tommyj Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 47 Chrysler Windsor with fluid drive. I hear the click when I let off the gas, and it shifts into high gear. If I remain level, or downhill it will remain in high. If I go to accelerate, even lightly, or put any load on it, like going up an incline, it will disengage from high gear, and revert to 3rd. The shift lever remains in the high range. I can hear when it is going to disengage, and if I let up it will stay in high, unless torque or load is applied. Everything seems to be operating as it should except for this issue in high gear. Fluid drive unit is full. Would something be giving power to the solenoid, to make it disengage from high gear when I step on the accelerator? I know the fluid drive has been discussed to no end, but I haven't run across this particular issue in all my readings. Thanks TommyJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Once you have accelerated in "3rd" does it shift back to "4th"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 I assume you have watched the filmstrips on the M-5 trans. that Chrysler made in 1948. They made two special filmstrips on this subject. If you haven't watched them, here is a link. There are downloadable booklets too. https://mymopar.com/mtsc-1948-volume-a1-checking-the-hydraulically-operated-transmission/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted June 27, 2023 Author Share Posted June 27, 2023 10 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: Once you have accelerated in "3rd" does it shift back to "4th"? It will shift into 4th, but not stay engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted June 27, 2023 Author Share Posted June 27, 2023 6 hours ago, marcapra said: I assume you have watched the filmstrips on the M-5 trans. that Chrysler made in 1948. They made two special filmstrips on this subject. If you haven't watched them, here is a link. There are downloadable booklets too. https://mymopar.com/mtsc-1948-volume-a1-checking-the-hydraulically-operated-transmission/ Thanks for the link. I am going through that again now. Trying to figure out what system is amiss. I was hoping someone had experienced this particular problem before, with their solution. I will keep reading. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 You might post here and ask as this site is about 1930’s to late 1950’s Mopars. https://p15-d24.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted June 27, 2023 Author Share Posted June 27, 2023 23 minutes ago, plymouthcranbrook said: You might post here and ask as this site is about 1930’s to late 1950’s Mopars. https://p15-d24.com/ Copy..Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 If you are in the Low range, does it downshift the same way with light acceleration? I believe you have a wiring problem in the carburetor switch wiring. Downshifting occurs by flooring the accelerator pedal, activating the carburetor switch and grounding out the ignition momentarily, allowing the transmission to downshift. There was an aftermarket switch, when pressed would downshift the transmission at any speed. I think your wiring is shorting out somewhere and forcing a downshift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 Thanks for everyone's help. I have read the articles with the animated mopar tech, but I hadn't seen the video with the real people and the animated mopar tech. That was very helpful, and I will be able to troubleshoot from the information. I will update you on what I find out...Thanks again..Tommyj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 How many miles on this car Does the M-5 transmission look to be the original? You say the Fluid Drive is full...well what about the m-5 transmission? Low oil level and the pump pressure runs too low. You need 40 lbs to keep the direct speed sleeve and blocker ring locked up to the the input shaft to stay in high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, c49er said: How many miles on this car Does the M-5 transmission look to be the original? You say the Fluid Drive is full...well what about the m-5 transmission? Low oil level and the pump pressure runs too low. You need 40 lbs to keep the direct speed sleeve and blocker ring locked up to the the input shaft to stay in high. I bought the car at an estate auction. Mileage is 60,000 on the speedo. Oil change stickers seem to validate the mileage. Transmission level is also good. I am going to check the oil pressure next. The car seems to be an original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 The odometers kinda get wacky and don't work right on some cars. The top plug on the shortbextension housing is the one to remove for checkings trans pump pressure. 40+ pounds is plenty good to go. If it has been banging out of high gear too much the direct speed blocker ring/ sleeve and input shaft teeth get damaged by rounding off. Ifbthat does happen the trans will most always pop out of high gear under load. You say it pops out only light throttle and under a very light load? Be sure none of the trans wiring is bare, clean the governor points with contact cleaner...make sure all connections are tight. There could be a problem at the carb throttle kick down switch. Easy things first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 5 hours ago, c49er said: The odometers kinda get wacky and don't work right on some cars. The top plug on the shortbextension housing is the one to remove for checkings trans pump pressure. 40+ pounds is plenty good to go. If it has been banging out of high gear too much the direct speed blocker ring/ sleeve and input shaft teeth get damaged by rounding off. Ifbthat does happen the trans will most always pop out of high gear under load. You say it pops out only light throttle and under a very light load? Be sure none of the trans wiring is bare, clean the governor points with contact cleaner...make sure all connections are tight. There could be a problem at the carb throttle kick down switch. Easy things first! Copy on the odometer. Yes, it pops out under very light pressure. I almost have to be going down hill for it to stay in high gear. 15 hours ago, 61polara said: If you are in the Low range, does it downshift the same way with light acceleration? I believe you have a wiring problem in the carburetor switch wiring. Downshifting occurs by flooring the accelerator pedal, activating the carburetor switch and grounding out the ignition momentarily, allowing the transmission to downshift. There was an aftermarket switch, when pressed would downshift the transmission at any speed. I think your wiring is shorting out somewhere and forcing a downshift. I am not sure about the downshift in Low range. I will have to check that out. I will double check the wiring. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 Another question..If I disconnect the solenoid what would happen to the shifting? Would I automatically start out in 4th, or would it shift from 3rd to 4th when I let off the gas? I was thinking if I disconnected the solenoid I could see if it remained in 4th, and rule the electric portion in or out? Thoughts? Thanks..TommyJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) Pulling the relay fuse is doing the same as pulling the red wire off the solenoid. So as soon as the car gets rolling the oil pump pressure is up. The shift piston imediately will be ready to shift the trans into high gear of either hi or low range. Let off the gas the upshift happens. You will not be able to get the trans out of high gear unless you come to a dead stop with the clutch pushed in and wait a couple seconds. Edited August 24, 2023 by c49er (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, c49er said: Pulling the relay fuse is doing the same as pulling the red wire off the solenoid. So as soon as the car gets rolling the oil pump pressure is up. The shift piston imediately will be ready to shift the trans into high gear of either hi or low range. Let off the gas thebupshift happens. You will not be able to get the trans out of high gear unless you come to a dead stop with the clutch pushed in and wait a couple seconds. OK..Thanks for the info..Now, I said the tranny fluid level was good. Does it have to be all the way to the bottom of the hole. I checked it with my little finger, and touched fluid at the first bend of my finger. It appears that the capacity is not that much, so maybe it wouldn't take much to have it too low? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 If you can touch the oil the level should be ok. If oil is too low it will not shift up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) I think the 1946-48 M-5 holds 3 pints of 10W. It's probably ok if you can touch it like you said...but the correct thinking is fill it to the bottom of the fill hole. When really too low on fluid going around a corner the trans will drop out of high. Edited July 2, 2023 by c49er (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 Copy on the fluid level..I will work on some other areas for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Please update us when you solve the issue, and what it took to make it do what it's suppose to do. I haven't experienced your problem. But when I first purchased my 48 Windsor, I had all kinds of issues getting the car to shift "appropriately". Besides making sure all connections were clean and tight, I rebuilt and adjusted the carburetor multiple times. I have 3 working EV1 carbs, and I rebuilt them all and I found that by switching carburetors, made a difference on what the transmission did, and when it did it. So that told me that the carburetor has a lot to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 I drove it today with the relay fuse out. I don't think it made a difference, but I did change the way I drove it, which did change the shifting. When I first went out, It shifted into high, and I gently pushed on the gas. It popped out of high like before. The next time when it shifted into high, I gave it some heavy throttle. It stayed in high, but there was a clunking/banging sound. It seemed like it was trying to disengage, but the sleeve didn't move far enough, then it would fully engage again. Like a back and forth movement of the sleeve. Seems like not enough pressure to hold it in high gear completely. I did get up to 55mph before I ended my trip. I think I will fill the tranny all the way up, and see what happens. I guess I need to hook up a pressure gauge and see where I am at. That's all for now..Thanks for the help..TommyJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 Wasn't sure what fluid was in the tranny, so I drained the old fluid out. No shards on the magnetic plug. I refilled with 10W ND oil. Still wouldn't stay in high. 2nd gear is good, and 3rd gear is good. I guess next step is to check oil pressure. Seems like it will either be oil pump, or gears in the tranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) These are the gears I have had to replace on quite a few M5/M6 transmissions because of popping out of high over the years. Input shaft, direct speed blocker ring and sleeve. Oil pump pressure needs to be at 40lbs or higher. These gear parts are really getting hard to find now days. Edited July 9, 2023 by c49er (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 C49er..I am afraid that is the direction I am headed. I think oil pressure will be good, because it clicks into high without issue. I guess it is just the torque that makes it jump out, while second gear works fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 14, 2023 Author Share Posted July 14, 2023 Having a hard time finding an adapter to check the transmission oil pressure. The plug appears to be a 7/16-14 thread size. Very uncommon..Any leads for an adapter to use with my oil pressure gauge? Thanks..TommyJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 (edited) Yes it is a special thread on that upper plug. It is a 7/16" X 14tpi. Odd yes for a fitting. I got one some where years ago. I use thread tape with it as really you need a sealing washer as on the plug. Edited July 16, 2023 by c49er Auto correct spelling problems (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted July 15, 2023 Author Share Posted July 15, 2023 Yes, that there is what I need. Will keep looking. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted August 13, 2023 Author Share Posted August 13, 2023 High speed range, clutch out, foot on brake...what is turning? Is oil pump working? C49er...I sent you a pm., but bottom line is..would you be interested in renting the fitting to check the oil pressure? There just isn't a fitting out there with the correct threads. Without the correct fitting, my next idea is to use my push and hold compression tester to check the oil pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted August 19, 2023 Author Share Posted August 19, 2023 Well, I finally checked the oil pressure and it was 43psi..Looks like teardown time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted August 22, 2023 Author Share Posted August 22, 2023 On 7/9/2023 at 1:41 AM, c49er said: These are the gears I have had to replace on quite a few M5/M6 transmissions because of popping out of high over the years. Input shaft, direct speed blocker ring and sleeve. Oil pump pressure needs to be at 40lbs or higher. These gear parts are really getting hard to find now days. Is the input shaft gear that wears and causes the banging in high range a replaceable gear, or is it part of the input shaft/direct drive gear? I have seen some videos where this gear has many more teeth on it. Not sure which is correct for my 47 Windsor. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 The imput shaft and gear on the end are one piece. 12 teeth count for 1946-48 M-5 transmissions. If it is worn so is the blocker ring and clutch sliding sleeve behind it. You need to look for damaged rounded and worn teeth carefully. Pull the 2 bolt plate at the rear of the transmission and pull out the tube screen filter and see what metal if any is trapped in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted August 22, 2023 Author Share Posted August 22, 2023 1 hour ago, c49er said: The imput shaft and gear on the end are one piece. 12 teeth count for 1946-48 M-5 transmissions. If it is worn so is the blocker ring and clutch sliding sleeve behind it. You need to look for damaged rounded and worn teeth carefully. Pull the 2 bolt plate at the rear of the transmission and pull out the tube screen filter and see what metal if any is trapped in it. Thanks, Copy, Will do.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyj Posted August 24, 2023 Author Share Posted August 24, 2023 On 8/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, c49er said: The imput shaft and gear on the end are one piece. 12 teeth count for 1946-48 M-5 transmissions. If it is worn so is the blocker ring and clutch sliding sleeve behind it. You need to look for damaged rounded and worn teeth carefully. Pull the 2 bolt plate at the rear of the transmission and pull out the tube screen filter and see what metal if any is trapped in it. I pulled the screen, and it was clean. I think this is an old problem, and all the easy stuff has already been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 Time go go inside of the trans I think. I think damaged input shaft blocker ring and sleeve....and or input shaft bearing. But you should hear that in nuetral idling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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