cquisuila Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) hello ! I just changed my voltage regulator and now interior lights, lights... flicker the voltage tension is not regular from 13 V to 14-15 v when i fit first the tension was too high, around 17 v; so i have adjusted the spring in interior regulator what's happening now please ? thanks Edited May 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 Test for a bad diode in the alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted May 25, 2023 Author Share Posted May 25, 2023 it was the regulator i have put another regulator and it is correct now i have to adjust the other new regulator and my alternator is new😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 A new/replacement/rebuilt alternator in todays world could be BAD!!! Do all the tests 1st. to be absolutely sure. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 hello i suspect my regulator in default i don(t understand how it works On the riviera it is different with other models here the 2 diagrams : on pin 4 in my riviera i have a condensator and it is on the ground WHAT's the difference on pin 4 please ?? I FEEL LIKE that on wild cat it is a + and on the riviera a ground or nothing... I feel like my regulator is constantly burning out !! perhaps bad ground ? hot motor ? poor assembly ? I desesperate to drive a day my riviera WITHOUT problem..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 I believe the brown wire connects to the GEN (or ALT) light on the instrument panel. The Riviera uses an ammeter instead of a dashboard indicator light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, EmTee said: I believe the brown wire connects to the GEN (or ALT) light on the instrument panel. The Riviera uses an ammeter instead of a dashboard indicator light. no brown on riviera as different on the wild cat > see picture up so no wire on pin 4 on riviera regulator and only a condensator ?? for radio parasite ? Edited October 20, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 No brown wire on Riviera, since there is no alternator light on the dash. You are correct; the condenser is for radio noise suppression. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, EmTee said: No brown wire on Riviera, since there is no alternator light on the dash. You are correct; the condenser is for radio noise suppression. so the ground on riviera regulator is only with the FIXING screws ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Yes - the regulator needs to be screwed to the firewall to complete the circuit. If testing a 'loose' regulator, you need to connect a jumper wire from the regulator body to the car body (ground). The condenser is an open circuit for DC (direct current); it shunts radio frequency (RF) 'noise' on that terminal to ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Remove the cover from the regulator and look for a fine wire tacked to the regulator base. I recently had to reattach that wire in my regulator when my alternator stopped charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 8 minutes ago, EmTee said: Remove the cover from the regulator and look for a fine wire tacked to the regulator base. I recently had to reattach that wire in my regulator when my alternator stopped charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Hard to see in the picture -- is the wire intact? If so, that's good. There could still be another problem with the regulator, however. Did you perform the charging system tests outlined in the shop manual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, EmTee said: Hard to see in the picture -- is the wire intact? If so, that's good. There could still be another problem with the regulator, however. Did you perform the charging system tests outlined in the shop manual? this picture is an example for testing alternator i will see this point and the F pin with the bat wire on disconnected alternator Edited October 20, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) In the voltage regulator assembly, the relay at the left is a "field relay" and the relay at the right is the "voltage regulator". There is apparently a mistake in the diagram of the voltage regulator. If you could see the rest of the alternator diagram you could see that one end of the field coil is grounded, and so the alternator requires voltage on the field terminal to magnetize the field and make the system charge. The contact arrangement on the regulator relay cannot be as shown in the diagram. It would not charge. In the regulator assembly, field pin "F" is connected to power through a resistor that limits current to the field coil, and results in a low charge (2 amps or so) normally. The upper contact on the regulator (shown grounded) is really connected to 12v somewhere in the regulator. When battery is low, or if the car is not started yet, there is insufficient voltage to pull the relay down, and so the field, which is connected to the center contact, is connected directly to 12V on the upper contact, bypassing the resistor, and the alternator tries to charge as much as it possibly can. This is normal when the battery is low. When the battery becomes charged enough that normal system voltage can be maintained, the points open, and the resistor I mentioned earlier is back in the field circuit, no longer bypassed. It is cutting charge way back, to probably only about 2 amps. But then, the system voltage instantly drops, the points re-close, and the system goes back into full charge mode. This repeats at a high rate. The contacts buzz, giving an effective charge rate somewhere between high and low. This is normal operation with a full battery, and how the system maintains it's normal regulated voltage. If you drive long enough like that with no lights or accessories on the battery will get completely full and the relay pulls down a little more, hanging out between the contacts with the system in low charge mode. If you continue to drive, the battery will get a slight overcharge just from the 2 amps, and the relay will pull down even further, contacting the lower contact which is grounded. This grounds the field so the alternator cannot charge at all. Instantly the system voltage falls, and the process repeats. The center contact buzzes against the grounded lower contact just like it did against against the upper one and the effective charge rate is somewhere between the 2 amps and nothing. Now, back to your question about why the wires are the way they are, it has to do with the field relay, and the fact that one car has an idiot light and the other does not, as @EmTee already mentioned. A field relay is an attempt to make the alternator system "turn itself on" as most generator systems did. Alternators have diodes and do not have or need a "cutout" to disconnect from the battery, but then a new problem appears. The field and regulator would be on all the time and drain the battery when the engine is not running. GM and Ford used a field relay to solve this. Chrysler used the ignition switch. Now comes the fun part . On a relay it is easier to hold a relay in the "on" position than to pull it to the "on" position. The field relay, as I mentioned earlier, is there to turn the regulator and field on. In a car with an idiot light (no ammeter), the light has one contact connected to 12V ignition power, and the other contact connected to pin 4 of the regulator. When the ignition is turned on, some current flows through the bulb, and finds its way to ground anyway it can. It glows. One of those paths is through the field coil in the alternator. This makes a tiny amount of magnetism in the field coil, and it is enough to make the alternator try to charge a little when it starts turning. The "R" terminal on the alternator is connected to the center of one of the three diode pairs in the alternator. This gives a dirty pulsing DC voltage. It is connected to pin 2. When the voltage gets high enough, it pulls the field relay down. It will stay there, because it is much easier to hold a relay down than to pull it. Now the battery is connected to the regulator and field. Normal operation begins. Incidentally, now that the field relay is closed, and the system is charging, pin 4, which is connected to the idiot light, is hot. The other contact of the bulb is still connected to ignition power. Since both contacts of the bulb are hot now, there is no difference between the two, and the light goes out. In the second diagram, on the right, they just turned the field relay (pin 2) on with ignition power and let pin 4 hang open. Nothing wrong with that. The condenser is for radio noise. I don't know which terminal it connects to. Edited October 20, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 @Bloo Thank you so much for that detailed explanation! I will have to read it a few times to digest it all. I switched to a fully electronic, solid state VR unit and it seems to work well. But it is sure nice to understand what all these wires and relays are doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 On 10/20/2023 at 1:44 AM, cquisuila said: I desesperate to drive a day my riviera WITHOUT problem..... Cquisuila, I know the feeling. When I restarted my project, I had to put it together (assemble) before I could even drive it. One issue after another. I don't have a name for my Riviera but if it had one, I'd call her (or him) "3-Times-the-Charmer". Fixing an issue once or twice, not enough it seems. You are posting on the best forum for help. Our Riviera's are reliable cars, especially yours being a G2 (1966). Keep at it! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 On 10/20/2023 at 10:42 PM, Bloo said: In the voltage regulator assembly, the relay at the left is a "field relay" and the relay at the right is the "voltage regulator". There is apparently a mistake in the diagram of the voltage regulator. If you could see the rest of the alternator diagram you could see that one end of the field coil is grounded, and so the alternator requires voltage on the field terminal to magnetize the field and make the system charge. The contact arrangement on the regulator relay cannot be as shown in the diagram. It would not charge. In the regulator assembly, field pin "F" is connected to power through a resistor that limits current to the field coil, and results in a low charge (2 amps or so) normally. The upper contact on the regulator (shown grounded) is really connected to 12v somewhere in the regulator. When battery is low, or if the car is not started yet, there is insufficient voltage to pull the relay down, and so the field, which is connected to the center contact, is connected directly to 12V on the upper contact, bypassing the resistor, and the alternator tries to charge as much as it possibly can. This is normal when the battery is low. When the battery becomes charged enough that normal system voltage can be maintained, the points open, and the resistor I mentioned earlier is back in the field circuit, no longer bypassed. It is cutting charge way back, to probably only about 2 amps. But then, the system voltage instantly drops, the points re-close, and the system goes back into full charge mode. This repeats at a high rate. The contacts buzz, giving an effective charge rate somewhere between high and low. This is normal operation with a full battery, and how the system maintains it's normal regulated voltage. If you drive long enough like that with no lights or accessories on the battery will get completely full and the relay pulls down a little more, hanging out between the contacts with the system in low charge mode. If you continue to drive, the battery will get a slight overcharge just from the 2 amps, and the relay will pull down even further, contacting the lower contact which is grounded. This grounds the field so the alternator cannot charge at all. Instantly the system voltage falls, and the process repeats. The center contact buzzes against the grounded lower contact just like it did against against the upper one and the effective charge rate is somewhere between the 2 amps and nothing. Now, back to your question about why the wires are the way they are, it has to do with the field relay, and the fact that one car has an idiot light and the other does not, as @EmTee already mentioned. A field relay is an attempt to make the alternator system "turn itself on" as most generator systems did. Alternators have diodes and do not have or need a "cutout" to disconnect from the battery, but then a new problem appears. The field and regulator would be on all the time and drain the battery when the engine is not running. GM and Ford used a field relay to solve this. Chrysler used the ignition switch. Now comes the fun part . On a relay it is easier to hold a relay in the "on" position than to pull it to the "on" position. The field relay, as I mentioned earlier, is there to turn the regulator and field on. In a car with an idiot light (no ammeter), the light has one contact connected to 12V ignition power, and the other contact connected to pin 4 of the regulator. When the ignition is turned on, some current flows through the bulb, and finds its way to ground anyway it can. It glows. One of those paths is through the field coil in the alternator. This makes a tiny amount of magnetism in the field coil, and it is enough to make the alternator try to charge a little when it starts turning. The "R" terminal on the alternator is connected to the center of one of the three diode pairs in the alternator. This gives a dirty pulsing DC voltage. It is connected to pin 2. When the voltage gets high enough, it pulls the field relay down. It will stay there, because it is much easier to hold a relay down than to pull it. Now the battery is connected to the regulator and field. Normal operation begins. Incidentally, now that the field relay is closed, and the system is charging, pin 4, which is connected to the idiot light, is hot. The other contact of the bulb is still connected to ignition power. Since both contacts of the bulb are hot now, there is no difference between the two, and the light goes out. In the second diagram, on the right, they just turned the field relay (pin 2) on with ignition power and let pin 4 hang open. Nothing wrong with that. The condenser is for radio noise. I don't know which terminal it connects to. Good explication I don't understand all....;) So you confirm for good testing alternator -Disconnect alternator to car _connect wire f to wire battery -verify tension 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 If you connect F wire to battery, alternator will charge as hard as it can with no regulation. Voltage at battery should go quite high. With regulator connected normally, regulator should automatically cut voltage back voltage on F wire so that it maintains approximately 14.7V at battery. Regulator must always be grounded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 4 hours ago, Bloo said: If you connect F wire to battery, alternator will charge as hard as it can with no regulation. Voltage at battery should go quite high. With regulator connected normally, regulator should automatically cut voltage back voltage on F wire so that it maintains approximately 14.7V at battery. Regulator must always be grounded. Sorry I am a poor electric man Questions -When you tell "f wire" it is the pin of alternator or the wire to regulator ? The pin f is it an entry or an outer ?? - the pin battery of alternator Is it an entry or outer ? Sorry for my poor understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) I said that because you said: 11 hours ago, cquisuila said: _connect wire f to wire battery -verify tension Putting 12v to "F" terminal on alternator (not the wire) makes the alternator charge as much as it possibly can. If you do this with the engine running you should see the voltage at the battery rise higher than normal. Do not leave it this way for very long. This is a common test called "full fielding" to see if an alternator is capable of charging. Since yours was like this: On 5/25/2023 at 8:22 AM, cquisuila said: when i fit first the tension was too high, around 17 v we know your alternator can charge, and you probably do not need to do the "full fielding" test. 2 hours ago, cquisuila said: The pin f is it an entry or an outer ?? - the pin battery of alternator Is it an entry or outer ? Pin F on regulator is an output, pin F on alternator is an entry. The large post on the alternator is the output, and is connected always to the battery through a large wire. Pin 3 on the regulator, marked Rouge/Battery in the diagram is an entry. A small wire from the battery (rouge) connects to it. This is used to power the regulator and alternator field when the system is on. Pin 3 is also used by the regulator to measure the battery voltage. Pin 2 on regulator is an entry. Voltage applied to this terminal turns the field relay on. The field relay turns the regulator and alternator field coil on. Edited October 22, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 Thank you for this important and precise explication ! For test full fielding i have to disconnect the wire outer + on alternator and i have to put à + from my battery to f pin alternator. Is it True ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 HERE my specific diagram for my buick riviera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) and the R pin of alternator ? what's it please ?😁 ON RIVIERA it is not used ON other cars it is drawn IN dotted lines and connected to pin2 regulator... sorry for all questions... Edited October 23, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) A dirty DC pulsing voltage comes from there. It is separate from the output post, and there is only voltage present at "R" when the alternator is spinning. It is good enough to turn on the field relay. This is how the system turns itself on (and off). The Riviera used ignition power to turn on the field relay, instead of "R". Edited October 23, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 36 minutes ago, Bloo said: A dirty DC pulsing voltage comes from there. It is separate from the output post, and there is only voltage present at "R" when the alternator is spinning. It is good enough to turn on the field relay. This is how the system turns itself on (and off). The Riviera used ignition power to turn on the field relay, instead of "R". I don't understand anything 😄about it but it's still very well explained.👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted December 12, 2023 Author Share Posted December 12, 2023 for information my charging system is efficient now I did nothing,except expose the sheet metal where the regulator fixing screws were positioned. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted December 12, 2023 Author Share Posted December 12, 2023 (edited) To test if an alternator is capable of charging , confirm-me this diagram is good ? : I don't leave it this way for very long....and I will mesure tension on the battery when engine on Edited December 13, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 Yes Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted December 13, 2023 Author Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) TEST alternator removed from car :😉 This diagram picture is good ??? NOT SURE for wire F ? Edited December 13, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 23 hours ago, cquisuila said: I did nothing,except expose the sheet metal where the regulator fixing screws were positioned. That's good. The regulator body must be grounded to the car body. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cquisuila Posted December 13, 2023 Author Share Posted December 13, 2023 25 minutes ago, EmTee said: That's good. The regulator body must be grounded to the car body. It is true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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