alsfarms Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Hello Harm, Has spring sprung in Holland? We are having a little taste of spring today. Your update is appreciated as you have overcome yet another obstacle. You will likely have a running driving car this summer. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 (edited) On 3/20/2024 at 6:53 PM, alsfarms said: Hello Harm, Has spring sprung in Holland? We are having a little taste of spring today. Your update is appreciated as you have overcome yet another obstacle. You will likely have a running driving car this summer. Al Hello Al, Spring came slowly but went away very fast, may be next week its getting better.... It seems Spring has a bit of a starting problem 😄. Yesterday I took the mower -John Deere X740- out, came half way (1 acre of the 2) ran very hot, V belt broken, well, not a good start of the mowing season 🤬. I hope to have the Oakland running end of April.... The brakes need some attention too. Regards, Harm Edited May 11 by Sloth (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 At least the belt broke now instead of when the grass is growing like wildfire and it’s raining every couple of days. Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 Hello, today I ran in a nasty problem. Last week I finished the half shafts, milled the key ways (5/16") and fitted the keys to test it with the hubs. At first glance the keys fitted nicely into the key way of the hubs. But I got a bit suspicious because on the end of the hubs (at the brake drum end so to say) I saw about 3/64" play. Taking the half shaft out and measured the key way at the hub, the hub key way seems tapered over the full length (about 5"). I guess this wear is caused by non fitting keys or lose half shaft nuts. To rectify this there are some solutions: broaching a new larger key way (3/8") or turning out the core of the hub brazing a new core in it, turning a new taper and broaching the correct key way. But I am a bit stuck now, what to do to repair this? Gentleman can you give me some advice what to do? Regards, Harm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Broaching it out to 3/8" would probably be the easiest, but taking into consideration how much material you have to work with and will it pose any mechanical or engineering issues. Pictures may help us more. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I'd be inclined to broach the hub but only to the depth of the original key...then make custom keys to fit, either with a step so they fit both the half shaft and the hub or mill the keyway in the half shaft wider. I've seen "repair" keys advertised for this application. I don't think widening the key way would post a strength problem while making it deeper might. It is a tapered hole? If so, I'd love to see how you solve the problem of holding it while broaching. I've puzzled over broaching a tapered hole several times. I've never done it because I haven't had to but the time will come when it's necessary. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 Hello gentlemen, thank you you for your advice. Below are some pictures of the half shafts (yesterday I managed to delete them on my telephone 😒). Both finished half shafts. Shaft end with key way Shaft end with differential gear. Drivers side hub with the tapered hole and "offending" key way, the passengers side hub is even worse. First option would be: widening the key way to 10 mm (my old 3/8" broach is missing some edges on the teeth 😒, delivery time of a new one -6 weeks..-). My doubts are, that this key way will be much wider than the existing one, I have no idea what the mechanical implications are. Another option would be: leaving the key way at the shaft as is (5/16") and broaching a new one at the opposite direction of the existing one, and filling up the existing one. I am still pondering what to do. Regards, Harm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 (edited) I decided to broach the existing key way in the hubs. Made them 10 mm, that is right for an 1.378" shaft size, according to the SAE instruction for key ways. First I made a tapered bushing for broaching the hubs. Tapered bushing for key way broaching the hubs. Milling the key way for guiding the broach into the tapered bushing. Bad picture of the tapered bushing into the hub (backside). Picture of the tapered busing into the hub (front side). At last: broaching the hubs with a widened key way. Then I milled the key ways, widening them to 10mm into the 2 shafts. Used a level and some tapered shims under the hub, to be sure the widened key way is made horizontal. All went well, lost only one small tooth edge of the broach. Broaches are made to use the whole width of the teeth, not just a small part. The keys fitted nicely. I am satisfied, no clonking noises for the wheels anymore (I hope). Regards, Harm Edited April 28 by Sloth (see edit history) 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 (edited) There is one thing which worries me a lot, and that is the cluster gear. For test driving the Oakland I will use it as is, but for longer distance driving a good one is needed. Finding a better used one is impossible, as the are not many 1910 model K's left. So as a first shot, I asked around what it would cost to make a new one, well to make a long story short: a lot. But that is of no concern for me, because no one would take on the job. So what to do? I have an idea to make one as an assembly of keyed gears on a shaft. Just to know what I am talking about, I made some drawings of the cluster gear. I think it can be done, but I can't find much on the internet about it. Also my books don't help me any further. Gentlemen, do you know if that approach of making a cluster gear has be done successfully before? Below pictures of the object of my sorrows. To me it looks that the cluster gear is not hardened very well. Further it seems that the missing teeth of the main gear went through the gears on the cluster gear. Also a lot of wear on some of the gears. Regards, Harm Edited April 28 by Sloth (see edit history) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 I confess I'd never thought of making a tapered broach guide...that is brilliant. As to the cluster gear, I don't see why you couldn't assemble it. What is the wall thickness of the central shaft? And, if you made a new central shaft in a larger diameter would that fit in the transmission? I'm sure you can do it and I'll be curious to learn how. I've been very lucky in that none of the cars I've had to repair had a bad one. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 It looks to me as if the large gear on the end is attached with rivets. If so, perhaps you could make the entire thing. It would be a lot of work reducing the diameter of a bar to incorporate the three smaller gears but, beside that, the only reservation I have is the diameter of the involute cutter used to cut the teeth and if it would be able to cut the larger of the two middle gears without hitting the smaller one. I bet that was the way it was done originally so there is a good chance it can be done. They are straight cut gears so all you really need is a dividing head and a horizontal mill. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I've been rethinking this and it looks as if I got it backwards. It's the smaller of the two central gears that will be difficult...there is plenty of clearance for the larger one. The teeth were probably cut with a hob...I" don't know where you would get the right one but if you did it that way it could be done vertically. I've never done that but my understanding of the process suggests that it could be done without either a dividing head or the horizontal mill. could you give us the DP of the gears and the number of teeth? I'm fascinated by problems like this so I'll look for a solution. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I’m no machinists, but is it possible to make a shaft with the smallest gear on the end. Make the other three gears with the ID of the shaft and weld them on the shaft in the proper location?mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) Welding would almost certainly distort them and, even if it didn't, would greatly complicate the hardening process. Ideally, the gears should be hard but I doubt the shaft should be. I think the wear is so bad because having made it in one piece it was impossible to harden the gear faces properly. They were probably surface hardened and the very thin hard surface wore through. My most recent idea is a shaft with the two smaller gears integral. Then the larger of the central gears slipped on and attached to the smaller one. The flange at the end could be threaded on. You'd have to know the direction the shaft turns in when going forward so you could use either a left or right hand thread...you'd want it to tighten under forward load. With the flange screwed on, I'd pin it to the shaft. Actually, I can't think of anyone better qualified to figure this out than Harm. Edited April 29 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted April 30 Author Share Posted April 30 (edited) Hello gentlemen, thank all you for your advice and interest for my struggle with the Oakland. . @Joe, the gears are DP6 with a 14.5 degrees PA. The central shaft on which the cluster gear runs in the gear box has a diameter of 1". Below is a quick sketch, I did not yet draw the bronze bushings with the outside flanges (all dimensions in mm). Inspecting the existing cluster gear, i saw some traces of rough welding between the gears. Further more, the large riveted gear is also welded at 4 points at the flange (belt and suspenders ??). Conclusion: its not a very precisely made piece of cluster gear, a bit rough I would say. Making the gears would be not much of a problem.... (I am an optimistic person 😄), I have the needed profile cutters and an horizontal milling machine. Would be a nice adventure. Regards, Harm Edited May 1 by Sloth Forgot to insert drawing (see edit history) 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 DP6 won't be a problem. I've been buying the involute cutters I've needed from a place in Yorkshire... Keeping in mind that I always come up with complicated solutions to problems like this...here's another. Make the central shaft with the two smaller gears in one piece. Leave the shaft enlarged just enough to put a fine thread on it and screw the larger middle gear on...doing this before turning the final diameter and the teeth are cut. Then do the same with the flange for the larger gear so that the two pieces butt and pin the flange to the shaft. Attach the blank for the gear on the end to the flange and then turn the diameter and cut the teeth. All the teeth will then be perfectly concentric with the shaft. I'm not certain they would have to be hardened if you use a modern "gear" steel ... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 I'm betting you come up with a simpler way of doing it.😃 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted May 8 Author Share Posted May 8 (edited) Yesterday and today, I spent a lot of time to assemble the rear axle and third member. Made all the necessary gaskets, and some special nuts and bolts. Many original were not usable anymore 😡. After nearly 3 years off and on, I hope to put the drive train Saturday under the car. The things left to do, is installing the battery, battery switch, starting switch and electric wiring. My goal is to have it running on Sunday.... but as the saying goes: Even the best laid plans of mice and man often go awry . 😉 Drive train ready for the car! Regarding the cluster gear: as the manufacturing will need a lot of time and preparation, I decided to postpone it to November. At the moment the tour season starts, so Ann and I are a lot "underway". Furthermore, gardening will absorb a lot of time and energy. Regards, Harm Edited May 8 by Sloth Pictures way to large (see edit history) 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 Good work Harm. I hope your weather lets you get the Oakland up and running per your schedule. Have fun.......easy on the transmission! Al 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) Wonderful...I''m really anxious to see how you solve the cluster gear problem. In an odd sense, it's such an interesting challenge I'm almost sorry I don't have to deal with it. You've really saved this Oakland. As it was, it was a static display at best. Now I trust it will be an excellent, powerful and reliable car....and, I've made a lot of nuts and bolts. Modern ones just don't look right. Edited May 9 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Fantastic work Harm! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted May 20 Author Share Posted May 20 (edited) Dear all, Last week I worked day and night to complete the Oakland. Put on a temporary 'make shift' muffler. That went well, but we got visited by friends so it took more time than I hoped for. Thursday I tried to start the engine, lots of smoke and very loud bangs. May be an Ignition problem? The p.o. had an electronic ignition installed, but as no schematics where available, the only thing I could do to fire up the old SUN 1120. Hooked the number one cylinder pick-up and looked at the picture on tube, and that did not looked good. Only irregular spikes. The p.o. used an Bosch DU4 magneto and rebuild it with an pick-up sensor and some kind of (for me) unknown electronics. The high tension was disabled and the direction of rotation changed from CW to CCW. Must say, very clever done. When I got the car, it ran nicely on the electronic ignition, no idea what happened. Instead of spending a lot of time tracing the information about the electronic ignition, I decided to remove it, and install the original Remy ignition which I had on the shelf for some 25 years. Spent a lot of time to get the timing right, forgot that the Oakland engine rotated CCW 😡. But after a lot of tries I got it running (on battery not yet on magneto). No smoke and no fuss, the engine starts fast and runs very well. The original magneto for the car is a Remy model S, I used an RL. Today (Monday), Ann and I pushed the car out of the shop and mounted the car 😊 (34" wheels, so its a bit tall). I started the engine and put it in first gear, slowly released the clutch and off we go. Just a small run just about 50 yards, no problems so far. Brakes functioned more or less, put it in reverse gear no problems. Well, after some coffee and apple pie, what to do next? As it is still early, 9:00 o'clock, and there are no biking tourists on the road at this early hour, we opted for a 6 mile drive. Now I could try the second and third gear. Conclusion: after this 6 mile test, the clutch behaved perfect, no shuddering, no jumping no slipping. The car is a very strong runner, during the test drive we drove up a small hill, no problem at all. No whining of gears, no temperature increase of the gear box, clutch and rear axle. So I guess all the adjustments of the gears worked out OK. Changing gears went well, no crashing sounds, clutch behaved silk soft. Fluids used: Rear axle 85W140 Hypoid (Mineral oil). Gear box: 80W90 GL4 Gearbox oil Clutch: ATF 220 (Red) Engine: 10w45 Classic (Half-synthetic) Coolant: Universal coolant ready to use (Pink) In the excitement of the run, I forgot to take pictures 🥵. Next run I will take pictures. Things to do: fixing the windscreen (upper part wont stay up), buying a muffler, repairing and fitting the dust pan. Furthermore, there are lots of small chores to do. As there are: repainting some scratches, assembling accessories (spare tires holder, fitting the speedometer, fitting the horn and head lights and so on). Making a new top, the existing one is white and dirty and beyond repair. Besides that black looks much better on a green car. Making a tonneau cover and side screens. Relining emergency brake bands. One last remark, Ann is very happy how the car behaved 🥰. And as the saying goes: Happy wife, happy life ☺️. Regards, Harm PS This is not the end of this story, I will keep you informed about the progress 😉. Edited May 21 by Sloth (see edit history) 12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Sinclair Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 Great to hear it ran well, did you end up just putting the cluster gear back in? I am looking forwards to seeing some pictures of it, looks like a beautiful car! -Matthew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 First drives are always reward for your hard work. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 Harm, certainly good news from your shop and serious efforts! If you can, shoot a short video clip....... 🙂 Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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