Rochester 4GC accelerator pump ball check is stuck (55 Packard 400)

[human-potato_hybrid]

I can't get the ball out of the bottom of the accelerator pump well. Already tried compressed air from behind. Is there anything else I can try to remove it without having to drill from behind it and patch with JB weld?

[Frank DuVal]

Soak it more. Should be stuck from old fuel. Not stuck from deformed metal. If deformed metal, then drill may be only option. Hopefully Carb King will tell us his experience with these, if metal deformation is ever an issue.

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

Edited December 6, 2023 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[carbking]

(1) Totally disassemble the bowl removal parts (jets, power valve, etc.)

(2) Acquire an ELECTRIC toaster large enough to contain the bowl plus a shallow pan with ridges on all four sides. *

(3) Place the bowl upside down on the pan

(4) Insert the pan with bowl in the ELECTRIC toaster oven. *

(5) Bake at 350 degrees F for about 5 minutes

(6) Remove the pan and the bowl

(7) Look for the check ball in the pan

(8) If the check ball has not yet fallen out, hold the bowl upside down (wear good leather gloves, the bowl is hot), and strike the bowl at the pump cylinder from underneath (strike upward) with a plastic hammer.

 

If no positiveresults repeat.

 

The above has worked for me maybe 95 percent of the time.

 

If the above does NOT work, method number 2 always will, but is a pain in a certain anatomy part, plus being messy.

 

(1) Locate the pump cylinder fill hole in the floor of the bowl.

(2) Fabricate a bracket to hold a tube that the lower end will fit inside the hole and the upper end with the bracket may be secured to the bowl using 3 (or more) of the threaded airhorn screw holes.

(3) Tap the top of the tube to hold a grease zert, install the grease zert in the top of the tube.

(4) IMPORTANT! Locate the plug covering the access for originally drilling the hole from the bowl fill to the bottom of the pump well. This plug will be located on the underside of the bowl, and generally was a lead ball driven into the bowl.

(5) Fabicate wooden "jaws" for your vise, and position the bowl in the vise such that one of the wooden jaws applies pressure to the plug.

(6) Use a grease gun, and apply grease to the grease zert. While messy, this method is much safer than using air pressure. When the pressure of the grease reaches the ball, and it will; the ball will dislodge and stick to the grease. It will not fly up and strike you in the eye like using compressed air can do.

(7) Remove the bracket, and save for the next carb you do

(8) Clean up the grease, and you may proceed with the rebuilt (hope you bought your rebuilding kit from me  )

 

* Don't even think about considering the possibility of using a gas-fired oven!!!!!

 

Jon

[carbking]

Just read the rest of your post.

 

If you opt to ignore either of my methods, and drill from the bottom as you suggested. IF YOU VALUE YOUR CAR DO NOT USE JB WELD TO PATCH! tap the hole for a small machine screw, and install the machine screw with a fiber washer.

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

@carbking Why not a gas oven? Concerns of gas left in the carb lighting on fire?

 

@Frank DuVal what should I soak it in?

[carbking]

Yes on the fire, and don't soak it in anything if you are going to use the toaster oven.

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

@carbking Think I may as well soak it first as before I only sprayed it down with carb cleaner but it didn't seem to do a very good job of getting the residue off. 🤔

 

No problem if I need to let it air out after soaking because I have all winter.

[old car fan]

Listen  to jon,he knows what works. 

[Frank DuVal]

I originally meant carburetor cleaner, but not if you are going to toast it. 😉  If you have access to an ultrasonic cleaner you could start with that, use Simple Green or any detergent. Flush with a lot of water afterward and dry with compressed air. Using detergent  shouldn't be an issue later using the toaster oven. Unless Jon states otherwise, then I would go with his recommendation. 😃 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

[PFitz]

If you use a toaster oven, don't let the wife know. Even if it does not leave any trace of a stink, it will so forever in her mind, and you'll never hear the end of it. 

 

Been there.

She loved her toasted English muffin with tea every morning. I thought the backlash was bad when I did a valve job on a cylinder head on the coffee table while watching TV, ...or using her bottle brushes while washing an engine block in the bathtub. Nope it was the toaster oven parts cooking that I never heard the end of. 🙄

 

Paul

Edited December 7, 2023 by PFitz (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

i like to boil in water ,less chance of heat distortion,and it frees up hard deposits,common practice with vintage snowmobile carbs too,once clean and if check ball dosnt come out you could epoxy a stiff wire to the ball.....just a tiny drop of epoxy........but do it with carb upside down so epoxy dosnt go down around the ball......the epoxy can be cleaned off the ball later if it pulls it out

[human-potato_hybrid]

Everyone thanks for the help, @arcticbuicks I think I will start with boiling it since I can do that easiest. @PFitz Fortunately I am unmarried but also have never bought a toaster oven... so would have to find one to borrow. If boiling does not work then I'll try the oven method.

[carbking]

The toaster oven is for baking carburetors ONLY; no brownies!

 

Watch the local garage sales.

 

Jon

[Frank DuVal]

4 hours ago, human-potato_hybrid said:

so would have to find one to borrow.

Well, more low cost options are to buy one at a thrift store or see if a neighbor has an old one to give away.

 

I've heard they are also good for powder coating small parts.

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

[Rusty_OToole]

15 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

i like to boil in water ,less chance of heat distortion,and it frees up hard deposits,common practice with vintage snowmobile carbs too,once clean and if check ball dosnt come out you could epoxy a stiff wire to the ball.....just a tiny drop of epoxy........but do it with carb upside down so epoxy dosnt go down around the ball......the epoxy can be cleaned off the ball later if it pulls it out

This is too obvious but a $3 thrift store or yard sale crock pot is just the thing for "cooking" small parts.

[human-potato_hybrid]

On 12/6/2023 at 2:14 PM, carbking said:

hope you bought your rebuilding kit from me

Unfortunately no, I bought it from Chicago Carb 🙁

 

I will definitely get my next one from you though, I'm going to rebuild my other 55 carb also. Need to figure out which it is as it's either off a 55 Nash 320 engine, or a 55 Hudson 320.

[carbking]

If it is from either a Nash or Hudson, it will be a Carter, not a Rochester.

 

Look for a triangular brass tag under one of the airhorn to bowl screws (you might get lucky!).

 

If no tag, remove the dust cover up on the top, and read the number on either of the metering rods, and call with that number. 573-392-7378 (9-12, 1-4 Mon-Tues central time).

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

Thanks! It's a Carter and I do have the tag. If you don't see this by Monday I'll give you a ring. 😃

 

I also will check on what carb is already used on my Packard, it has a 352 engine in it now, but I recall it also being a Carter. Will need double check this weekend as I think the Packard carb gave more HP than the Nash carb on the same 320 motor. So I might want to rebuild that one instead if it's not in worse shape.

 

Per your site the Nash or Hudson carb should be a Carter WGD 2231 but the Packard carb (same engine and year) is a Carter WCFB 2284 or 2232. That being said the carb that is supposed to be on that 352 engine is a Rochester 4GC so I need to double check.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[carbking]

If you recheck the listings, you will find the pictured carb was used on both Hudson and Nash.

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

Ok so I have another dumb question for this thread. I got the carb off my old engine. Its a Carter WCFB so probably I will want to go with that. The problem is that even after removing the 4 mounting nuts it is firmly stuuuuuuck to the intake. I have the intake off but how do I get the carb off? Aside from soaking the whole thing in cold water I don't have a big enough space to soak the whole intake 🤔

Edited December 11, 2023 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[human-potato_hybrid]

picture

[Oldtech]

Well first you gotta take that pipe to the choke off. 😁The gasket is likely glued on so will rip apart careful pry1ng on solid points with TWO bars. 

[carbking]

Take the choke tube loose from the manifold FIRST!

 

I used to keep a couple of dull pocket knives for the purpose of removing glued pieces. A blade can be inserted between the manifold and carb on opposite sides to get a foothold for the bars mentioned by Oldtech.

 

(Dad used to say my pocket knives were dull for a different reason  )

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

@Oldtech and @carbking good eye on the choke tube. Actually I did have it disconnected earlier when yankin' on the carb and only reconnected it for transport so it would get less bent if something were to hit it.

 

I have about 50 pocketknives from some shrewd trading back in my Boy Scout days and I'm sure the majority are dull, so I'll give that a shot.

[human-potato_hybrid]

Still have not been able to get the WCFB to budge so I decided to just take the air horn off for inspection. Lot of sediment in the bowls but note the upper left: I brushed some away and I think it looks fine underneath. 
 

Only history I know on the car is it traded hands in 1990 and was last registered in 1994. The engine is not original but the swapped engine should have had a different carb, so this may well be the original carb. 93k miles on the car. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

Did you remove the 4  flange nuts and soak with PB blaster or something. May be corroded around the studs.

[human-potato_hybrid]

@Oldtech it seems the gasket is this gluey rubber compound instead of the usual gasket material. I have heard to try and get in there with razor blades to split the material. Most other blades are too thick. What a PITA.

 

P.S. Even if I didn't want to use this carb I'd still need to get it off the intake.

[carbking]

If there is room to do so, double nut the studs, and remove them. This will reduce some of the resistance to the carb coming off.

 

Jon.

[human-potato_hybrid]

Ok, finally got back around to this and thankfully it didn't take long. Here's my thoughts on what works, or not:

• Don't bother with pocketknives or box cutters (even the hook style ones), they are too thick to do much; the only way to use them effectively would be to hammer them in (see below).
• Shaving razor blades seem to help to pry it apart if you hammer them in a bit, but they shatter after around 10 moderate hits so have a few and wear safety googles.
• What finally did it was just whacking in between the carb and intake with a flat bladed metal chisel (smallest shown here). The force deflects the gasket out of the way and helps expand it also, but you can't do it all in one place. I tapped it in enough to get a few decent metal-on-metal-on-metal whacks, changing locations about 20 times (mostly the corners) before there was noticeable progress, and I broke about 5 razor blades in the previous step first.

Food for thought when eyeing that next barn find that has sat for 30 years, but it's not too bad knowing what I know now. Could pull an identical one in probably half an hour now, knowing these steps.

 

Still need to take a brass brush and clean off the detritus but that should be able to happen in short order.

 

[human-potato_hybrid]

Rest of the carb looks good. Will be buying a rebuild kit from Jon on Monday. 

[human-potato_hybrid]

No dice so far getting the ball unstuck by boiling the other carb body (yes I disassembled first) or by smacking it around. Will have to try the grease method next. 

[human-potato_hybrid]

I got the ball unstuck using the grease method, though I found a slightly more preferable way. Instead of installing a grease fitting, I happened to have a round punch that fit snugly into the bore, so I just placed some grease in and shoved in the punch by hand. Repeat a few times and I got the ball out.

 

Of course, now I need to find a way to effectively get rid of the grease. I’ll try carb cleaner tomorrow and see how well that works. Might have to get creative. 
 

Not sure why the ball was so stuck. You can see the residue on what was the underside of it and this was after multiple lengthy soaks of carb cleaner sprayed into the pump bore. But who knows if the “last guy” even bothered to get it unstuck properly as the accelerator pump was set unusually high, resting above the gap in the pump bore and bowl, which likely allowed it to work even with a stuck ball.

 

The engine starts with just 1 prime and I never drive it too hard, so I may not have noticed if the accelerator pump was not at peak performance. 

Edited February 25 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

Some brake kleen should take care of the grease

[human-potato_hybrid]

Got the other carb (the one stuck to the manifold) disassembled. Now to see if I remember how to put it back together by the time the rebuild kit arrives! 😂

[human-potato_hybrid]

Ok, I got the second carb (the one stuck to the manifold) put back together today. In the kit there seemed to be 2 jets that were the wrong size and it's a 4 jet carb. No new jets for the 4 I used (typical for carb kits). I'm wondering what those might be used for. 🤔 

[carbking]

If you got one of our kits, there would have been two PRIMARY jets in the kit that would have been the size specified by the manufacturer.

 

We do not include secondary jets in our kit, as they are rarely needed, and would just increase the price of the kit. We do have them available.

 

If the kit came from elsewhere, I cannot comment.

 

Something that occasionally causes some folks concern is the relative size of the jets. With Carter 4-barrels, the smaller diameter jets will be the secondary jets, even though the secondary throttle bores are often larger than the primary. The primary jets have the metering rods going through the jet, thus must be larger.

 

This is different from Holley and Rochester, where the secondary jets are generally larger than the primary, as the secondary throttle bores are generally larger than the primary.

 

One other comment about jets:

 

NEVER believe a number stamped on a jet! Folks have been drilling jets since 5 nanoseconds after the first carburetor with jets was delivered. MEASURE!

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

20 hours ago, carbking said:

If you got one of our kits, there would have been two PRIMARY jets in the kit that would have been the size specified by the manufacturer.

Thanks. Sorry, I wasn't clear. It's your kit #526. Today at work I will check the bore sizes on all the jets. They looked a bit different (old vs new primary) but could be an optical illusion or they were installed wrong to begin with. I should clarify that the new ones looked bigger.

 

I'll check and reply with what the dimensions are.

Edited March 21 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[carbking]

We have neither wings nor halos (we do make mistakes).

 

What should be in CS-526 are a pair of 120-163 primary jets, which should measure 0.098 inch. They will not be stamped.

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, we would occasionally see the primary and secondary jets on a Carter switched, as the secondary throttle bores are often larger than the primaries. The "rebuilder" didn't consider the metering rods. This was not a chronic problem, but probably have seen a couple of dozen "rebuilt" in this manner. Of course, when the engine transitions from the idle circuit to the main circuit, it flat falls on its face!

 

The secondary jets are MUCH smaller. As the kit is used on a couple of different carbs, cannot tell you the exact size of the secondary jet unless you wrote down the carb identification number, but the secondaries are in the 0.052~0.056 inch range.

 

Jon

[human-potato_hybrid]

@carbking my mistake, they are the correct primaries. Just an optical illusion!

 

My old 120 168 jets measure 98 thou exactly as well as the new.

 

The secondaries are 120 218 and measure about 51 thou. A #55 drill bit just barely can't pass, but a #56 can.

Edited March 21 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[carbking]

No problem, glad you able to get the measurements.

 

Any time there is seemingly an issue with one of our kits, we want to know. We may not agree  but if we made a mistake in filling a kit, we wish to fix it.

 

Just for the record, the "issues" for we get the most correspondence are the Rochester throttle body gaskets with the cut-outs. These cause so much confusion, we ended up posting the documentation from Rochester on our website.

 

Jon