JohnD1956 Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, old-tank said: What grade? Check the compression and report back. AC44 is the specified plug for the 322, but the heat range may be too hot for the modern volatile ethanol laced fuel we have. I use a 91 octane non ethanol fuel. I did put in the AC44's I had. They are new plugs from decades ago. I am planning to try the autolite 85's based on a conversation with KAD36. I will see about a compression test when I source the plugs. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 10 hours ago, old-tank said: the heat range may be too hot for the modern volatile ethanol laced fuel we have. Those are my thoughts as well. When I used to run the AC plugs in it many years ago the local NAPA back in my hometown said the updated plug spec for the 322 was an R43. I don’t know why the specs switched to a colder plug, noted that on some vette and tri five sites, but I ran either those or Bosch #6 for years until Old Tank told me to try the Autolite 85s and have never looked back since. Out of curiosity I looked up a champion plug and came to an “J6” heat range which is colder than the “J12” taken out. Wondering how much that has contributed to the pinging at 2.5deg base timing? Will be interested to see what happens. Thanks for the update JD. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Visit the distributor again and be sure that the breaker plate is moving while vacuum is applied and disconnected. How good is that ethanol free 91 octane fuel? My cars all ran well on mid-grade fuel before ethanol showed up. And until recently there was no ethanol free available. Now they run well on 87 octane e10... Maybe better. I tried a few tanks of ethanol-free and there was some pinging and the vapor lock and percolation was no better. Ethanol in gas is an octane booster and that's all you're going to find while you're traveling. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Okay another question when is it pinging going up that hill part throttle or wide open throttle? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Thinking out loud …if everything else remained equal to before you put the 44s in, or if the plug temperature change doesn’t result in anything remarkable, and you trust the gas then we are likely into checking the advance mechanisms as well as compression as discussed; being an original engine, some carbon may have raised the compression, but my thought would’ve been retarding timing would have gotten you under that threshold. Huh. Interesting….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 6 hours ago, old-tank said: Okay another question when is it pinging going up that hill part throttle or wide open throttle? Part throttle, but into the secondaries. Also heard some at WOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Carbon buildup can raise compression, but the other thing it can do create local hot-spots that can ignite the intake charge prematurely. (Like charcoal embers in your BBQ grille...) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said: Part throttle, but into the secondaries. Also heard some at WOT. Part throttle detonation is aggravated by a weak spring in the vacuum advance allowing too much advance at lower vacuum. There are lots of vacuum advance units that will "fit" your distributor but they all have different springs and advance. Check if it has been changed. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 55 minutes ago, old-tank said: There are lots of vacuum advance units that will "fit" your distributor but they all have different springs and advance. Is there an adjustable one available that fits this distributor? If so, it would be pretty straightforward to set it up using a timing light with adjustable advance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 14 hours ago, EmTee said: Is there an adjustable one available that fits this distributor? If so, it would be pretty straightforward to set it up using a timing light with adjustable advance. No adjustable available other than changing springs and no adjustment on amount of advance if the unit is wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 3, 2023 Author Share Posted June 3, 2023 In my case here it is likely the original Vacuum Advance. It does still move as evidenced by timing mark advancement as the engine is revved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 If it advances, you’re seeing the mechanical advance plus vacuum as the engine hits steady state. When the vac drops under load as the throttle is blipped you.…. might……see the timing briefly retard until the engine reaches steady state and that could tell you it’s at least functional if you don’t have the means to isolate the two. At very low 325ish rpm idle you’re seeing base setting only (vac advance source is ported vacuum which is essentially zero -no advance- with throttle plates closed on the 55/56 WCFB, vs manifold vacuum used on later models which is 18ish at idle), at higher rpm’s it’s centrifugal advance (engine rpm based) plus vac advance (load based). You’d probably need to be on the drivers side to see the mark to see total advance ( base plus mechanical plus vac) without an adjustable timing light lol. Having had one act up on me before, the vacuum advance actuator starts to pull in (allowing advance) at about 7 inches of vacuum and is all in around 13-14 inches vac ( from my notes). So the vac would have to drop on the throttle blip pretty far and even then am not sure you’d see the number retard on the flywheel. If you want to see it in operation on car using existing source better maybe to be at part throttle steady state rpm, check there is vac available at the line, then connect it and see the advance. Am assuming an adaptor to press into the vac advance port to use something like a mity vac isn’t available? Figured you might come up with something inventive like that polarizing tool, which btw I have just copied and threw in my tuneup kit (thank you very much 🤣🤣). Worst case for a quick functional check without a separate controllable vac source, with the distributor cap and vac line off, rotate the breaker plate manually (compressing the advance spring) and press your finger over the vac advance port, maybe moistened with a little oil to help it seal, let go of the breaker plate and see if it holds. Am assuming the carb is supplying vac at the line off idle…. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 For a quick test you could try disconnecting and plugging the vacuum line to the distributor. Then drive up your favorite 'pinging hill' and see what happens. If no pinging, then at least you'll know that the vacuum part of the advance curve is the culprit. If it still pings, then maybe the centrifugal springs have weakened, or the mechanical advance weights are sticking in an over-advanced position. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 12 hours ago, EmTee said: If no pinging, then at least you'll know that the vacuum part of the advance curve is the culprit. ^——-👍. Had to stop and think about that over a cup or three of coffee, good idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 John, did you have a borescope to look for carbon inside the cylinders? Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 6, 2023 Author Share Posted June 6, 2023 No Bob. I may be able to get one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 7, 2023 Author Share Posted June 7, 2023 I want to thank all for their comments and ideas. Today I did some more diagnostics and here are my notes to myself: Ambient temp 63* 1) Drove the car to warm it up. Paid close attention to any pinging. Found the following: a) no pinging while the engine was warming up b) slight pinging when it reached operating temp, which in my case is 180* c) Pinging seemed to be both partial throttle and full throttle. 2) disconnected the copper vacuum tube at the Vacuum advance unit. Then: a) verified that there was no vacuum at idle and general timing was 5* BTC at 350 RPM. b) also verified there was vacuum when the throttle was opened at even a minute amount. c) at 560 RPM with just the centrifugal advance, the timing light showed the engine at the 7.5 mark. at 960 RPM the timing mark advanced off the end of the timing scale which ends at 7.5 degrees 3) then I set the idle for 1000 rpm but it fluctuated between 1000 and 1050. Using the adjustable feature of the timing light I found the advance was 7.5 degrees when bringing the strobe back to the 5 BTC mark. This makes the total reading 12.5 degrees from Top Dead Center, And at 1,100 RPM I had 9.1 degrees of advance over the initial 5 * for a total of 16 degrees with just the mechanical advance. 4) using @EmTees suggestion I took the car out to hit the test hill. This is a steep hill of roughly 300 feet or so. I made a full stop at the bottom and I had pinging on full throttle. Then I stopped half way up and had no pinging on partial throttle going to the top. After a lesson in how to read the total advance chart on page 380 of the 1956 manual, from @KAD36 it appeared the centrifugal advance was okay. 5) reattached the copper tube to the advance. Then I set the fast idle for 1600 RPM. I had 31.2 degrees of added total vacuum. And, then dropped the idle to 1400 RPM and had 22.1 added vacuum. At 1100 had 9.7 and at 560 RPM had 1* degree added vacuum. Based on another conversation with Ken, it was determined that the vacuum advance was also working although a bit less than factory documentation said it should be. Not too bad for a 67 year old part. With the reduced advance there should be less chance of pinging, which would be favorable for my purposes. Also decided the pinging is likely too hot a range of plug ( I installed AC 44's after removing the Champion J-12's) Champions might be better with a J-8 plug, AC 42 is recommended in the manual for an engine running at mainly highway speeds, but Ken said @old-tank convinced him to use Autolite-85's and he likes them. Other possible factors for the pinging might be carbon build up in the cylinders or a tank of questionable quality fuel. I am discounting both of those possibilities because I have run the throttle wide open on a highway run recently and I had no visible smoke from the tailpipes, and this pinging has been happening for several seasons and tanks of fuel, the same fuel I put in all my other cars which seem to run just fine on it. I ordered a set of the Autolite 85's. Supposed to be in tomorrow. I am going to install them and see what happens. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 John if it's any consolation, I run 5* BTDC also because I have pinging on hills above that. It's a factory stock engine. At 5 degrees, there is very slight load pinging like you describe when pulling steep hills. It is very slight and I don't think much of it because it's not knocking and rattling. I believe this to just be the nature of the beast. I run high octane 10% ethanol. I ditched my 56 distributor because my advance plate was overrunning and replaced it with a 65 distributor. I didn't and still do not have access to a distributor machine but was able to verify timing to stock as you have. I run NGK 5858 V-Power plugs with Packard 440 wires. On the subject of spark plug wires, did you verify ohms per length of wire? It doesn't sound like you have a wire issue, but more resistance is more work for the ignition system. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 John, thanks for the summary. Your investigation and observations are exactly what was needed in order to figure out what is happening and narrow the list of possible causes. Clearing the distributor vacuum and centrifugal advance mechanisms is a significant finding. So, it sounds like changing to a cooler plug is advisable based on Ken's experience with his '55. The other possibility that hasn't been eliminated is carbon build-up on the pistons. Given the age and mileage, I'd be amazed if carbon build-up isn't a contributing factor. As I recommended previously, I'd run a couple of tanks of gas with Techron at the maximum specified concentration. I've had good luck with that in the past. If after the plug change light/slight pinging remains, that isn't really cause for concern, as Ben noted above. One last thing to consider would be possibly enriching the secondary carburetor circuit (e.g., power valve or metering rods). I don't know which carberator you have (4GC or WCFB). If the pinging persists, maybe then consider enriching the secondary metering circuit. This is based on your observation that the engine doesn't ping when cold and the choke is active. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 7, 2023 Author Share Posted June 7, 2023 @Beemon I had not considered spark plug wires before now. But I just checked and this set was purchased in 2013. From the install date I have had them insulated from each other where they go under the spark plug covers. They are "Belden Edge premium, 7mm" purchased at the local NAPA with lifetime warranty, although whose lifetime I cannot remember. @EmTee I may wait a day on the spark plugs to see if I can get a borescope to look in the cylinders. And I will try the techron regardless. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 I also never thought to check spark plug wires ohms for pinging thank you @Beemon Bob John I sent you PM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share Posted June 9, 2023 I put the autolite 85's in and it made no difference. Also rechecked my dwell and at 375 RPM it was reading 28°. I did seal the sides of my radiator shroud and with the hood closed the factory 4 blade fan pulled a piece of looseleaf paper firmly against the grill. Before going any further I am going to put some octane booster in today and then try to use this tank of gas up in case this is just a coincidental tank of poor quality fuel. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 What does the octane booster consist of? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 The dwell looks decent, 28-30 deg is typical for a V8 recognizing Buick didn’t specify dwell until like 1957. Higher dwell (less gap) will slightly retard initial timing (before setting it to 5 at the damper by rotating the distributor). Confirm your actual point gap is just under .017 spec max? Wow - your Sears solid state electronic analyzer appears in really good shape compared to the one in my garage…had to retire it and go back to my Heathkit 🤣. After the octane booster to run the tank down what do you think of trying maybe 1/2 tank of premium unleaded? And/or any fuel cleaner for the carb (+1 on EmTees Techron, or perhaps Berrymans?) or air filter checks that might cause a leaner condition under load. Not sure what’s left after that. Compression test? One thing at a time. Thanks for keeping us updated JD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 John, do you ever get that car out on the highway for a couple of hundred miles running 65 to 75 mph? Your trips on the "Raise your hand..." thread seem to be slow and short. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share Posted June 9, 2023 1 hour ago, old-tank said: John, do you ever get that car out on the highway for a couple of hundred miles running 65 to 75 mph? Your trips on the "Raise your hand..." thread seem to be slow and short. No. I don't run it that fast Willie. But I have run it twice this season for more than 100 miles at a time. I prefer 55 to 60 with this car mainly so I can stop quickly if needed. Otherwise it is true my trips are generally short and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share Posted June 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: What does the octane booster consist of? Ben This is what I used but I can't pronounce the ingredients Ben. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 When checking dwell at 28 degrees, did you raise RPM to 1500 to 2000 and see if any variation in dwell, maybe possible worn distributor cam lobe. Bob 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share Posted June 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, NailheadBob said: When checking dwell at 28 degrees, did you raise RPM to 1500 to 2000 and see if any variation in dwell, maybe possible worn distributor cam lobe. Bob Yes. There was no change at higher rpm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 3 hours ago, JohnD1956 said: Otherwise it is true my trips are generally short and slow. Now I'm leaning toward combustion chamber deposits. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, old-tank said: Now I'm leaning toward combustion chamber deposits. And what took you SO long?😁. I agree with your implied suggestion to "burning out the carbon" earlier. An early morning west bound on the toll way/through way at speed limit probably fix things right up. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 Punch it in low out of the starting gate/on ramp and shift into D about 45 mph and get it up to 70, you gotta burn the carbon out - Willie told me once to drive it like I stole it and I still do. Can you possibly film it? How loud is the pinging? If you can't hear it with the radio on low volume it's not a concern. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 12, 2023 Author Share Posted June 12, 2023 This is not Annies year apparently. Saturday I left for our clubs car show and within a mile i noticed it was overheating. The gauge pegged the hot side before I could even turn around, but she made it home and it seemed obvious the thermostat was stuck. Today I got the old one out without breaking anything but then noticed I had been running a 160 stat and not the 180 I thought I had in there, meaning it is running hotter than I think it should. So another pothole is hit in the plan to take it to Spokane. Luckilly the Queen is anxious to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 2 hours ago, JohnD1956 said: seemed obvious the thermostat was stuck. Better close to home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 There's still time. Just need to take things one at a time. Install a 'fail-safe' replacement. https://www.amazon.com/MotoRad-7200-180-Fail-Safe-Thermostat/dp/B000C5CE0W 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 Did not get the fail safe t stat as of yet but drilled a equalizer hole in the new 160 t stat and installed that. The old t stat was stuck and didnt operate as smoothly as this new one. I also cleaned the air filter mesh, although it wasnt really dirty to start with. Then I let it idle on the first step of the fast idle cam (approx 1k RPM) for 20 minutes to observe for leaks and circulation. Another 10 minutes with the cap on for leaks under pressure, and a 25 minute ride. it was 82° and humid yesterday. Still a bit higher than I personally like to see but lower than it has been for the last several years. So far, no runs leaks or errors. A few notes. My tower top clamp would not stop a hose leak early in the process. Then it began to feel like it was going to break. Since I didn't have a clean container to drop the new antifreeze, I slipped on a screw clamp to fix that. This will be fixed shortly. And I used the car this morning, which is much cooler at 61°, and the temp stayed exactly where I expected it to be for a 160 t stat. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 On 6/12/2023 at 4:22 AM, EmTee said: There's still time. Just need to take things one at a time. Install a 'fail-safe' replacement. https://www.amazon.com/MotoRad-7200-180-Fail-Safe-Thermostat/dp/B000C5CE0W These got stuck open for me after shutting the car off in 85 degree weather. I wouldn't dare run one after I had two fail back to back for the same issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Better open then closed, I suppose. The last one I had out I checked in a pot of water on the stove. It tested good, so I put it back in and didn't have to play Russian Roulette with a 'new' one... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 15, 2023 Author Share Posted June 15, 2023 Finally, some positive improvements. Was able to find Sunoco 94 octane with Ethanol, and squeezed 8 gallons into the tank. With a mild temp of 73° it was run on the expressway for 8 miles at around 65 mph. Here is the temp gauge after a red light cycle at the end of the exit ramp. I just left it in drive and at idle which is currently set for 550 RPM. It was 12 miles to get back home from there and when I got home the temp gauge was a little higher than the first picture... but some infared thermometer readings were recorded. This one is with the beam on the t stat cover. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 Did the 94 octane gas improve/eliminate the pinging? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now