1926 Buick Standard ignition timing

[Gino Roth]

A few months ago my engine began to misfire very badly and I traced the cause to a worn out bushing for the distributor shaft that I knew was bad when I got the car.  The run out on the shaft was terrible and I was able to wiggle it back and forth enough so that the points could open and close with the action.  I was planning to convert the distributor over to a Pertronix electronic ignition anyway to get rid of the points.  After doing this the car ran much better but it still misfired on occasion.  At this point, I also noticed that the distributor body had developed a crack down one side but stoped before it was anywhere near the bushing hole.  Still, I took this as a sign that the distributor needed more than just a bushing so I had a shop make up a new housing with an Oilite bushing ( Pic of the new Distributor is below - its beautiful).  The problem is now I can't get the engine to fire at all.  I am following the ignition timing procedure given in the 1926 Standard shop manual.  I have pulled all the spark plugs out and cleaned/gaped them, turned the flywheel so that the "ADV 17"  lined up with the registration marks on the bell housing and then set the distributor on full advance with the rotor right under #1.  After putting the plugs back in and retarding the distributor, it just cranks but won't fire.  I know it was on the compression stroke while setting the flywheel because I used a whistle in the #1 plug hole and I have verified that I had good spark and fuel.  I have also reset everything several times and tried to retard and advance the distributor thinking that I might be close to correct timing but nothing works.  Here are some pictures showing my flywheel position and position of the cam lobe on the Pertronix pickup module.  I know that this is a modified distributor but it ran before so it should run now for sure.  Is my flywheel position correct and does anyone have any other suggestions for me?

[1937 Buick 66C]

Hello Gino,

 

I have two cars with Pertronix (1937 Buick and 1969 Porsche), so I'll take a guess at some things to look at.

 

• Are you very confident that the distributor and rotor are turning with the engine?  I've had a distributor that was not fully seated, so it wasn't fully engaging its drive gear.  I've also had a rotor that was slipping on the distributor shaft (bad fit on aftermarket part) that was not actually turning once the cap was installed. 
• When I look at your second-to-last image showing the Pertronix pick-up and rotor, I am not seeing the "sender" that fits over the cam in the distributor to trigger the Pertronix.  On both of my cars, the Pertronix "sender" fits over the lobes of the distributor cam where the original points rubbing block touched the distributor cam.  On my cars, the top of the Pertronix sender is approximately level with the Pertronix pick up, as the sender has to fit over the cam lobes to get "indexed" to the position of the engine.
• Since you are having no spark at all, I'd be inclined to retrofit the new distributor with mechanical points, if possible.  Mechanical points give you more options for diagnosing your ignition, and will also tell you if your Pertronix unit or your coil has failed.
• Can you rotate the distributor while cranking the engine to see if you can find a point where the engine fires?  My 1937 Buick (straight 8 ) static times at around 10 degrees, so 17 seems like a lot of advance.  In any case, you should get some response from the engine

Hopefully these suggestions will lead you to a solution.  Let me know what you eventually find...

Edited December 15, 2023 by 1937 Buick 66C
Proofread (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

1 hour ago, 1937 Buick 66C said:

Hello Gino,

 

I have two cars with Pertronix (1937 Buick and 1969 Porsche), so I'll take a guess at some things to look at.

 

• Are you very confident that the distributor and rotor are turning with the engine?  I've had a distributor that was not fully seated, so it wasn't fully engaging its drive gear.  I've also had a rotor that was slipping on the distributor shaft (bad fit on aftermarket part) that was not actually turning once the cap was installed. 
• When I look at your second-to-last image showing the Pertronix pick-up and rotor, I am not seeing the "sender" that fits over the cam in the distributor to trigger the Pertronix.  On both of my cars, the Pertronix "sender" fits over the lobes of the distributor cam where the original points rubbing block touched the distributor cam.  On my cars, the top of the Pertronix sender is approximately level with the Pertronix pick up, as the sender has to fit over the cam lobes to get "indexed" to the position of the engine.
• Since you are having no spark at all, I'd be inclined to retrofit the new distributor with mechanical points, if possible.  Mechanical points give you more options for diagnosing your ignition, and will also tell you if your Pertronix unit or your coil has failed.
• Can you rotate the distributor while cranking the engine to see if you can find a point where the engine fires?  My 1937 Buick (straight 8 ) static times at around 10 degrees, so 17 seems like a lot of advance.  In any case, you should get some response from the engine

Hopefully these suggestions will lead you to a solution.  Let me know what you eventually find...

It's not 17 advance. It's Buicks goofy way of setting the timing with the points on TOP of the cam lobe.

If you pull the coil wire out of the distributor and hold it 1/4 inch from a grounded metal and have someone crank the engine you should get a nice spark. Then you know for sure whether you have spark or not.  If you have spark there, look to timing or whatever, 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Oldtech (see edit history)

[Gino Roth]

Thanks old Oldtech,

I am sure that the distributor is properly seated in the generator housing as the advance plate does seat where it is supposed to and the distributor is able to turn with the advanced rod. I also know there is spark because I have used  a spark tester I ahead of the spark plug and it is lighting up. The Pertronix unit I am using is a newer version that senses  the cam lobe rather than using a reluctor wheel over the cam so that problem is ruled out. Thanks for clearing up that mystery of why the fly wheel marking is stamped 17° advance. That was very confusing to me, but now I have more confidence in what to do next. I think you have the next logical step for me to take, and that is my timing is still not correct and that I should try to retard the timing in small increments to see if I can get this to fire properly. At one point yesterday it did run for a few seconds very slowly until it backfired through the carbs and stopped. As you know It’s not easy setting the timing on these old machines since they use a foot starter and it’s not possible to use a remote hand held one.  

[Oldtech]

If you can ascertain the exact firing point of the pertronix, set the engine to the UDC mark on the flywheel and with the spark lever RETARDED set the distributor to where it should just fire if turned any more. Easy with points, not sure with Pertronix. 

[tonybuick]

can you put a timing light on no 1 and turn it over by hand and when the light flashes mark it on flywheel with chalk and then see where it is firing the plug-in relation to the udc mark the problem is you usually set no 1 to udc and adjust dis so points just open but you cant see the point opening 

have you checked its not firing on exhurst stroke

[edinmass]

Please post a photo of the generator/distributor and drive shaft drive for the water pump. It's possible a non authentic pump shaft can get everything out of whack.......delt with a similar situation on a 22 Buick just last month. It was quite the challenge to get the car in time. Also, many early cars had flywheels that were NOT indexed to the crank....thus ALL the markings on the flywheel will mean nothing. Watch your intake valve on number one to find top dead center......then set the timing on the distributor. It was the only way we could get our cars timing right. Also every car since 1905 has a crankshaft keyway that is at zero degrees when it's on TDC......if you can see the front of the crank.

[Gino Roth]

IGNITION TIMING UPDATE:  Have been troubleshooting this all morning with retarding the timing a little more after finding that advancing the timing during start up did nothing.  Retarding the timing more did nothing either.  I put my spark indicator back on #1 and saw it light up just once.  I turned off the ignition and waited a few minutes and then tried to restart again and it lit up one more time only.  Now I began to suspect that my coil (which is new) has an intermittent problem so I swapped it out with another known good coil.  Now I am seeing multiple spark firings and the engine seems to want to start but I have the timing fowled up again.  Going to reset the timing as per the shop manual but not today.  Going to leave town shortly for the Christmas holiday and be somewhere warmer.  Will get back on this in January.

[tonybuick]

they made a nice job when they made the disturber looks good 

[Buick Downunder]

I posted a step by step guide to setting the timing for my 1925 several years ago - whereby you follow the book to the letter, apart from advancing not retarding on the steering wheel (I think) - due to changes in Petrol quality. You don’t need a timing light and best to adjust by ear and short trial until you get it spot on. I used it again recently when my old car followed me back home and I had to remember how to do it again!  

Edited December 27, 2023 by Buick Downunder (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

I use a timing light on my 1923 and 1911 Buicks and have for decades. Far easier than the manual method written back when few people owned a timing light.  I can also check the timing very easily at any time I wish in a matter of minutes. Most importantly I can check things once snugged down.  I found that my timing was moving a few degrees with the final tightening. 
 

You can use a modern 12v timing light on your 6V car.  Just power it by a 12v source. I use the 12v lawn tractor pulled up next to the Buick. 

[IFDPete]

Brian - 

 

Are you flashing the timing gun on the flywheel at the top viewing hole or have you made a more convenient mark on the engine somewhere else?  What mark are you using as your standard?  Have you posted a thread on your timing procedure that we can read through?  Thanks - Pete

[Brian_Heil]

I use the top hole. Yes, I have to pull 3 floor boards. 
 

For 1923 the factory timing mark is 7 degrees after TDC with the lever fully retarded. 
 

I make/made a new mark 7 degrees before TDC with the lever fully retarded. Just copy the distance. 
 

This results in 14 degrees more advanced base timing from factory which with octane twice what it was in 1923 the engine has no trouble with for 45,000 miles of touring to date. 
 

While you have the light hooked up, rev the engine and confirm your distributor centrifugal weights advance the timing and return it to the base mark. The weights can get gummed up or the little springs on them  come off.  This will confirm neither has happened. 
 

Somewhere on this forum I have posted this procedure more than once. 

[Brian_Heil]

Another timing tip

 

Once you have the engine timed where you want it and have confirmed everything, take the cap off and while looking at the flywheel mark, bring things up to TDC and with a sharpie, mark on the rim of the distributor housing where the center of the rotor is.  Quick and dirty way to check things on the side of the road in order to get home on a tour when you have no timing light and you are wondering if things are still in time. 

[Brian_Heil]

Works on a mag housing too. 

[Brian_Heil]

But I do not recommend advancing your timing to this extent on a brass Buick. 
 

1). When you get the brass car set up, you will enjoy hand cranking it a quarter turn and watching it start warm.  So will your friends who’s cars are not up to snuff.  Sorry old chap perhaps you can catch up to us at the ice cream stop?
 

2). Hand cranking needs to be done with fully retarded spark after TDC so you don’t break your wrist. 
 

3). My 1923 Buick crankshaft is a beast.  My 1911 Buick crankshaft looks frail compared to it.  Lugging is what breaks an early crank. That and too much new found power with new pistons and new timing and changes in compression.  Unless you are running some aftermarket crank in your brass Buick keep the power stock. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)