1970s Mercedes-Benz 450SE versus... mid-sized Imperial?

[Mahoning63]

And it was $34,000 in the U.S. in 1981 versus $18,000 for the Imperial. Enough were sold to be seen on the streets and at many Country Clubs. I use to caddy at one, remember them well.

 

Just thought of one other factor that might have held down Imperial sales. They were sold at Chrysler dealerships which meant a prospect would walk in, see the Imperial then see a Chrysler New Yorker priced 10% less and looking rather similar. This was from 1967 on. You guys who were there can help but my understanding is that Cadillac dealers back in the day were sometimes dueled with Oldsmobile. Not an issue prior to 1959 when they did't share similar roofs, Olds being on a shorter body. Had Cadillac dueled with Buick in the Fifties then one could see an issue similar to 1967 and later Imperial/Chrysler.

[Pfeil]

2 minutes ago, padgett said:

Have to remember that in 1970 GM had over 60% of the domestic market and by the late '60s the Gov was talking about monopolies and breaking out car lines. GMs response was to eliminate the divisions (and company) independence by separating divisions responsible for things like carbs, radios, transmissions, HVAC, ignition and starters, & assembly from the individual car lines with a longer term goal to move to "corporate" engines (mostly only happened with small blocks).

The first big push for that was for the 1959 models. That's how the Chevrolet got on the "B" Body. There are many parts of the canopies ( including canopies themselves) that are the same. The next big push was in 1963 when Pontiac and Chevrolet were told to get out of racing ( that's the only reason Chrysler and Ford took over in stock car racing. The next big push was for the 1965 model year when GM pushed for common transmissions especially automatic's and third member ASSY's. 

[WQ59B]

13 minutes ago, padgett said:

...by the late '60s the Gov was talking about monopolies and breaking out car lines. GMs response was to eliminate the divisions (and company) independence by separating divisions responsible for things like carbs, radios, transmissions, HVAC, ignition and starters, & assembly from the individual car lines with a longer term goal to move to "corporate" engines (mostly only happened with small blocks).

 

GM's response to the anti-trust hearings was to divest themselves of Euclid and open their lending practices to outside competition. The car DIvisions remained operating as previously. The working theory was that GM might have to split off Chevrolet; obviously that didn't happen. Components were already handled by other Divisions years & decades earlier, and continued to be built to Divisional spec as before. Any consolidation (which did happen) was for efficiencies of cost, not anti-trust pressure.

[Mahoning63]

4 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

Seems an appropriate spot to ask; if mercedes was unwilling to build relatively attractive/well-fitting bumpers for a major market, should Imperial have engineered a brand new IRS for that same market?

 

I don't know, were the American bumpers of mid-late 70s any better? Corvette did the best by far. Any high end car launched in the Eighties should have taken it to the next level. Yes, Imperial did just that but what they seemed to be after was a more integrated version of the 70s American look, chrome and all, rather than a full rethink. They couldn't get their heads out of the Seventies. But that's exactly what designers and engineers need to do in the car industry, live in a world 5-10 years ahead of everyone else. 

[Pfeil]

7 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

Correct- the generational break on the s-class was MY81 in the U.S., but the pic I posted was a 1980 model.
Daimler did do a nice nosejob on the '81-up car, modernized it by a good 15 years right there (heavy side cladding aside). Still I contend it wasn't until the 1998 redesign that it was truly fully integrated.

 

 

I'm of course aware of the US regs requiring the bumpers be brought up to federal crash-worthiness, but it was mercedes that came up with that 'solution', not anyone else. And it was that solution that was competing with Imperial, not the off-shoire Euro version. If daimler had no intentions of adapting to the US market, why not just pull out? Obviously they set their sights squarely on this market, and made many many changes to better fit in it over time.  The bumper solution wasn't one of them, and the front end was cartoonish and heavily dated as a result.

Seems an appropriate spot to ask; if mercedes was unwilling to build relatively attractive/well-fitting bumpers for a major market, should Imperial have engineered a brand new IRS for that same market?

 

 

All in good time you see. On their timeline not the U.S. government.

 

[WQ59B]

5 minutes ago, Mahoning63 said:

Just thought of one other factor that might have held down Imperial sales. They were sold at Chrysler dealerships which meant a prospect would walk in, see the Imperial then see a Chrysler New Yorker priced 10% less and looking rather similar. This was from 1967 on. You guys who were there can help but my understanding is that Cadillac dealers back in the day were sometimes dueled with Oldsmobile. Not an issue prior to 1959 when they did't share similar roofs, Olds being on a shorter body. Had Cadillac dueled with Buick in the Fifties then one could see an issue similar to 1967 and later Imperial/Chrysler.

GM dealerships have seen all sorts of pairings, both likely and unlikely. I have probably the most extensive list of Pontiac dealers anywhere, currently about 7500 listings, and 'it's all been done before'. 'Pontiac-Chevrolet-AMC-John Deere'? Check. There were plenty of stores that had both Cadillac-Buick, and Cadillac-Olds. It was not an issue, having a Cadillac-esque roof on either an Olds or Buick was a Good Thing for them, but they were still not a Cadillac.

[WQ59B]

9 minutes ago, Mahoning63 said:

Yes, Imperial did just that but what they seemed to be after was a more integrated version of the 70s American look, chrome and all, rather than a full rethink. They couldn't get their heads out of the Seventies.

Take a look at a 1978 New Yorker bumper, and the '80 Imperial bumper again, an tell me it 'wasn't a full rethink'.

[Pfeil]

19 minutes ago, Mahoning63 said:

 

I don't know, were the American bumpers of mid-late 70s any better? Corvette did the best by far. Any high end car launched in the Eighties should have taken it to the next level. Yes, Imperial did just that but what they seemed to be after was a more integrated version of the 70s American look, chrome and all, rather than a full rethink. They couldn't get their heads out of the Seventies. But that's exactly what designers and engineers need to do in the car industry, live in a world 5-10 years ahead of everyone else. 

 

Yes they were. They were cumbersome to design around but they worked.

Back in 1978 some woman playing tag with her boyfriend on the way to work with their two cars in and out of traffic slid in-between me and the car in front of me just as the light in the intersection we were approaching turned red. I had no room to stop from hitting her Toyota. My front bumper hit her squarely and the shocks on that 5 mph bumper did it's job. While we were exchanging information the bumper suddenly all by itself popped back out, a few minutes later the police arrived and the officer said to me what are you doing here/ I told him what happened and he said he would have never guessed your Oldsmobile looks fine.

This is my Olds and that all original paint, chrome, interior.  You should have seen the Toyota.

  

[WQ59B]

I believe the point of discussion was design, not protection.

[Mahoning63]

1 hour ago, WQ59B said:

Take a look at a 1978 New Yorker bumper, and the '80 Imperial bumper again, an tell me it 'wasn't a full rethink'.

It's a full rethink as I acknowledged. The difference between it and the '81 S-Class is that it still visually says "bumper" in its shape, chrome applique and black protective cover whereas the M-B is designed to look like a continuation of another fresh element, the lower body cladding. The result are bumpers front and rear that are now seen as part of the car's lower body.

 

Now you got me interested in the Imperial, want to drive it.

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, WQ59B said:

I believe the point of discussion was design, not protection.

And what was the first thing I said? " They were cumbersome to design around but they worked"  And I'll add they worked well!

[padgett]

Yes by 1980 GM was integrating bumpers ?

[Ed Luddy]

Having owned both a 1973 Imperial and a later model 76 Benz 450 S I still prefer the Imperial. My current 07 Benz E350 is still no match for the big Imperial other than fuel mileage!

[WQ59B]

^ The mercedes design language, while finally contemporary vs. a huge swath of its history, lost all elements of being imposing, distinctive, commanding, special or aspirational. As bland as I personally feel the post-'68 Impys were, they still make the mercedes an invisible appliance.

[padgett]

Well there was a recent time what Mercedes were trying to look like Fords.

[Pfeil]

5 hours ago, padgett said:

Yes by 1980 GM was integrating bumpers ?

 

Great body style and good driving car, then the HT4100 happened.

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

7 hours ago, padgett said:

Yes by 1980 GM was integrating bumpers ?

 

Still far from good enough to make them not appear as an afterthought.

 

It took another ten years to make them looked like they belonged on the car, not to mention, exterior fit & finish improved quite a bit by 1990, which by then, this body style had finally run its course.   The interior was still a letdown with all that plastic trim textured and colored to look like it was made of wood, and rear windows that barely lowered halfway.  The new-for-1990 Lexus LS400 should have been a wake-up call for Cadillac Motor Division.

 

Craig

Edited November 19, 2019 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

For better or worse, M-B started a lower body cladding trend still with us today, unless there was another car before it.

 

The 1975 GM small cars (Skyhawk, Starfire et al) had fairly clean bumper designs. Impressive given the industry was only a few years into the new regs, which did soften in the early 80s. Pfeil's beautiful Olds sedan really was one tough cookie in front and back and those '75 Vega-based cars proved the regs could be worked with from a design perspective if lots of deformable plastic.

 

Curious what an '81 Imperial sedan might have looked like, I shortened an Imperial limo to effectively add 6 inches of rear legroom to the coupe.

 

Also tried a version with front wheels moved forward 4 inches and skirts added to make the slanting upper body element whole. They could have also exposed the headlights. The car would have been roughly same length and wheelbase as DeVille and around 3 inches shorter, narrower and lower, making it the sport sedan of the U.S. luxury car fleet. And... if IRS had been included the car could have occupied a middle ground between Cadillac and Mercedes S-Class that might have resonated with enough folks to make the business case work. The soft ride had to go, replaced by a new type of ride that gave a greatly increased sense of security vs Cadillac when driving on challenges roads and just driving in general. Clearly the development cost would have been greatly increased, driving pricing well into the $20's, but the car's legitimacy might have convinced the market to take it seriously.

 

Here's a good link to '81 Imperial design development. One of the early proposals had skirts.

 

http://www.imperialclub.com/~imperialclub/Articles/06Hemmings3/index.htm

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

10 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Still far from good enough to make them not appear as an afterthought.

 

It took another ten years to make them looked like they belonged on the car, not to mention, exterior fit & finish improved quite a bit by 1990, which by then, this body style had finally run its course.   The interior was still a letdown with all that plastic trim textured and colored to look like it was made of wood, and rear windows that barely lowered halfway.  The new-for-1990 Lexus LS400 should have been a wake-up call for Cadillac Motor Division.

 

Craig

 

Yes, but by that time they were Chevy's.

[58L-Y8]

An addendum to the sales figures, 1960 should have an asterisk * since it was the first major restyle after 1957. Doing so had no affect to improve sales to any degree.

 

"What level of annual Imperial sales should have been satisfactory for management?"

 

Once the turmoil of the late 1950’s market recovered from the recession and spike of compact car interest, it would have been reasonable to expect Imperial sales to track at around two-thirds of Lincoln volumes fairly consistently throughout the 1960’s. That would have been modest but seemingly doable.

 

Challenging the grip Cadillac had on the luxury segment was a tall order, one even FoMoCo had setbacks navigating. A major factor that developed helping to build sales momentum as Cadillac relentlessly pursued segment domination was resale value retention. Although it wasn’t the only factor in a buying decision, it weighed heavily for many in the higher-price brackets.

 

1960 Luxury Car Resale Values in 1963: Factory Delivered Price versus Average Retail

Cadillac Sedan de Ville: $5,498; $2,865

Lincoln Premiere: $5,945; $2,125

Imperial Crown: $5,557; $2,350

 

1966 Luxury Car Resale Values in 1969: Factory Delivered Price versus Average Retail

Cadillac Sedan de Ville: $5,581; $3,050

Lincoln Continental: $5,750; $2,425

Imperial Crown: $5,733; $2,360

 

Sources: N.A.D.A Used Car Guides for April-May 1963 and July 1969

 

Even if a current Cadillac wasn’t as appealing, it made more economic sense to continue with the marque than to switch to either Lincoln or Imperial.

[bryankazmer]

good point on Cadillac resale.  For new cars ordered instead of selected from stock, the local dealer in the 1960's often had the trade-in sold before the customer's new car arrived. 

[padgett]

"M-B started a lower body cladding trend still with us today" 1993 A124 ? Pontiac used cladding on the Trans Port concept (1986) and production (1989)

 

I like "luxury" 2-doors, they often depreciate really fast.

[8E45E]

1965 Pontiac Bonneville's had shiny aluminum body cladding below the lower swage line.

 

Craig

[Mahoning63]

1957 and 58 Cadillac 60 Special helped hit there Harley Earl chrome poundage requirement by putting it low on the rear quarters.

 

'81 M-B S-Class is the first plastic cladding I can think of.

[Mahoning63]

'79 Omni 024 used black paint on lower body, visually married to bumpers.

 

Edit: also '79 Mustang Cobra. Earlier Mustangs moving in that direction.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[padgett]

"'81 M-B S-Class is the first plastic cladding"

Pontiacs I mentioned had plastic cladding in the late '80s.

 

 

[bryankazmer]

Pontiac Grand Am used prominent contrasting plastic cladding in the mid eighties, as did the Chrysler Laser.  Citroen used colored plastic fascia without painting in the early eighties.  The cladding look is very prominent in the 55-56 senior Packards.

[Mahoning63]

Circling back to the original '71 Imperial proposal - loved by a few, hated by a few, nothing for the rest - have tried to create continuity to the '81 design, which itself would have needed pulled ahead to a 1979 launch, '78 being the last year for the '71 design that followed the Dodge/Plymouth cycle. For the '79 Imperial proposal, which itself would have run for 8 years just like the previous car and the Seventies M-B S-Class, I have kept the sharp-edged theme and for cost savings, the stock axle-dash length. 

 

Eliminated are the:

- tall vertical grill, now a lower hood flowing into, again, a horizontal array of grill mesh with hidden lights

- long front overhang, now 4 inches shorter to give the car better visual balance front to rear

- Rolls-Royce deck theme, now continuous body sides

- wrapped taillights, now separate side lights behind rear bumpers to give rear quarters a clean rear edge just like up front

- open rear wheel cutouts, now skirts though they still show some leg

 

The car starts looking like an early 90's Cadillac STS or a '76 Aston Martin Lagonda. What I like most about it is that the surfaces are clean and  continuous in the fine tradition of Engel.

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Exports would be stepped up because of the car's smaller size vs outgoing and a fuel-injected Six probably would have been needed for the European market. IRS for all markets.

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

1965 Pontiac Bonneville's had shiny aluminum body cladding below the lower swage line.

 

Craig

 

So are the 64 Bonneville's ;

and 66Bonneville and Plus G/P;

And 67 GTO;

 

 

[WQ59B]

4 hours ago, 8E45E said:

1965 Pontiac Bonneville's had shiny aluminum body cladding below the lower swage line.

Craig- that's not 'cladding', it's trimwork.
The cheap mercedes blow-molded plastic was in the neighborhood of an inch thick.

Edited November 19, 2019 by WQ59B (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

Not blow molded and not terribly cheap as it was painted off-line afterwards.

 

"Cladding" typically projects out from the body further as you say, and extends above the rockers onto the doors.

The Pontiacs' would typically be called "rocker trim," although they are on the doors a little.

 

 

[Pfeil]

15 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

Craig- that's not 'cladding', it's trimwork.
The cheap mercedes blow-molded plastic was in the neighborhood of an inch thick.

 Yes , but Pontiac's molding was different than the normal rocker molding simply because this molding also attached to the doors and raised high on the panels. So if it isn't just rocker molding what is it? The Pontiac's include rocker molding, panel molding and body side molding for one assembled look. Mercedes include rocker, panel molding and a body side molding at the top on some models. As time went on cost of stainless and the composition of plastic's and their durability come into play. Either way ( plastic or stainless) it's a darn good way of protecting the side of the body from stone chip paint damage.  

[8E45E]

Its still "cladding" as it's physically attached to the lower body panels, and thereby conceals a sizeable portion of it, regardless what material it's made of.

 

Craig

[Pfeil]

5 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Its still "cladding" as it's physically attached to the lower body panels, and thereby conceals a sizeable portion of it, regardless what material it's made of.

 

Craig

 

You just try and look up the word Cladding in a Mercedes , Pontiac Or Seville parts book OR body manual!

[padgett]

It's cladding you want ?

 

[WQ59B]

4 hours ago, Pfeil said:

 Either way ( plastic or stainless) it's a darn good way of protecting the side of the body from stone chip paint damage.  

It probably does perform that function, but if that's legitimate, why was it all deleted years ago (at MB)??  No more stones out on roads anywhere?  And remember when mercedes explained how the deep horizontal ribs on their taillights were engineered to shed dirt better in the rain?  Also long gone.  It's just marketing spin. Unquestionably; heavy side cladding was merely a styling element.  And IMO, if it projects outward, and noticeably changes what could easily be a continuation of the sides of the vehicle that appear above it, it's 'cladding'.

 

Holy hell : 

Edited November 20, 2019 by WQ59B (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

Cladding is a hardware store term. That's what a clever parts manager would tell you to go if you asked for it.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

it's also the term the OEM's and their suppliers used

[Pfeil]

2 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

it's also the term the OEM's and their suppliers used

 

I know, I know, silly term isn't it?