White Motor Company 1913 Firetruck engine

[Mindaugas]

Hello everyone,

I have a 1913 White Motor Truck. Originally it has been a police wagon, but was converted to a hose car for Fire Department in 1916, engine was changed too, because I found 1916 stamp on the engine. Maybe somebody could help ant tell me what engine  is it? I cannot find any information about it.

[John Bloom]

Welcome Mindaugas, White Vehicles are all the rage around here since a member bought a 1917 White.  I can't help specifically with your question about your engine, but I expect others will chime in shortly with specifics.  

[oldford]

It looks a lot like a mid teens Studebaker 4. Almost, but not quite. The valves are on the other side...

 

Frank

[Bud Tierney]

There's a EWhite truck group website--classicwhitetrucks.com---but the page comes up blank---there,re lots of White truck people around; you might try other old-truck sites...

A period catalog describe White truck engines by letter designation---GEC, GN, GO8/GR and GR---you might check yours for any such cast, stamped/embossed letters and numbers and add them to your inquiry...

[edinmass]

Ross will chime in and comment. I’m the guy with the 1917 White car. I have only a basic understanding of the trucks..........best guess.........looks like a 1914-1915 White 30 hp engine. So it would either be a car chassis with commercial body, or a half ton truck. Post more photos of the rear end, front end, and over all. Three speed or four? 

Edited February 19, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[oldford]

Ed, you're close. I googled White engines from 1915 down to 1913 and found this photo of a 1913 white speedster with the same engine. 14 and 15 are just a bit different...

 

Frank

 

[edinmass]

Oldford.......problem with any White vehicle is they just did running changes........I have seen no less than four different engines in 1915 White vehicles.........and there were significant in line alterations during the run. Carburetors, magnetos, single or dual plug, transmissions...........when it comes to White........there is almost nothing “black and white”.............everything is more of a gray area. Some car and truck items were used among different platforms.

[Mindaugas]

Thanks a lot for your answers guys! 

I found GEC3885 letters stamped on the engine. 

[Mindaugas]

And this car looked like this when we bought it.

[oldford]

Interesting! Here is a photo of the car that has the engine I used to help identify the engine in the original post.... Bought in Lawton, Iowa. I saw the engine and did not look at the other photos... 😄😄

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by oldford (see edit history)

[Mindaugas]

Oldford, in my opinion it could be the same car

[Bud Tierney]

My period catalogs do a poor job of identifying  which White engine was in particular models, but FWIW, my clearest is a 36 engine parts catalog...

Valves---GEC motor listed in five mpdels for 1919 only; no sharing with other engines...(valve table BEGINS with 1919 models)...

Piston assembly---GEC and GM motors are listed for eight or more models 1919-22, with no way to tell which had which (this table also begins with 1919 models)...

Bearings---GE, GEC motors are listed for four models 1917-20, again no way to differentiate (this table lists models as early as 1912)...

REMEMBER these not complete---parts co's only listed what moved enough to justify stocking, listing...

There appears to've been an engine series---GE, GEB,GEC, GED and GEG are listed, all 41/4 bores...

White used letter designations up into the mid-late 20s, when they switched to numbers: 1A, 2A etc engines...

If no White Gurus chime in here, do try the old-truck sites; tons of Whire information is out there, and this's primarily an auto site......

 

 

 

 

 

 

for

 

[LI_BENTLEY]

The engine is a 45 hp  GEC 4 1/4 X 6 3/8  362 ci.   Three main bearings with ball bearings on ends and Babbitt in center. Used up into early 20s in trucks and cars until 1916.  Very good engine, try to find the original two barrel carb. 

 

[carbking]

The picture indicates the carburetor is missing.

 

Carburetor information on White is very sketchy; but the original for the GEC engine was probably a single barrel updraft rotary throttle carburetor made by White. The S.A.E. flange size would have been a 3 (2 15/16 inch center-center bolt spacing). Finding one of these just might be more difficult than winning an argument with the I.R.S.!!!!

 

However, from a standpoint of getting the engine running; in 1922 Zenith released a special package carburetor for the GEC engine. This was a single barrel updraft plain tube carburetor of type U6, with a 25mm internal main venturi. While not common, these CAN be found if one looks sufficiently hard.

 

The White carburetor pictured by Ed in a different thread had two air inputs, a primary and a secondary. Some folks will call these two-barrel carbs (I personally spent a lot of time looking for documentation on a 4-barrel used on an early Oldsmobile). Turned out to be an over-zealous Olds enthusiast calling the Penberthy (D)ouble (V)enturi a four-barrel because of dual air intakes. Conventionally, the number of barrels are the number connected to the intake manifold.

 

Rotary throttle carburetors have had some discussion on these forums. I personally believe if you use one, it should be on a gasoline truck, with a direct feed from the GASOLINE tank to the gasoline tank!  Stock in Shell Oil wouldn't hurt. Typically, the rotary throttle carbs run very well at wide open throttle, but not nearly so well at anything but wide open throttle.

 

Anyway the Zenith might be a stopgap for you while searching for an original carburetor.

 

EDIT: read additional information from the fine print in this Zenith manual. Zenith showed the GEC engine used from 1914 through 1917; however the U6 carburetor listed above was released ONLY for 1915 though 1917. No replacement was listed for 1914. This manual has installations back to and including the 1911 model year; so must be some reason Zenith did not recommend this carb on the 1914.

 

Jon.

Edited July 3, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[edinmass]

We will have a White factory rotary and a Zenith shoot out soon. Just have been too busy to swap them over on the 1917 16 Valve Four. I’m surprised at the factory unit........works reasonably well from what I expected. Fuel mileage is in the toilet.........and the car has a 28 gallon tank.........the stock unit fires up so fast you would think it’s multi port injected. It’s a bit cold blooded but other than that, for a factory designed 105 year old carb......I’m impressed with it. Of course there is one other good thing about the factory unit.......... you can impress all your friends that is a barrel valve carburetor just like a Winfield racing unit used on the Miller and Offy Indy Cars.........only fifteen years earlier.

Edited July 3, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[LI_BENTLEY]

I have run the White carb on my GEC for 46 years, operates great at all speed ranges starts at all temperaturers.  There was one at Hershey awhile back, went to NJ.   I get 12 to 14 miles to the gallon.  The reason I said two barrel is there are two rotating drum  variable venturies one low speed and one high speed which feed into one manifold just like a 4 barrel carb.