Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Locomobiles were hand-built. Many numbers were stamped on vital parts in various places, which changed over the years. Besides the car number which is shown on the identification plate on the dashboard, the most prominent number is the engine number. This is not only cast into the front left crankcase (behind the Klaxon horn, near the first cylinder), but also stamped onto the front left support arm (where the engine is bolted to the chassis), on the upper flange on the right side of the timing case and once more right beside it, on the crankcase flange, then on all 12 valve caps (which carry the spark plugs), and many internal parts like crankshaft, connecting rods, oil pan, and so on.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On the 1917 model you can find the crankcase casting date on the rear right engine support arm (behind the handle for checking the oil level): Three letters for the month, two digits for the day and two digits for the year. The same system applies to the transmission date which is cast into the bottom of the lower case.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On each cylinder barrel's bottom flange (left side, hiding behind by the inlet valve covers) are dates stamped "2 digits for month - 2 digits for the day - 2 digits for the year". I assume this was made when the cylinder's machining was finished, before it was assigned to a specific engine.

[alsfarms]

Very interesting numbers subject.  It appears that the jugs on your 1917 were held in stock until needed or your engine was rebuilt at a later date using parts?  What is your thinking?  As I can I will check numbers on the 1925 Demarest Limousine.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On another owner's car I found a date stamped into the crankcase, only visible when the oilpan is off. I assume this is the engine assembly finish date. On my 1921 model I was not able to find this manufacturing date information.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is an 38-48 engine related question.  Are the cast aluminum valve covers the same between the 38 and 48?

Al

[alsfarms]

I wonder that the stamped image refers to that is located just above the date stamp?

Al

Edited December 22, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

2 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Very interesting numbers subject.  It appears that the jugs on your 1917 were held in stock until needed or your engine was rebuilt at a later date using parts?  What is your thinking?  As I can I will check numbers on the 1925 Demarest Limousine.

Al

I hope to get the answer to this question when I take the oil pan off my Tourer. Right now there is no need for this.

[alsfarms]

I certainly agree, that question is nothing to loose sleep over.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:24 PM, alsfarms said:

Here is an 38-48 engine related question.  Are the cast aluminum valve covers the same between the 38 and 48?

Al

38 and 48 valve covers were most probably not the same size. Chris measured several dimensions of his 1917 model 38 and compared to my 1917 model 48, and everything is similar but smaller, shorter, slightly more narrow. Moreover, the calve covers were made individally to each engine, because they were stamped with the engine number and to which location they belong. No. 1 being the cylinder 1 inlet valve cover, number 12 being the cylinder 6 exhaust valve cover.

I assume they were made individually in order to reach the smalles possible tolerance because they shall be reasonably dust- and oil-tight without using any seal.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Upon further study of the valve cover castings...I unknowingly thought each cover was a single casting not made up of two pieces. The small center casting shown above must be an alignment pin.  Frank, as you have been at this point on your 48's, do you take them off the engine as a pair or singly?

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Upon further study of the valve cover castings...I unknowingly thought each cover was a single casting not made up of two pieces. The small center casting shown above must be an alignment pin.  Frank, as you have been at this point on your 48's, do you take them off the engine as a pair or singly?

Al

Undo both nuts (they are secured inside, cannot be lost), pull both as a set out a bit (two fingers can do, but take your time, they are made with a very close fit, easy to tilt), then separate them and get them out individually.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Please provide more information on the following statement.  [Undo both nuts, they are secured inside, cannot be lost].  I am not sure how these "nuts" are secured so they can't be lost.  Am I to assume that the threaded shank stays in the static position and the casting must be slid off those studs?   I can see a future galvanic corrosion being an issue between two dissimilar metals and not being able to remove these covers very easily.

Al

Edited December 23, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Please provide more information on the following statement.  [Undo both nuts (they are secured inside, cannot be lost].  I am not sure how these "nuts" are secured so they can't be lost.  Am I to assume that the threaded shank stays in the static position and the casting must be slid off those studs?  

Al

the shaft is much smaller then the thread, you can't pull the bolts out from the aluminium. The bolt can move quite freely in it's hole for easy alignment, but you can't get it out. I assume there is a little dowle pin somewhere close tho the shaft which stops the bolt from coming off. I didn't really search for it, just cleaned everything. The bolts seem to be nickel plated. You are right about the alignment pin and hole in the center.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I am slow sometimes!!!!  I studied the pictures and feel I have answered my own question.  These aluminum valve covers are held on with a tall headed bolt.  That would mean that as the bolt head is turned off to remove, the shank of the bolt breaks free off any bonding with the aluminum and the bolt can be slid out and also the valve cover.  I might be slow but I am steady!!!!   🙂

Al

[alsfarms]

I can see from your picture a small hole drilled into the casting, inside.  This must be for the locking pin to retain the shaft of the bolt.  This is interesting.  The Demarest Limousine does have the full set of valve covers however, I have a second project that I need to put a pair of valve cover castings on.  I need to determine a proper means to replicate 4 valve covers.

Al

[alsfarms]

Frank, give me some insites on the pictures above that have the red cylinders on.  Those are from your 1917 48?  Your pictures of the crankcase nearly appears like they have been nickle plated.  Is that a correct or incorrect assumption?

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Frank, give me some insites on the pictures above that have the red cylinders on.  Those are from your 1917 48?  Your pictures of the crankcase nearly appears like they have been nickle plated.  Is that a correct or incorrect assumption?

Al

Yes, someone painted the engine red. Sooner or later I will correct that. My tourer is a M7 series two model 1917, parts are from 1915 and 1916 showing how slowly they produced. The crankcase is bronze as usual, but in some areas it seems to have a strange silver appearance, no idea what has been done to it. I have not started cleaning anything except the parts which I had taken apart (carburetor and intake manifold, starter and solenoid, valve covers, magneto, ignition switch, fuel pressure gauge and level indicator), the photos was taken before that.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is a "tongue in cheek" comment.  The red/orange Locomobile engine color looks very close to what would originally be on my 1957 Corvette engine!  Do you see any design difference in carburetors on the 1917 and the 1921?

Al

Edited December 23, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

57 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Here is a "tongue in cheek" comment.  The red/orange Locomobile engine color looks very close to what would originally be on my 1957 Corvette engine!  Do you see any design difference in carburetors on the 1917 and the 1921?

Al

Yes, carburetors are similar at first view but very different internally. I will describe that soon, need to take measurements and more detailed photos first.

[alsfarms]

Is your magneto on the 1917 a Berling?   Not sure of spelling.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Is your magneto on the 1917 a Berling?   Not sure of spelling.

Yes, it's the Berling DD66, double dual spark with two contact breakers, made by Ericsson Mfg.Co. in Buffalo, NY. That incredible piece of engineering kept me busy for nearly a year and will be worth another story.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here are some insight views of the 1921 engine.

Note the hand-written number inside the oil pan: That's not the engine but the car number! Who wrote that? Perhaps a service technician at a Locomobile dealer's workshop, for not mixing up the oil pan with another customer's car?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here are some numbers and interesting stampings:

13590 is the engine number.

43 is also found on several other parts, like the generator bracket which most probably has been machines together with the crankcase in order to have a pefect alignment between timing gear, waterpump shaft and generator shaft?

L.G.CO on the crankshaft

the word "balanced" on the crankshaft made me really curious, and I found amazing information on that matter. I will explain later.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Please note the big timing gears on the camshafts: On this 1921 engine it looks like they are made entirely of bakelite (a kind if fiber, no metal).

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On a 1920 engine which I saw recently, these timing gears are made up of three parts, like a sandwich: Steel-fiber-steel. Does anyone know when and why they changed it?

[George K]

Have you ever checked the the play of the crankshaft. I have never read any clearance specifications for Locomobile.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I have not taken the 1917 engine apart. Through the timing gear oil filler hole I cannot yet see clearly what material the timing gear is made of, but it is definitely not this sandwich-design.

Edited June 22 by Ittenbacher Frank
spelling error (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

1 minute ago, George K said:

Have you ever checked the the play of the crankshaft. I have never read any clearance specifications for Locomobile.

Yes, I did: I used a jack and a long wooden post from underneath and applied a bit of pressure under the connecting rod caps. I expected to feel the play in the main bearings and/or the big end bearings, but the only result was a clink-clonk noise from the king pins axial play (I already lifted the whole car!). The engine is so tight you wouldn't belive it can run. The oil pressure is absolutely stable, even with thin oil.

[George K]

It’s basically a low oil pressure engine. What is you running oil pressures?

Did a quick search and found this ad for replacement timing gears. IliLocomob

[George K]

On 12/22/2021 at 3:16 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

On the 1917 model you can find the crankcase casting date on the rear right engine support arm (behind the handle for checking the oil level): Three letters for the month, two digits for the day and two digits for the year. The same system applies to the transmission date which is cast into the bottom of the lower case.

I have seen this slivering before. Thought at first it might have been aluminum radiator paint. Lately wondering if it is a result of the type of manganese bronze alloy in casting. Perhaps the zinc or perhaps small amounts of lead sweating out. Bronze is very sticky to pour in thin large sections. Just a thought.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

9 minutes ago, George K said:

It’s basically a low oil pressure engine. What is you running oil pressures?

Did a quick search and found this ad for replacement timing gears. IliLocomob

Great ad! The Buick gear looks like this sandwich-type?

In which year was that ad published?

Your question regarding the oil pressure: I have not measured it with a calibrated gauge. The needle of the Locomobile gauge is at full stroke when starting the cold engine, remains in the middle (responding to engine speed variations nicely) during all kinds of driving in summer with 15W-40 oil, and is still showing a little oil pressure (1 digit above 0) at very low idle (below 300 RpM) after several hours of faster driving during hot summer sunshine.

[edinmass]

Loco sure did stamp their power plants..........Pierce also did the same thing, including a bore measurement for every hole down to a tenth. We once dissembled a factory crate V-12 engine from 1934. There were notes written in pencil on the inside.........absolutely fascinating.........

[Ittenbacher Frank]

About balancing: Why does the Locomobile six work so smoothly? Because also a submarine must not vibrate!

Delmar "Barney" Roos (1888-1960) was an electrical and mechanical engineer (and photographer, athlet, and much more). From 1913 till 1919 he worked as assistant research engineer for Locomobile. He reported to the chief designer and vice president Andrew L. Riker. In his later assignments he was the main responsible for developing the Willys Jeep, he designed it's famous Go-Devil-engine.

He made interesting statements about the process of crankshaft balancing at Locomobile, which was printed in a report in 1917, issued by the SAE. His boss Riker was founder and during the first three years the president of the

amerikanischen Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

6 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Great ad! The Buick gear looks like this sandwich-type?

In which year was that ad published?

Your question regarding the oil pressure: I have not measured it with a calibrated gauge. The needle of the Locomobile gauge is at full stroke when starting the cold engine, remains in the middle (responding to engine speed variations nicely) during all kinds of driving in summer with 15W-40 oil, and is still showing a little oil pressure (1 digit above 0) at very low idle (below 300 RpM) after several hours of faster driving during hot summer sunshine.

I see the ad in 1921 and 1922. Westways magazine. That was a magazine published by AAA. Have you checked end play on the crankshaft.?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

3 minutes ago, George K said:

I see the ad in 1921 and 1922. Westways magazine. That was a magazine published by AAA. Have you checked end play on the crankshaft.?

no, I didn't see any reason for that. I would definitely do that when dismantling, but not on this "new" engine. I had to take the sump off only for accessing a damaged thread at the oil pump flange for proper repair.

[George K]

8 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

no, I didn't see any reason for that. I would definitely do that when dismantling, but not on this "new" engine. I had to take the sump off only for accessing a damaged thread at the oil pump flange for proper repair.

The gears in the ad are sandwich type. Your gear is much wider than the accessory gears. Also It has Allen drive countersunk fasteners. Looks much newer.

[George K]

Just a couple illustrations from a circa 1916 Locomobile instruction book.

 

Merry Christmas. 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

14 hours ago, George K said:

The gears in the ad are sandwich type. Your gear is much wider than the accessory gears. Also It has Allen drive countersunk fasteners. Looks much newer.

George, you are right. I also saw the allen drive head. As I said, this in not my car, and even the owner doesn't know what happened to the car before, but several details show that several smaller and bigger modifications had been carried out during the more than 100 years before.

Having learned from your ad that companies offered aftermarket parts like timing gears even for Locomobile, I like to believe that this engine does not necessarily represent the Bridgeport's engineering standard of 1920.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

13 minutes ago, George K said:

Just a couple illustrations from a circa 1916 Locomobile instruction book.

 

Merry Christmas. 

Dear George, thanks for these two pages. It is amazing: I have copies of one May 1915 and one April 1917 instruction books, and both are not showing the oiling system and timing gears as your book. These look like solid metal, similar to the photos of other locomobile engines which I found on the internet, and two of my friends in Europe. Merry Christmas for now!