Duesenberg

[alsancle]

All the dumb threads I start and I never got around to this???     We need a thread on the greatest prewar American car and arguably the greatest American can ever.     Anybody that has ever driven a sorted Model J gets religion.    We can include Model A (and the 4 X cars and one Y car) in this thread too.   I have a friend that owns two Model J's and one Model A.  I tell him he has 2.5 Duesenbergs.   Model A guys please don't kill me.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Duesenbergs are identified by their "J" number which unfortunately is stamped in the bell housing which often got swapped to another car over the years.

 

Here is one of my favorites, even in its current horrible color.   J365.

[alsancle]

J496 with Brunn Torpedo body.  Unfortunately wrecked.

 

There were no production Duesenberg bodies.  All were coachbuilt although many were done in series.  For example,  Murphy built a bunch of convertible sedans which I believe was the most inexpensive model you could buy at around 12k.   Bare chassis was 8500.    A complete custom V16 Caddy would run you about 2k less.

[alsancle]

Incredibly handsome guy standing in front of a Murphy disappearing top convertible coupe.  These came in two varieties,  with the disappearing top and non disappearing top.  The premium for the deck lid is around 100% these days.

 

With the top up there is no way to tell.  At least I can't.

[58L-Y8]

A.J.:

Duesenberg J's get discussed so often, we all just assumed there was an individual thread for them.  Thanks for correcting this oversight.

We got to enjoy this briefly at Hershey this year...between the showers...

Steve

[alsancle]

49 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

A.J.:

Duesenberg J's get discussed so often, we all just assumed there was an individual thread for them.  Thanks for correcting this oversight.

We got to enjoy this briefly at Hershey this year...between the showers...

Steve

 

The JN series is the ultimate Duesenberg in my mind.  It has the drop center wheels, drop sill bodies with super low windshield, down draft carburation, and the improved steering box.  There is no cowl band to interrupt the hood line.

 

Also, the later cars got the swept needle instruments which were a huge improvement over the barrel ones.

 

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

A.J.:

Duesenberg J's get discussed so often, we all just assumed there was an individual thread for them.  Thanks for correcting this oversight.

We got to enjoy this briefly at Hershey this year...between the showers...

Steve

 

This car was parked right next to me at Hershey and I was struck by how small it is. Duesenbergs are known for being massive and having 140+ wheelbases, but this one appeared smaller than my 136-inch Lincoln. And yes, it was lovely.

[alsancle]

15 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This car was parked right next to me at Hershey and I was struck by how small it is. Duesenbergs are known for being massive and having 140+ wheelbases, but this one appeared smaller than my 136-inch Lincoln. And yes, it was lovely.

Matt, the car has 142 inch wheelbase. The long wheelbase cars are 153.  What is massive is the length of the hood.

[58L-Y8]

Gentlemen:

Sized by comparison to the 1934 Nash Ambassador Eight Brougham Model 1297 which also has a 142" wheelbase, the SJN didn't look as large as it is.  In fact, both cars are nearly identical length, their bumpers aligned.   Body/chassis proportioning was significantly different, as A.J. notes, approximately 55% of the Duesenberg is taken up through the A-pillar, while the Nash was perhaps 33%.   The latter does deserve the "Kenosha Duesenberg" monicker, it is one imposing, impressive automobile. 

Steve

[alsancle]

42 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Gentlemen:

Sized by comparison to the 1934 Nash Ambassador Eight Brougham Model 1297 which also has a 142" wheelbase, the SJN didn't look as large as it is.  In fact, both cars are nearly identical length, their bumpers aligned.   Body/chassis proportioning was significantly different, as A.J. notes, approximately 55% of the Duesenberg is taken up through the A-pillar, while the Nash was perhaps 33%.   The latter does deserve the "Kenosha Duesenberg" monicker, it is one imposing, impressive automobile. 

Steve

 

Steve, to date I have not found any hood on an American car (or any car for that matter) as long as the Model J Duesenberg.   Anything 6' or longer is big and the Duesenberg is much longer than that.

[alsancle]

Check that,  I forgot about my Stutz.

 

 

[Tph479]

My buddy Jim owned the tapertail for a while back in the 1960’s. He purchased it off a local estate for $20,000. He put down $4,000 and the estate held paper and financed the balance. He told me he had a lot of sleepless nights owing that much money on a car since the car cost a lot more than his brand new house did a few years earlier. The 20k was a huge sum of money back in the day for a collector car.

 

Jim said a bunch of people were lined up waiting to buy that car from the estate and they couldn’t believe a young punk could come with that kind of scratch to buy it, not knowing the deal that he worked out with the estate. Luckily as time went on he found some sucker to buy the car for $40,000 in cash, was able to pay off the estate and go back to having good night sleeps…. “ I thought I won the lottery selling that car!”

 

Also a cool Delage in the background.

[West Peterson]

1 hour ago, Tph479 said:

My buddy Jim owned the tapertail for a while back in the 1960’s. He purchased it off a local estate for $20,000. He put down $4,000 and the estate held paper and financed the balance. He told me he had a lot of sleepless nights owing that much money on a car since the car cost a lot more than his brand new house did a few years earlier. The 20k was a huge sum of money back in the day for a collector car.

 

Jim said a bunch of people were lined up waiting to buy that car from the estate and they couldn’t believe a young punk could come with that kind of scratch to buy it, not knowing the deal that he worked out with the estate. Luckily as time went on he found some sucker to buy the car for $40,000 in cash, was able to pay off the estate and go back to having good night sleeps…. “ I thought I won the lottery selling that car!”

 

Also a cool Delage in the background.

 

I'd vote this one to be the ultimate Duesenberg.

[edinmass]

17 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

I'd vote this one to be the ultimate Duesenberg.

I sure wish I was the sucker who paid 40k. It’s a 25+ car today……that’s M 

[Shootey]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:24 PM, alsancle said:

Steve, to date I have not found any hood on an American car (or any car for that matter) as long as the Model J Duesenberg.   Anything 6' or longer is big and the Duesenberg is much longer than that.

How would a 1936 Buick Century compare? Maybe it was too contemporary for a side-by-side comparison. 

[alsancle]

31 minutes ago, Shootey said:

How would a 1936 Buick Century compare? Maybe it was too contemporary for a side-by-side comparison. 

My guess is that the Duesenberg is at least 12 inches longer.

[West Peterson]

Longer than an Individual Custom Packard from 1934? Or your 1935 Packard 12? How long is the '35 Packard 12 hood?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, West Peterson said:

Longer than an Individual Custom Packard from 1934? Or your 1935 Packard 12? How long is the '35 Packard 12 hood?

 

Much longer than all of the above.   The 35 Packard 12 and my Stearns are both 72" if I recall correctly.  I believe my Royale is 74" with the setback body.

The Dietrich is not as long as you think,  although the V on the sides gives the impression of length.  Even along the sides the Duesenberg is longer.

[alsancle]

George sent these to me of the Gurney Nutting Speedster.   AKA Maharajah Duesenberg.   I actually paid a fortune for a period print of the top up picture years ago.   Interesting to me because my dad always liked to brag that he beat it the first time it was shown at an ACD show back in 1963.

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Interesting as I think the hoods on 500, 540K MB present longer. Must be an illusion combined with that long, low look.  

[alsancle]

7 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Interesting as I think the hoods on 500, 540K MB present longer. Must be an illusion combined with that long, low look.  

If I’m remembering correctly around 68 inches, but a setback radiator car will look like 73.

[alsancle]

J189 now and 30 years ago with me working on it.   Anybody insinuating that I staged that photo probably knows me well.

 

 

[alsancle]

Couple of photos of an SJ engine with the manifolds being fit.  All the blown cars have the later "rams horn" manifolds but I believe most of the original 36 supercharged cars had the cross over pipes going in to a downdraft manifold.   I'll try to find a picture of one.   Obviously the rams horn looks better.   The only cars that I know of that got the dual carb blower are the two SSJ cars and the Mormon Meteor.   J292 got what was supposed to be the back up engine from the Mormon Meteor sometime in the late 30s down in Argentina.   That is pictured last.

[edinmass]

 

Unfortunately about 99 percent of my Duesenberg photos can't be posted......here are a few that can.

[Tph479]

Back in my youth, there was a local collector that had the Murphy disappearing top Convertible coupe with the two rear spare tires. I always thought that car was stunning. The joke is that  it went into Roxas’ shop for a brake job and a couple of hundred grand later came out a show dog and won a bunch of awards . It is black on black with blackwall tires. Most cars done at that time still had the circus wagon motif and this car looked sinister in black. 

[BobinVirginia]

If I’m lucky, I might see one on  a road!! Lol

Edited October 27, 2023 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

9 hours ago, Tph479 said:

Back in my youth, there was a local collector that had the Murphy disappearing top Convertible coupe with the two rear spare tires. I always thought that car was stunning. The joke is that  it went into Roxas’ shop for a brake job and a couple of hundred grand later came out a show dog and won a bunch of awards . It is black on black with blackwall tires. Most cars done at that time still had the circus wagon motif and this car looked sinister in black. 

 

Did I hear correctly that this car now runs with dual sidemounts instead of the rear-mounted spares?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, West Peterson said:

 

Did I hear correctly that this car now runs with dual sidemounts instead of the rear-mounted spares?

 

I think it was converted to sidemounts and then converted back again.  What I can't remember is how many were built that way.  It is a tiny number, like 1, 2, or 3.

 

Hopefully the right person sees this and calls to straighten me out 😀.

 

[alsancle]

This is J292 which I mentioned earlier during its racing years in Argentina.   It was a LeGrande swept panel dual cowl, chopped for racing and then restored by my Uncle Ted back to its original configuration in the 1970s.

[alsancle]

This is J547 Rollston sport sedan that was sold for cheap out of the Tupelo Automobile Museum Auction back in 2019. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Everybody knows about the famous Mercedes Duesenberg match race on Lake Muroc I hope?   Phil Berg's Model J against Harpo Marx's Murphy bodied S Mercedes.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

49 minutes ago, alsancle said:

This is J292 which I mentioned earlier during its racing years in Argentina.   It was a LeGrande swept panel dual cowl, chopped for racing and then restored by my Uncle Ted back to its original configuration in the 1970s.

 

Too bad it got converted back. Pretty cool as is

[Tph479]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

Did I hear correctly that this car now runs with dual sidemounts instead of the rear-mounted spares?

No idea. The car bounced around after it left the area and I haven't seen it since in person. It would be a shame if it was converted to sidemounts. The rear spare gave it a distinctive look from the other duesys. Seeing the car without the rear spares would be like seeing Tom Selleck without a mustache.  

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I find this postwar update interesting, AJ I believe has noted it has since been returned to the original configuration.  Not unlike the racer,  the period mods are cool.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Another postwar shot in the wild..

[alsancle]

33 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

I find this postwar update interesting, AJ I believe has noted it has since been returned to the original configuration.  Not unlike the racer,  the period mods are cool.

 

Sold at the Guyton auction all the updates were simple bolted on.   Here it is with the updates taken off.  A Murphy convertible sedan, the most prolific body style on the J chassis.  Also the cheapest.

 

 

[West Peterson]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

Everybody knows about the famous Mercedes Duesenberg match race on Lake Muroc I hope?   Phil Berg's Model J against Harpo Marx's Murphy bodied S Mercedes.

 

Still curious and confused, though, as the car in the bottom photo is clearly not the car that raced the Mercedes.

[Packard enthus.]

DUESENBURG value?

It's the summer of '55.   Fellow CCCA member is trying to pedal a car for a friend.  Knows my family has money.   Comes over to the house with it.  Early "J" that would be lucky to get 80 points these days.   I salivated.  But my dad wouldn't even come down from watching Uncle Miltie to look at it.  Afer all...five hundred bucks for a well-worn used car that needed tires.....?  I was furious with my dad for not seeing the value....refusing to loan me the money.  After all...as I told my dad...."YOU HAVE NO VISION....THAT CAR WILL EVENTUALLY BE WORTH FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS"......

 

(so now you know the truth......all I could afford in my high school years was a twenty five dollar car (earned that twenty five bucks mowing lawns).   That twenty five dollar car...?  Yup...it not only needed tires...needed a battery...my parents thought I was nuts for buying it., especially since it was using oil too....!

 

In the mid 1960's...solved the oil problem....Pulled the motor at Charlie Last's place....went thru it.....no more oil problem ........

 

What happened to that twenty five dollar car?    Well.. after going to high school in it...used it to go to UCLA...then law school...got married in it...here's a photo of it and my wife on our honey-moon (early '67).    

 

Yup...i keep it 'cause I like it...(used it the other day to go to the grocery store)   (used it last summer for a CCCA tour in the Rockies.....)   do I wish I had a Duesenburg....(I know the later Dusies are good cars...best proof of that is the later ones have the same Stromberg EE-3 as my car....)....but "beggars can't be choosers".....

[alsancle]

9 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

Still curious and confused, though, as the car in the bottom photo is clearly not the car that raced the Mercedes.

Good point. I never paid attention but the muroc car was a barrel side. Now I’ll need to go figure this out and post more information.

[58L-Y8]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

Good point. I never paid attention but the muroc car was a barrel side. Now I’ll need to go figure this out and post more information.

A.J.:

Looks like Gary Cooper's Derham Tourster.  Did he get the bright idea at some point to remove the fenders and race it?

Steve