Locomobile wheels, rims, tires and related issues

[Ittenbacher Frank]

With this topic I like to exchange some experience and knowledge related to the wooden wheels, split rims and tires used on the Locomobile models 38 and 48.

To begin with: I thought my cars are equipped with Firestone rims, but yesterday I had a flat tire, and during repair I cleaned the rim and found some words stamped into the rim: Very clearly it is a GOODYEAR rim, size 34-4 1/2, DEMOUNTABLE RIM. But what is written before TYPE A?

 

[edinmass]

George K is the expert on these. It’s a 25 inch rim. Goodyear and Firestone were the two popular brands , unless you had a Pierce. The snap rings and retaining rings are different as are the clamps if memory serves me. I think the Firestone rings have the pin……..I can’t remember.  Type A refers to a single fixed flange or removable two rings and a snap ring…….not sure which is which, working from a poor memory. There are wheel and rim charts with photos that explain it all. Previously posted here somewhere, by George.

Edited June 26, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

In another place is the stamping MANUFACTURED BY HEXC_____NDWEL__NE___GO and then in the next line: __CLEVELAND__.

Next to it, there is a symbol.

Any thoughts about the missing letters?

What do we learn from that?

How old are these rims and did they originally belong to the Locos? The spare parts book shows a rim which consists of 3 pieces: rim, side ring and lock ring. On mine the side ring and lock ring is one piece.

Any suggestion where I can find two of these rims, complete with locking ring?

More about this topic in the next days.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I found the flap quite interesting: seems to be a older than myself...and suggestions when it was made and what material this is?

[George K]

Hi Frank 

I’m not an expert on anything but just an old  scrounger that got tired of buying piles of incorrect rims and parts. Here’s a couple of references. Not a common rim on a Loco or any other vehicles I’ve come across.

[George K]

P.S Your flap looks like canvas no stretch so they need to lap.

[George K]

This looks about right. Somebody has some but where. I will pm you a contact.

[alsfarms]

I have 34x4-1/2 Firestone rims on my early Locomobile. On the rim chart posted by George, what does QDC reference?

Al

[alsfarms]

It is my assumption that the Goodyear rim hardware was much more common during the earlier Brass era automobiles. What is the consensus here?

Al

[George K]

4 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

I have 34x4-1/2 Firestone rims on my early Locomobile. On the rim chart posted by George, what does QDC reference?

Al

Quick Demountable Clincher

[alsfarms]

Hmmmmm, I would have thought clincher was not a thing on heavy car like a Locomobile.

Al

[George K]

11 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hmmmmm, I would have thought clincher was not a thing on heavy car like a Locomobile.

Al

Think again.

[alsfarms]

George, I assume your posted page is likely from a manual printed in the mid to late teens? Of all the Locomobile 38 and 48 I have been around, I have not seen one quipped with clincher tires, have you? As miserable as a clincher tire is to deal with it would be my guess that they could have been retrofitted to a straight side design and likely Firestone, but maybe Goodyear az is the case with Franks Locomobile.

Al

[George K]

The clincher tire sizes became obsolete so they were changed to straight side tires and rims. They were available back in the day as replacements. The tire / rim industry went to a standardized system over time. Demountable (removable side ring) clincher are easy compared to fixed rims.

[alsfarms]

I agree, a removable side ring is way easier to deal with than a solid clincher rim, as in the Model T Ford. However, getting a good bite on the clincher tire of a heavy automobile likely is not so good. If the tire slips on the rim, solid rim or removable side ring, it will pinch the stem off and you are on the side of the road making a repair and likely mumbling some foul words in the meantime.

Al

[George K]

That’s why they all ended up like these. HCCA ad for sale.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:28 AM, George K said:

P.S Your flap looks like canvas no stretch so they need to lap.

Yes, you are right, no rubber. Soft like felt from the tube-side, hard canvas on the rim-side. The tube was pitched at a place where the canvas has a cut.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 6/27/2023 at 3:07 PM, George K said:

Think again.

Alan and George, you are both correct.

Parts list No. 54 (1915) and No. 65 and 68 (1917) show clincher as above, parts list No. 78 (for 48-series 7, app. 1920) shows the new style, see this page:

[George K]

46 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Alan and George, you are both correct.

Parts list No. 54 (1915) and No. 65 and 68 (1917) show clincher as above, parts list No. 78 (for 48-series 7, app. 1920) shows the new style, see this page:

Both are Firestone.

[Layden B]

Q.D.C. means Quick Detachable Clincher.

A detachable rim has a ring to take the tire off the rim.

A demountable rim comes off the wheel with tire inflated. This allows for a 5th rim ( spare) with an inflated tire.

Some wheels are both detachable and demountable.

 

1915 was about the cross-over time that Dunlop ( straight side ) tires became capable of carrying heavier loads than clincher or Fisk types. They were cheaper and easier to use as well. Cadillac is a great indicator of this. Earlier they have clinchers, then they have "universal" rims that can take either clincher or straight sides (by reversing the bead rings), then only straight side tires can be used.

[George K]

56 minutes ago, Layden B said:

Q.D.C. means Quick Detachable Clincher.

A detachable rim has a ring to take the tire off the rim.

A demountable rim comes off the wheel with tire inflated. This allows for a 5th rim ( spare) with an inflated tire.

Some wheels are both detachable and demountable.

 

1915 was about the cross-over time that Dunlop ( straight side ) tires became capable of carrying heavier loads than clincher or Fisk types. They were cheaper and easier to use as well. Cadillac is a great indicator of this. Earlier they have clinchers, then they have "universal" rims that can take either clincher or straight sides (by reversing the bead rings), then only straight side tires can be used.

Thanks for catching my mistake. Must take an old picker to be so kind. One picture worth a thousand words.

[George K]

[ak]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:31 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

With this topic I like to exchange some experience and knowledge related to the wooden wheels, split rims and tires used on the Locomobile models 38 and 48.

To begin with: I thought my cars are equipped with Firestone rims, but yesterday I had a flat tire, and during repair I cleaned the rim and found some words stamped into the rim: Very clearly it is a GOODYEAR rim, size 34-4 1/2, DEMOUNTABLE RIM. But what is written before TYPE A?

 

Write to Layden Butler.  He is the resident expert on rims:

laydenandjean@comcast.net

[Ittenbacher Frank]

9 hours ago, ak said:

Write to Layden Butler.  He is the resident expert on rims:

laydenandjean@comcast.net

Thanks, John! I assume Jaydon has seen this topic already, and the riddle was solved by George firstly: The missing characters of the stamping are:

"MANUFACTURED BY THE CLEVELAND WELDING & MFG.CO CLEVELAND"

Thanks to all!

[Ittenbacher Frank]

By the way, both my cars are equipped with these Goodyear Detachable straight-side rims: All 12 tires are 35x5. All 10 rims (2 for the second spare tires are missing, I am still searching) consist of two pieces only (Rim and lock ring) and look identical from what I can see from outside. Until now I opened only two, but I have to check them all one by one. I don't want to damage more tubes...

And one more interesting observation: The rims obviously fit to both car's wooden wheels, because I found old photos showing the previous owner once had put the tourer's white walls onto the Sedan and vice versa. This must have been in the mid 90s. His friends told me he never did any larger modification on the cars, definitely no work on the wheel rims. The Sedan was bought from the auction in California at the end of 1973, then driven around for a short time, then shipped to Germany. Old photos taken in California show the same rims and Lester-brand tires as is today.

For the touring car which was made in 1916 (model 1917) I have another explanation in my mind: There is an ID-tag on the Westinghouse air suspensions showing a patent date of 1918. When deflated, the cars rides quite low, no space between fender and tire for larger size tires. I assume the suspension was installed in the period between 1919-1922, together with the 35"-wheels. Not much later, because they would have chosen the wider 20" or 21" low-pressure tires available by then. Any suggestins on that? Must leave now, install a new flap and put the spare back in place...

Edited July 1, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

Rebuilding my set of Locomobile 25" Firestone Wheels.

A slow tedious process finally coming together.

 

 

Back to work.

  

[alsfarms]

Hello Steve.

You have a very nice set of 34 x 4-1/2" Firestone Fellow Bands? I hope the and the rest of your wheel irons are in good condition to match this piece. Next, I am impressed with your wheel painting fixture. I am building a four wheel spinning fixture.  What RPM do you spin your wheels to achieve the best painting end results

Al

[rydersclassics]

Hello Al,

 

All of the wheel components cleaned up adequately with a media blast. The wood was right and tight, scraping time on the rear spokes, then high built primer and lots of sanding.

Not concourse though good enough for this enthusiast to roll on.    

 

The wheel spinning fixture is borrowed from a friend. It runs at about 6rpm, just a little fast but manageable.   

 

This thing makes the job so much easier, I'm very thankful !

     

Steve      

[alsfarms]

The wheel spinning fixture I am building is variable speed between 2 and 8 RPM. I will be able to spin 4 wheels at once. That way if I mess up I will get all four wheels! 🙂

Al

[rydersclassics]

With a little paint touch up to do and four more clamps

good for now. 

[alsfarms]

You are certainly lucky to have a set of real clean rim hardware!

Al

 

[rydersclassics]

Thanks Al,

Lot's of hours.