1901 Conrad restoration

[Locomobile]

I thought some of you may enjoy seeing the progress on this ongoing restoration. This is a 1901 Model 65 Conrad steamer originally built in Buffalo, NY. It is the last one known to exist.

 

The body and upholstery is completed and goes on next.

 

 

[lump]

Very cool! Do you have any old illustrations or photos of these cars? 

[Locomobile]

Yes there are only a few known photographs of this particular model, only one of that particular year, they ceased production in 1902.

[1937hd45]

Great looking chassis, look forward to the addition of the body. Please don't take this as a negative observation, but many of the 1900-1902 steamers look the same, did they just copy the early Stanley, or did the Stanly brothers buy axles from the same suppliers? 

[Locomobile]

You're right, they do look similar and there were a frenzy of startups at that time and yes they were all copying off of each other and patents and lawsuits were flying. Coupled with the fact there were only a few coachbuilders like Currier and Cameron in Ames, and they built designs that closely resembled one another. Once studied, the details show they were not all that similar though, from a hundred feet, yes. Similar to cars today. When I was a kid in the 60's my buddies and I used to sit on the side of the road in Dearborn and we could name virtually every car, make model and year, sure couldn't do that now.

As far as I can tell, the car that started this particular design was the 1896 Whitney Motorette built in Boston by George E Whitney, yeah that family (Eli Whitney, Amos Whitney of Pratt& Whitney, lumber barons, industrialists, etc).

[1937hd45]

Funny you should mention the Whitney, Bob Mean here in town had some floor sweepings that he built into a restored car, think he even drove it over to give me a ride. Sure miss him and the other steam guys in the area. Steam was the Stuff back in the 1970's. Bob 

[Joe in Canada]

Nice to see some early steam cars being restored and by the way great looking progress.  

[Steve Moskowitz]

Great job...has me wondering whether we have any info on this car in the library especially now that we have the massive early collection from the Philadelphia library.  Going to check today...

[Locomobile]

20 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Great job...has me wondering whether we have any info on this car in the library especially now that we have the massive early collection from the Philadelphia library.  Going to check today...

Thank you for doing that. Info so far has been sparse.

 

Thanks, Ron

[nzcarnerd]

 Conrad also made gasoline powered cars. From the info in The Standard Catalog it seems they built both at the same time. Some - I don't know how many - of the gas cars were exported to New Zealand. This photo was taken at the Agricultural and Pastoral Show in Christchurch, in November 1903.  I guess that if Henry Ranger ordered more cars after he sold these ones he would have found no reply from the company. Henry Ranger went on to become the local Ford dealer, among other things.

 

 

[1937hd45]

I wonder if those two cars in New Zealand have the same bodies, somewhat like a 1907 Cadillac with a fold away rear seat, one is open the other is closed. Bob 

[nzcarnerd]

12 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I wonder if those two cars in New Zealand have the same bodies, somewhat like a 1907 Cadillac with a fold away rear seat, one is open the other is closed. Bob 

 

Or a tonneau section that could be swapped. I have always thought the Cadillac tonneau didn't fold, but was removeable.  One for the Caddy single experts.

[wayne sheldon]

This early Conrad Steamer looks wonderful! Being early production right on the heels the mostly experimental era of the 1890s, it of course has one of the common general designs that was used by so many early automobiles. During the mostly experimental years, builders usually followed one of two basic protocols, depending upon which of two transportation backgrounds they were more familiar with. People coming out of the longstanding carriage or wagon trades, built high wheel carriage type vehicles. People with more modern bicycle and machining backgrounds would build smaller lightweight vehicles, often with wire wheels.

Carriage trades also were very quick to seize upon the new market of building bodies for the new experimenters. In different parts of the country, certain carriage builders became the go-to for automobile companies. Most of these carriage builders would build bodies for several wannabe automobile manufacturers. Often, automobile manufacturers would order a bunch of bodies, and then quickly go broke before more than a few of the bodies made it onto cars. The carriage builders could then offer a deal to the next manufacturer to use the bodies they got stuck with. One of several reasons why different early automobiles used very similar bodies.

C R Wilson Body Co of Detroit built bodies for both the early Cadillac automobiles and a lot of Ford's first several years of alphabet models (including many of the earliest model Ts). They also supplied a lot of the Curved Dash Oldsmobile bodies. The 1903 Ford and Cadillac bodies are so similar, it takes an expert to tell them apart once separated from their chassis. Wilson also supplied bodies to numerous lesser known automobile manufacturers.

In areas around Ohio and Massachusetts, other companies did similar things providing bodies for fledgling automobile manufacturers in their areas.

 

A story I have told before. Several years ago (about eight years ago I think?), I went to the Bakersfield swap meet, buying parts for a couple brass era model T projects, and looking at so many wonderful other early cars and pieces. I wished so much that I could have had a lot more money to spend. Even if I couldn't have gotten any of the whole nice cars that were there, there were enough pieces of early steam car that a whole car could have been assembled! I don't know what one would call it? "Floor sweepings" seems to be to current popular phrase. So many real correct original pieces appropriate for a 1900 to 1903 steamer were there. One seller had both a front and rear axles, in rough but restorable shape (including a couple original wheels), for if I recall correctly about six or seven hundred dollars. At least one other seller had a decent rear axle, and at least two other sellers had decent front axles. At least two early Locomobile steam engines, and two other nearly identical no-name steam engines were there (prices ranging from two to five thousand depending on condition and how complete they were). Numerous other appropriate needed parts were also there. 

Also there, was a decent original body, solid enough that it should be restored and used. The fellow that had that, also had one of the better engines and a bunch of other parts. I spent a fair amount of time at his booth, just chatting with him about early steam cars. I didn't recognize his name, but he clearly knew a lot about the subject. Among the steam car subjects we talked about (between potential buying customers), was how the bodies were supplied to so many different manufacturers by just a couple carriage trade companies. He showed me several details on the body, telling me why it was not a Locomobile or Stanley body. The location of holes for the tiller, control levers etc. He pointed out trim details, telling various steam cars he knew it was not, and why. He mentioned two that he thought it might be (I have since forgotten, but both I had heard of before). We probably spent the better part of an hour just discussing how the various automobile manufacturers in those days used similar bodies, often by a common source. And, we agreed that someone could easily and with only minor alterations make that body right for an early Locomobile. 

 

I added some numbers in my head that day. I figured that for about seven thousand dollars, one could have a viable early Locomobile steamer project. For about ten thousand, one could have had all the rest of the parts, and the really nice looking Locomobile engine. If I had had the money to spare? I would probably have done that.

 

Additional for nzcarnerd's just now posted. As far as I know, you are correct that the early Cadillac had a removeable tonneau. They may have had a model with a foldable seat that I am not aware of, and I know that after-market sellers sold that option (I have seen one on an early Ford!). There were a few early cars that did have such folding rear seats. The REO one cylinder of about 1907 to maybe 1909 comes to mind. I have seen a couple of those as well as era pictures and advertisements.

[1937hd45]

Here is a video to explain the Cadillac body  I mentioned above. Bob

 

 

1907 Cadillac Model K | Old Car Festival - Bing video

Edited January 5, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

This early Conrad Steamer looks wonderful! Being early production right on the heels the mostly experimental era of the 1890s, it of course has one of the common general designs that was used by so many early automobiles. During the mostly experimental years, builders usually followed one of two basic protocols, depending upon which of two transportation backgrounds they were more familiar with. People coming out of the longstanding carriage or wagon trades, built high wheel carriage type vehicles. People with more modern bicycle and machining backgrounds would build smaller lightweight vehicles, often with wire wheels.

Carriage trades also were very quick to seize upon the new market of building bodies for the new experimenters. In different parts of the country, certain carriage builders became the go-to for automobile companies. Most of these carriage builders would build bodies for several wannabe automobile manufacturers. Often, automobile manufacturers would order a bunch of bodies, and then quickly go broke before more than a few of the bodies made it onto cars. The carriage builders could then offer a deal to the next manufacturer to use the bodies they got stuck with. One of several reasons why different early automobiles used very similar bodies.

C R Wilson Body Co of Detroit built bodies for both the early Cadillac automobiles and a lot of Ford's first several years of alphabet models (including many of the earliest model Ts). They also supplied a lot of the Curved Dash Oldsmobile bodies. The 1903 Ford and Cadillac bodies are so similar, it takes an expert to tell them apart once separated from their chassis. Wilson also supplied bodies to numerous lesser known automobile manufacturers.

In areas around Ohio and Massachusetts, other companies did similar things providing bodies for fledgling automobile manufacturers in their areas.

 

A story I have told before. Several years ago (about eight years ago I think?), I went to the Bakersfield swap meet, buying parts for a couple brass era model T projects, and looking at so many wonderful other early cars and pieces. I wished so much that I could have had a lot more money to spend. Even if I couldn't have gotten any of the whole nice cars that were there, there were enough pieces of early steam car that a whole car could have been assembled! I don't know what one would call it? "Floor sweepings" seems to be to current popular phrase. So many real correct original pieces appropriate for a 1900 to 1903 steamer were there. One seller had both a front and rear axles, in rough but restorable shape (including a couple original wheels), for if I recall correctly about six or seven hundred dollars. At least one other seller had a decent rear axle, and at least two other sellers had decent front axles. At least two early Locomobile steam engines, and two other nearly identical no-name steam engines were there (prices ranging from two to five thousand depending on condition and how complete they were). Numerous other appropriate needed parts were also there. 

Also there, was a decent original body, solid enough that it should be restored and used. The fellow that had that, also had one of the better engines and a bunch of other parts. I spent a fair amount of time at his booth, just chatting with him about early steam cars. I didn't recognize his name, but he clearly knew a lot about the subject. Among the steam car subjects we talked about (between potential buying customers), was how the bodies were supplied to so many different manufacturers by just a couple carriage trade companies. He showed me several details on the body, telling me why it was not a Locomobile or Stanley body. The location of holes for the tiller, control levers etc. He pointed out trim details, telling various steam cars he knew it was not, and why. He mentioned two that he thought it might be (I have since forgotten, but both I had heard of before). We probably spent the better part of an hour just discussing how the various automobile manufacturers in those days used similar bodies, often by a common source. And, we agreed that someone could easily and with only minor alterations make that body right for an early Locomobile. 

 

I added some numbers in my head that day. I figured that for about seven thousand dollars, one could have a viable early Locomobile steamer project. For about ten thousand, one could have had all the rest of the parts, and the really nice looking Locomobile engine. If I had had the money to spare? I would probably have done that.

 

Additional for nzcarnerd's just now posted. As far as I know, you are correct that the early Cadillac had a removeable tonneau. They may have had a model with a foldable seat that I am not aware of, and I know that after-market sellers sold that option (I have seen one on an early Ford!). There were a few early cars that did have such folding rear seats. The REO one cylinder of about 1907 to maybe 1909 comes to mind. I have seen a couple of those as well as era pictures and advertisements.

 

Locomobile produced around 5000 steam vehicles, White produced around 10,000, Stanley about 20,000. There were around 70 different steam car manufacturers, at one period there were more steamers on the road than anything else.

Yes, the bodies from one maker to another look similar from a distance, but that is the only similarity. They are from the ground up totally different and it would be nearly impossible to alter one to be another without major rebuild. I have a steadfast rule that I will not alter/destroy one antique to provide a part for another.

People send me Locomobile pictures to evaluate a prospected purchase or acquisition, I can immediately spot mismatched parts or inaccurate restoration work. I've sort of quit doing it after I told a curator his $120,000 car he just purchased and had shipped to Europe for a museum had the wrong seat on it, guy had a conniption. Beautiful car, wrong seat.

 

Yes there are "sweepings" as you put it around at the swap meets, but do know they'll need to be restored, I have to extensively rework or remake everything. Finding every piece correct for a particular make and year is very unlikely. And for this car its holy grail level availability. Luckily we had and could restore most everything for this car.

 

Yes, for ten k one could get a start on a project. I use the analogy for vehicle restoration, it's like golfing, it's drivin' for show and puttin' for dough, that last little bit is where the money is. For instance for this project, the boiler and burner alone was $9500. The drive block chain from the engine to the rear axle was $900.

 

The old axles and chassis parts floating around were built from what they called "gas pipe". It's a thinwall mild steel tube, about like what they make kids swing sets out of nowadays. If it's rusted at some point, there is likely not much of it left, think bicycle frame. They were furnace brazed just like bicycles which means the only way to get the tubing out of the old frame joints is to bore it out in the lathe or mill, every joint on this chassis had to be bored and new Cromoly tube bent and brazed in. So you see why the old rusty axles aren't worth a whole lot. bicycle manufacturers were heavily involved in the early chassis design. Even the wheels and tires are straight from the bicycle industry. Toledo steamer was a bicycle manufacturer that threw their hat into the automobile ring. 

 

Thanks, Ron

[wayne sheldon]

Thank you Ron/Locomobile, for that information. I think we all know in this hobby that there are top tier restorations and lesser tier restorations, all the way down to stuff that cannot really be considered restorations. It is important for one to know what one has, and be honest about it. The best and the not-so-good all have proper places in the hobby. The real trash usually does more harm than good. This Conrad looks like it is going to be a wonderful gem of a restoration.

You do beautiful work!

[Locomobile]

Wayne, Thank you so much.

 

Just to provide a bit more insight into what I was referencing above and what I was up against with this particular vehicle. This is actually whats left of two same model vehicles, a body and a chassis. One vehicle burned in storage and from that vehicle we were able to salvage the necessary chassis components and it was not easy, Luckily the guy had removed many of the parts and took them in the house as it was going through a restoration, hubs, several other chassis parts that would be impossible to find.  The other was just the body and angle iron subframe that the engine and boiler etc mount to and it was in unusually good shape.

 

This is the chassis as I received it:

 

 

 

 

Then I had to cut it all apart and straighten the joints and bore out all the old tubing.

 

 

Boring out the old tubing, as you can see it's very thin wall. Those nail looking things sticking through the joints are called stakes, those pin the chassis together for the furnace brazing operation and keep it from shifting around in the furnace., again right from the bicycle industry. the stakes are very hard and tear up the boring tools.

 

 

 

 

[Locomobile]

Once all the joints were straightened and bored out new Cromoly tubing was bent and formed for the components.

 

 

then it was aligned staked and brazed up, filed out and painted. good for another 120 years.

 

 

[1937hd45]

Bugatti used that stake and braze system up into the 1930's. The stakes were tapered pins, some times you could drive them out and ream the holes for a larger pin with the replacement tubing. 

Bob 

Edited January 5, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

12 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Bugatti used that stake and braze system up into the 1930's. The stakes were tapered pins, some times you could drive them out and ream the holes for a larger pin with the replacement tubing. 

Bob 

I used 16D spikes (large nails) and rotated them on the sander and tapered them. Then just brazed them in, cut off the excess and blend.

 

Someone told me the FAA specified that type of joint for some tubular airframes or maybe all? versus electronic welding.

 

This is how I do that joint for electronic welding:

 

 

 

 

Ron

[wayne sheldon]

That chassis was in terrible condition! A lot of work to repair it, and you did such a fine and well detailed job of it. 

My early car project is in many ways so much better condition. Someone long before me began a restoration, however, clearly did as much harm as good for it. The basic chassis, suspension and axles were as solid and nice when I got it as they likely were a hundred years earlier. They remade a few parts, indications they had the original pieces to copy, then apparently threw out or lost the original pieces. Their work remaking parts was lousy, so I will need to try to make new pieces using their bad part as a guide. That is if I live long enough to get that far on the project.

 

A question that comes to my mind. There have been discussions among the early Ford registry crowd about the angle iron frames having steel mill markings on the rails. Similar discussions have taken place around other areas of horseless carriages, including some of the high wheel bunch.  Angle iron was manufactured by several iron and steel companies back in those days. Some of them left their names every few feet along the rails. 

Does your angle iron framework have such markings? Not all frames from that era did. For whatever it is worth, my project's angle iron was manufactured by "Cambria". According to Wikipedia and other sources, Cambria iron works was originally founded about 1850. It was reorganized and renamed Cambria Steel Works in the late 1890s. The company was bought out about 1915, and in the early 1920s, absorbed into Bethlehem. Cambria was one of the largest and most innovative iron and steel producers of the late 1800s in America.

 

The biggest problem my project faces, is that it appears to be a one-off. Probably an experimental build that never worked very well, although there are several indications that it did run and was driven some. Much of it is typical of a blacksmith build. It has a good amount of apparently hand hammered hot steel forge work, and some turn of the century purchased pieces. The front axle is a blacksmith altered steel small wagon axle, altered to specifications as published in "Horseless Age" magazine in the 1890s. The steering and suspension (four full elliptic springs) clearly indicate that it was never intended to be horse drawn.

The engine is partially water-cooled gasoline, and very unusual. The closest thing my research found was a motor manufactured by a Canadian company for about two years only. It is unusual, one cylinder built extremely light, yet large enough to have some power. 

The worst thing is, that I do not know who built it. Without knowing for certain who built it, nobody can know for certain exactly when it was built. The parts and methods indicate very early, most likely about 1900. I have hundreds of hours internet research in it myself, and inquiries to a couple antique automotive research sources have been not encouraging. My research has turned up a few possible builders, but no photos are known to exist of the cars. If I can get beyond some family issues, I need to make another run at the research, and begin serious work on the car.

[Locomobile]

Wayne, that is fascinating history. Seems to me this angle iron does have some markings. The joints are black Smith hammered and riveted. The serial number on the chassisis 149. I'm assuming their production numbers were somewhere around a thousand.

 

They were a different type of company, being far away in Buffalo from the epicenter of anything automobile around Boston, Bridgeport etc. They made most of their own parts and even sold parts to upstarts and DIY builders. There are two other steamers that were built with Conrad parts, the Neff steamer, there is one in a museum over in Canada right across from buffalo and a Coffin steamer in a museum in Michigan. I'm about 99% sure on the Coffin. Conrad built delivery trucks and gas engine cars in 1903 and dropped he steamers. they went under in August of 1903. Ransom Olds was kicking everyone's rear with his brilliant little "explosion motor" design.  He built steam cars as well, but I don't think he ever tried to market them.

 

I wish I could help you identifying your engine, I know very little about early gas cars. There were so many people trying to capitalize on the exploding car market, there were many that only produced a few cars as you wrote. Even the picture I posted above with the man and woman he even tried his hand at it.

 

Funny story about that picture above, I was researching Locomobile and ran across it and the story from the Brisbane historical society in Australia, they were calling it a Locomobile and the guy that was driving it copied it and started building and selling steamers in Australia, but it was a fruitless endeavor for him. But it's clearly not a Locomobile and I'm 99% certain it is a 1902 Conrad Model 60 or 65. The draglink runs up the right side to the front right side steering knuckle, the 01 I'm working on the draglink ran from the right side to the left side knuckle. Of the two other known Conrad survivors they are both 02 model 70's. One is in Denmark in a museum, and the other is in Ohio in a museum. The model 70 is a larger car, a dos-a-dos. two bench seats back to back. must have been a warm ride for the people in the back seat.

 

Thanks, Ron