your car, but I would mount them up if that’s all I had and wasn’t ready to drop the cash for a new set. 

[nsbrassnut]

For Slawnski.

 

The picture of the white tires is from when I finished my '05 Cadillac back in 2014. The tires were purchased a couple years before and put away in storage until needed. They were of that period when the problems with early dis-coloration of white tires started to occur.  After some discussions on another forum the problem appears to have been tracked down to an incompatibility between the more recent white tire rubber recipes and certain brands of inner tubes and their rubber recipe.

 

In my case that was a definite confirmation. A set of new metal stem tubes was purchased with the tires. When I installed them one of the tubes had a defective stem to rubber connection and leaked. I pulled a different brand new tube from my spares and installed it. Within weeks that one tire started to turn brown while the other tires remained white. Now at about 10 years old and still only about 1000 miles the tires show the difference. Three are still mostly white with some discoloration while the third turned mostly light brown.

 

Now some of the tire suppliers will insist on the use of specific brands of tubes to reduce the chances of early discoloration. And if they do I would recommend following their suggestion.

 

The set that I have still appear to be soft and sound and I'd rather drive the car than be concerned about showing it so I'm in no rush to change the tires. Especially with the cost these days.

[Slawnski]

One more rim sandblasted tonight.  I sanded the back of spokes on the 3rd wheel. 1-1/2 wheels to sand. I’ll most likely hit them all one more time as I’m seeing spots that don’t look quite right yet. 

[Slawnski]

7 hours ago, JohnS25 said:

I agree 

I’m not sure that is the correct size for your car, but I would mount them up if that’s all I had and wasn’t ready to drop the cash for a new set. 

These are the tires that were on the car when I bought it. Correct size or not I’m pretty sure they are going back on at least in the interim. I’ll clean them inside and out as best I can before I mount them  I’ll get new tires before I take it on the road.  I’d rather wait and pay more for a better tire later than buy new- economy tires  now and regret it when the time comes to stretch its legs on the road  

[dibarlaw]

I had my rims powder coated. The tougher finish holds up better when mounting the new tires.

[JFranklin]

Your old tires look very decent and are nylon cord so they aren't subject to cord rot. I don't see any sidewall cracks either. Someone with a late Model T or early Model A Ford would love to get them.

[EmTee]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:24 PM, Slawnski said:

Any other options for rim flaps? 

Cut a set from the old tubes?

[wayne sheldon]

The need for tire/rim flaps is for several reasons. To reduce the likelihood of pinching the tubes during assembly is one reason, and going all the way around is helpful there. To prevent chafing of the inner tube (which can eventually lead to a flat) is another reason. Both of those reasonings basically need the flap to go all the way around.

However, there is another reason for needing flaps that does not require the flap to be more than about a foot in length. Believe it or not, and this I have seen a few times with my own eyes, is that area near the valve stem where the rim ends meet? Believe it or not, that small gap allows enough air circulation to reach inside and affect the tube's condition. It allows dust, and wind-borne chemicals, ozone, to sneak in and contaminate the rubber of the inner tube. Inner tubes without some protection in that short spot can and often do fail over time (maybe only a couple years?) just from the contamination that creeps in. A short stub of liner can be the difference between tube failure in four years, or forty years!

Back in the depression days, if a blowout destroyed a liner? A common "fix" was rather than buying another liner, salvage a piece of the ruined liner and run with it. Back in the days, the old chemistry red inner tubes could fail in less than a year without protection across that small gap.

Years ago, I took several very old tubes out of very old tires. Many of the tubes were in very nice condition everywhere but across that slit where they had long since failed and caused the tire to go flat. Tires with flaps in them sometimes still had low pressure still holding the tire in shape.

 

Those "rubberized cloth" flaps are the BEST! If they are full length? Keep them! Use them in your tires, or display them as curiosities. But keep them, or give them to someone that would truly appreciate them. Nothing in the way of tire flaps made today are nearly as good. Even in shorter pieces, I would still keep them. Maybe I go crazy someday and end-butt glue them back together? My 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan still has a few of those inside its tires.

[nsbrassnut]

Another suggestion why the short partial liners may have been popular. When it covers the split in the split rim, then it should cover the spot most likely to chafe and lead to leaks. The hole for the valve stem keeps the liner section in place and prevents it from walking around the wheel. A partial liner can be helpful, but might also make balancing the wheel  a bit more challenging also.

 

Back then it may have been the difference between a $1 full liner and a $0.25 partial liner. And many were on a tight budget at the time.

[Slawnski]

One more rim sandblasted. A new powder coat place opened in town. I’ll stop out there tomorrow and price powder coating the rims. 

One more rim to sandblast 1-1/2 more wheels to sand. 
 

 

[Slawnski]

Stopped at the powder coating place in town. They are adding on/ expanding and the gentleman I needed to talk to was somewhere on-site but unavailable.  I’m waiting for a call back. 
 

Ordered 5 tubes and flaps. 
 

Hopefully wheels get sanded over the next couple nights and epoxy sealed over the weekend. 

[dibarlaw]

Boy that sounds like the place that did my bumper. But they are a much larger concern. They do storage racks and construction equipment. There was another place that the fellow was handing out business cards for his shop. I called many times and he had dissapeared.

[Slawnski]

1 hour ago, dibarlaw said:

Boy that sounds like the place that did my bumper. But they are a much larger concern. They do storage racks and construction equipment. There was another place that the fellow was handing out business cards for his shop. I called many times and he had dissapeared.

I also have option 2 that is across the industrial park at work but they are backlogged. Or rather they were the last time I stopped by- I’m going to check with them too. 

[Slawnski]

I have 5 rims ready for paint or powder coat. I started sandblasting the “spare” rim tonight as well. 
 

1-1/2 wheels worth of spokes left to sand - I should be epoxy sealing spokes this weekend! 

[Slawnski]

Dropped 5 rims off at powdercoater. 2 weeks turnaround time…. Hoping it’s less than that. I’ll need them to get the chassis rolling again. 
 

More sanding on spokes tonight. 

[dibarlaw]

When I had my front bumper powdercoated they indicated a 2 week turnaround. It ended up being more like 7 weeks. I had started to call to inquire after 4 weeks.

 

 

[Slawnski]

51 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

When I had my front bumper powdercoated they indicated a 2 week turnaround. It ended up being more like 7 weeks. I had started to call to inquire after 4 weeks.

 

 

 

Kind of what I’m afraid of. There are still things to do - but getting the chassis onto its wheels would be very nice. I can sandblast and paint the spare tire carrier and the whole fuel tank situation will eat up some time. Hoping it’s closer to 2 weeks than 7. We’ll see

[Slawnski]

Final sanding and epoxy this morning. 
 

8 oz of epoxy is what it took- one round on each side of each wheel. By the time I finished wheel number 4 the epoxy had soaked in enough for a second coat on the fist wheel. After second coat it was back to wheel 1 for spotting where epoxy had soaked in. I gave it about another 15 minutes and I was able to rehang them, wiped the slobbers on the metal with xylene and now we wait…

Alot of variation in the wood- which is expected and one wheel has 3 spokes that took a hit ( 2nd photo) not sure if I’ll add a second coat tomorrow ( after light sanding) we’ll see how it goes. 
 

[GARY F]

I like the natural wood finish.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I also love the look. Just give them a good sanding and then clear. Mike