Flivver guy Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 I have gotten the tires all mounted on my 28 Packard 526. I took her out today for her maiden voyage. When I got back home I noticed the water pump is squeaking. Are these rebuildable? And if so, where would one source the parts? Thanks, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 Is there a grease cup or grease fitting? Most cars before about 1950 needed the water pump lubricated when you did a grease job and oil change, every 1000 or 2000 miles. There was a special water pump grease. If you can't get it, there is a waterproof outboard motor grease some guys use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivver guy Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 There is a grease fitting. I’m aware that these can be over greased, and I see grease coming out around the bushing. I will give it a shot or two of some marine grease and see if that quiets things down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 Go easy with the grease, it can work its way into the radiator and gum it up. Half a pump at each oil change about right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 I agree go easy. A modern grease gun can break a casting easily. less is more. Restorationstuff.com has water pump grease in 2 brands, Penrite and Lubriplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 (edited) You should still be able to buy water soluble oil intended for use in radiators and cooling systems. I would use a little bit of that. For the water pump bushings, especially those near the water passageways, Real water pump grease has been tough to get for years. I started using "boat trailer wheel bearing grease" for water pump bushings about twenty years ago. I have had excellent results with it! As Rusty O says, go easy with it. Expect the water pump to do one of two things in short order. It either may settle in, knock the surface rust off the shafts, and seal up fine with good packing. OR it will quickly begin chewing up the packing, or spring leaks in pin-hole corrosion inside, or simply not move the water enough because the impeller disintegrated. KEEP A VERY CLOSE WATCH ON THE ENGINE TEMERATURE! IF the water pump shows any sign of any of those failures? Then you will need to address it quickly, and likely do a proper rebuild of the pump! (Also nothing wrong with properly rebuilding the pump just because it is a good idea.) Watch the engine temperature! A short inattention can become very costly really quick! "Laser pointer" or "infrared" pointer thermometers are cheap these days. If you don't have one? GET ONE! (I bought mine over twenty years ago when they were well over a hundred dollars!) I don't use mine often, but it has paid for itself a dozen times over! Just for a starting point. Chose a bunch of test points, front back, crankcase, water jackets in block, water jackets in head, and the radiator, sides, middle top and bottom. MAKE NOTES! Start cold, then warming up after a few minutes, and again when well warmed up. Understanding the normal variations in temperatures is tricky. When warmed up, it should be coldest where it enters the block. Then warm up as it rises into the head, and hottest where it exits the head into the radiator. There should not be any major variations in water jacket temperature between front back and middle. If one area is significantly different? It may indicate gunk in the passageways. As a matter of routine, the side covers should be carefully removed and water jackets well cleaned. A before and after with the pointer thermometer can let you know how important that was! The pointer thermometer can also alert you to areas in the radiator that may be plugged. While still idling, check around the radiator. Areas colder than surrounding areas indicate probable blockages. The 1925 series 80 Pierce Arrow I had years ago originally had a sheet steel baffle inside the water jacket cover where the coolant entered the block. When I removed the cover, all that was left of the baffle was a few small remnants mixed in the rusty sludge. Without a pattern to follow, I estimated a design, and made a new baffle. Using the pointer thermometer assured me that the water distribution flow was working well. Those baffles are very important! Without them, coolant can rush in and straight through the engine without circulating enough to cool other areas where it is needed! A very good friend had a similar problem with a Stutz Bearcat! Stutz used an aluminum baffle plate. After contacting a dozen other Stutz owners, and not finding anyone with a proper baffle plate to copy, my friend had his "restoration manager" design one. Build it, test it, redesign it, remake it, test it again. The whole process took almost two weeks to get it right. But his Stutz is probably one of the best most drivable Bearcats in the country! Edited May 20, 2022 by wayne sheldon I hate leaving typos! (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivver guy Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 I will get myself one of those thermometers and do some testing before I take the car out again. I hadn’t really considered that the impeller could be disintegrated. I have also ordered a new thermometer for the moto meter as the original shows full red all the time. Thanks, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 Water pump grease you don't use a gun, just force it into the cup and screw the cap down which forces the grease in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivver guy Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 There is no grease cup on this pump. Just a grease fitting. Thanks, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32Pontiac6 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 (edited) I (and others) suggest using a screw type grease gun. The Packard manual implies that is what is used for this job. The fitting is on the bottom of the pump and a relief hole is on the top side. This way you see that the lube has gone all the way through. It also allows you to be able to flush old lube out. A pump or two and you will see grease coming out of it. I have used Lubriplate 115 for water pumps. As the ad says... "Ask the man who's lubed one..." or something like that..... Edited May 21, 2022 by 32Pontiac6 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 WOW! I think anyone is taking the life of their water pump in their hands if they use a lever-type grease gun on a water pump fitting! Up to 3,000 psi from a chassis grease gun will blow seals pretty quick. That happened to me 50 years ago when I was younger and dumber on a flathead Cadillac, after which I learned that the Cad was originally equipped with s short gun that had a twist-to-dispense T-handle on the control end. I've since recommended to Cadillac owners that they save the grease fitting for judging and use a grease cup at all other times. I'm pretty sure the Packard came with a grease CUP which can be turned down to dispense grease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32Pontiac6 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 12 minutes ago, Grimy said: WOW! I think anyone is taking the life of their water pump in their hands if they use a lever-type grease gun on a water pump fitting! Up to 3,000 psi from a chassis grease gun will blow seals pretty quick. That happened to me 50 years ago when I was younger and dumber on a flathead Cadillac, after which I learned that the Cad was originally equipped with s short gun that had a twist-to-dispense T-handle on the control end. I've since recommended to Cadillac owners that they save the grease fitting for judging and use a grease cup at all other times. I'm pretty sure the Packard came with a grease CUP which can be turned down to dispense grease. Actually, the twist kind of gun is what I use on pumps. But because there is not a seal and this is just a bushing to take up the thrust on the front of the pump and there is a relief hole I don't think that is too risky to use hand pump. Packard service manual says 'use a high pressure grease gun giving two or three turns' for water pump grease fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 43 minutes ago, 32Pontiac6 said: Packard service manual says 'use a high pressure grease gun giving two or three turns' for water pump grease fitting. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Packard had a different idea of what a high pressure grease gun was than what we have available today! I use a hand twist era grease gun for most of my vintage Alemite grease fittings. I bought the thing over fifty years ago, and it was considered an antique then! A long time ago, a good friend bought a Pierce Arrow, and I went along to help drive it a couple hundred miles to its new home (few people fifty years ago had a trailer big enough to haul one of the larger Pierce Arrows). He took the Pierce to a local shop and had some service done, including greasing everything that wanted some (it had obviously not been properly serviced in a long time!). About a half hour later we had some scary moments when we lost the brakes on the Pierce! Turned out, the shop's high pressure grease gun had enough pressure, that the grease pumped into one of the brake equalized cross shafts to shear the rivet that held the clevis arm on the end of the shaft!!!!!!! The keyway that also held the clevis arm on the shaft held it dangling on the end for a few miles until it shook off. Once that happened, the keyway held nothing, and the equalizer simply twisted the one side pulling on nothing, and applied brakes to nothing! Fortunately, a safe gentle stop was accomplished on the side of the road (about ten miles from nowhere!). I crawled underneath, found and the problem. It took some effort, but I managed to remove the pieces of the sheared (quarter inch!) rivet. Then I began pushing the clevis arm back onto the shaft and key in the keyway (fortunately it had not fallen out!).I quickly discovered that the grease inside would not allow the shaft to slide all the way back into place. I then removed the grease fitting, and pried the shaft back into place while nearly a quarter cup of grease squeezed out onto the ground! We happened to have a large quarter inch size cotter pin in the tool box, it was used in place of the sheared rivet, while the key did the majority of the work holding the clevis arm in place. All in all, it was a really fun trip, with a few more interesting tales involved (including another and much scarier moment!). But I just tell the one tale now to illustrate the potentially dangerous side of high pressure grease guns. And as Grimy says, It isn't just about maybe losing brakes? But also breaking expensive to replace parts of unobtanium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 1 hour ago, 32Pontiac6 said: Actually, the twist kind of gun is what I use on pumps. But because there is not a seal and this is just a bushing to take up the thrust on the front of the pump and there is a relief hole I don't think that is too risky to use hand pump. Packard service manual says 'use a high pressure grease gun giving two or three turns' for water pump grease fitting. Whew, Rob, I'm glad we're in agreement. When you said "regular grease gun" in your first comment, I was thinking about the cartridge style lever-operated guns I use on chassis zerks. @wayne sheldonI can't help but think that that clevis was already fractured most of the way through, and the grease pressure just finished it off. Like 1929-30 Pierce 8-spline axles which are known for ease of breaking: when one of mine let go, the oil stain on about 80% of the cross section of the stubs indicated that the initial fracture happened many years before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32Pontiac6 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 (edited) Words matter.... I have one of the twist type (and that is what seems to be implied by the Packard manual description) that is always filled with the waterproof lubricant for the three water pumps I shepherd. It is a vintage one. @Grimy PS: I also edited the original post. Edited May 21, 2022 by 32Pontiac6 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Tough to know sometimes. However it is possible that there was some old fracture there. But when I got the pieces out and looked at them, they looked like a clean shear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivver guy Posted May 21, 2022 Author Share Posted May 21, 2022 So in lieu of a screw type grease gun, would I be good to use a screw in grease cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 ... also, you might want to make sure the squeaking isn't coming from the fan belt. You can test that easily by either spraying a little belt dressing on it, or simply rubbing a bar of soap onto the inside edges of the belt while it's running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivver guy Posted May 21, 2022 Author Share Posted May 21, 2022 Thanks. I’ll try that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32Pontiac6 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Flivver guy said: So in lieu of a screw type grease gun, would I be good to use a screw in grease cup? I think the screw type gun will work fine but if you want to use a grease cup that is fine, too. Just make sure you see the lube coming out of the return hole to make sure it has thoroughly lubed the bushing. Edited May 21, 2022 by 32Pontiac6 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 4 hours ago, Flivver guy said: So in lieu of a screw type grease gun, would I be good to use a screw in grease cup? The preferred method, IMHO, except for judging. You'll never blow a water pump seal with a grease cup! 🙂 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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