Northway Engine Works

[aqh]

Does anyone have any information on Northway Engine Works? I have reason to believe that the company was once part of GM and their 6 cylinder engines were put in Scripps-Booth, Oakland, Oldsmobile, and some GM trucks.(1916-1923) However, I have not been able to find any reference to this as a fact in any source. Olds refers to the Northway V8 but never the Northway 6.

Thanks in advance.

aqh

[Restorer32]

My early Dykes Manual lists Scripps-Booth for 1920 as having a 6 cylinder Northway Engine. Only listing for a Northway 6 among more than 150 cars.

[Guest BruceW]

Reference of Oakland use of Northway is included in the following reference:

http://yourpage.blazenet.net/keimpjad/oakland.htm

"The Oakland was the brainchild of A.P. Brush, designer for Cadillac and Brush Motorcars. It featured a planetary transmission and sold for $1,300. General

Motors took Oakland under its wing in 1909. In 1915, the first left-hand drive models appeared, along with a larger Northway engine. 1916 was the first time the company used its own engine, an ohv 6-cylinder model. "

Also the following URL

http://www.roaring-twenties.com/roaring_twenties_antique_car_museum_39.htm:

"Oakland was the 6th largest producer until the early 1920s when production was held up due to engineering problems. The company never fully recovered its market share. Oakland is noted for using the Northway engine. It made some very nice Roadster and Touring Cars but was not a large producer in the 1920s."

[Guest]

agh,

I have heard the same information, but have been unable to verify it.

Supposedly either my '20 or '22 Oakland (Not sure which, engines are different) has a Northway 6.

I would be interested in information also.

cj

[Guest c.johnson]

oops, forgot to login.

cj

[Guest]

Also interested on information for my 1918 Oldsmobile 6-cylinder---Arnold; please keep me posted if I miss any responses----Thanks------Had 5 inches of snow in New Hampshire this morning-----Time for FLORIDA-------Would be interested in purchasing complete 6 cylinder engine and tranny------------------------Regards---- SKY svbnh@aol.com

[Steve Moskowitz]

Arnold and Sky, the Oldsmobile Model 37 definitely had an engine produced for Olds by Northway. Around '85 when I resrtored my roadster I found documentation to this fact but gave everything (i think) with the car when I sold it. It now belongs to GM but I will try to find the info. Steve

[Guest]

Northway was once the engine manufacturing division of General Motors. This GM built engine, which was source from GM?s Inter Company Parts Division, originated at the Detroit headquartered Northway Motor and Manufacturing Division. It was well known in the trade that Northway had been the sole suppler of engines for a number of years to Oakland, Oldsmobile, and GMC Truck.

The Northway company was purchased by WC Durant for the growing General Motors Company in 1909. A few years later, it was reported for the year 1912, that Northway was making 11,000 engines a year. Oakland was then the largest single customer with buying 5000 engines, with the rest of Northway?s production spread among twelve other car and truck assemblers. By the early Twenties, because of growth volume and a lack of design control, both Oakland and Oldsmobile moved away from outsourcing their engines, and begun to build their own engines in house in Pontiac and Lansing. In the end, the Northway engine was known only as a truck engine, with GMC Truck becoming its only customer. In mid 1925, the once proud Northway Motor and Manufacturing Division was transferred out from under the Inter Company Parts Group to direct operation and control under the GM Truck Division. But this was short lived, because after Yellow Truck and Coach Manufacturing Company purchased and acquired the GM Truck Division in September 1925, the Northway division was quietly disbanded and discontinued. By March 1926, the Northway property in Detroit, which was by then called GM truck Plant No. 7, was purchased by Chevrolet Motor Division for the manufacture of front and rear axles and parts for past model Chevrolets.

The Northway Model 110 engine was a 6 cyl, OHV, with a 2.81 x 4.75 bore and stroke for 177 CID that was used in the 1916-19 OAKLAND 6, 1917-19 Oldsmobile 6 and 1918-1919 SCRIPPS-BOOTH 6. The improved Northway Model 111 engine was then used on the 1920-23 Oakland, 1920-23 Oldsmobile 6, and the 1920-21 Scripps-Booth Model B.

Ken Kaufmann

scrippsbooth@earthlink.net

[Guest c.johnson]

WOW!! The most information I've seen in 4 years of research.

Thanks Ken!!!

[Guest]

---To Ken Kaufmann

Many thanks for all the information. It is greatly appreciated-

SKY-1918 Oldsmobile--Model 37 6 cyl svbnh@aol.com

[Restorer32]

Coincidentally I was paging thru a program for the 12th National Automobile Show at Madison Sguare Garden in 1912 and came across an ad for Northway Motor & Mfg. C., Motors-Clutches-Transmissions and Unit Power Plants. Their display was in Space No. 319.

[aqh]

Ken,

Thanks for the information. I believe I read some of this information you posted on the Scripps-Booth site. I am happy to know that I have a GM (Northway)engine in my oldsmobile.

[Guest]

Wow!! This means the 29 Oakland I am looking at cannot have an 8 cyl Northway engine, as stated by the owner.

Forgot to login....

Dan

[Guest c.johnson]

Dan,

Most of what has been said is about earlier Oakland engines. After 1925, Oakland re-introduced an 8 cy (available in the 'teens.) My theory is that an 8cy was necessary to compete with it's own - Pontiac, that had an 6cy until the Oakland name was disbanded.

I believe most Oaklands for the later years did have an 8 cy. A rare find would be a '29 or '30 Pontiac with an 8cy.

But I could be wrong,

cj

[Guest c.johnson]

Dan,

Ok, I mis-read your post. I think I understand what you are saying now. It probably is not a Northway engine, because Oakland stopped getting Northway engines in the late '20's.

cj

[Guest Steve Jansen]

Im the proud owner of both a 1918 Olds. series 37, and a 1918 Oakland touring. Two questions, first both of these cars have northway engines but the Oakland has open valve assy. and the Olds are covered. The oakland mounted the dist. on the side of the block, awile the Olds was relocated on top of the generator to make room for the inclosed side panels. Other than these changes both engines look idenical. Does anyone know what year Northway made this change? I just want to know if both of these engines are correct for this year. Second, The Oakland just had her first mishap and the fan pulley twisted off the end of the water pump shaft. both the shaft and pully are distroyed. Any one out there have these parts?

[Guest c.johnson]

Ok here I am stuck on this post again. I now have a '17, a '20, and a '22 Oakland. The '17 had the distributor mounted on the generator like the Olds, and probably the Scripps of that same time.

Some where between the '17 and '20, they mounted the distributor on the engine block - just a thought, but probably about the same time they added the oil pump since (together the 2 would make an assembly of sorts being connected by the oil pump shaft), probably late 1918 or early 1919 I believe.

The engine for your '18 Oakland sounds correct, as I have seen engines of both types for the same year.

Interestingly enough, the engine for the '22 is a Saganaw engine, and has the rockers covered. I have no definitave idea why the change, but interesting point is that many of the engine parts are the same as earlier "Northway" engines.

Wish I could help with parts, but I will keep my eyes open for you..

cj

[Guest Steve Jansen]

cj. Thanks for the info. and sorry you got stuck again. I think the olds has the correct engine as the numbers match, but have not located the body numbers for the Oakland. Looks like the Olds used the same block casting as the Oakland as the the dist. hole is still there but plugged. Both seem to have oil pumps. The Olds runs about 25lbs. on the road but the Oakland only about 15. At idle both are at 5-10. Of course this reading is with the orign. dashboard gages so either gage could be off. What should the proper pressure be? Thanks, Steve

[nickelroadster]

I have seen several different Northway engines that had many of the same design features. My 4 cylinder ohv 1915 Olds shares such features as a timing cover, an oil tank, water pump and fan with such cars as a 1912-1915 Cole and a car made in Richmond Indiana called a Wescott. Does anyone know whether Oakland used this 4 cylinder also? The engines in all these cars are different (ohv, flathead and thead respectively) but they seemed like you could get whatever engine you wanted. 1916 to 1923 Oldsmobile v8s were made both by Olds and Northway. I have always been curious about the history of Northway but information seems to be pretty scarce.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Wasn't the 4-6-8 Cadillac engine of recent vintage called a Northway? Is that what sparked this thread?

[Guest noncompos]

NICKLER: FWIW, a 1930 McCord catalog shows:

Olds 4cyl #42, #43 1914-16, with a Northway #45, a 31/2x5...

Oakland 4Cyl #35 thru #38, 1914-16, with a Northway #52, also a 31/2x5, but taking a considerably different head gasket...

That catalog contains some "Used On" listings:

#45 only lists the Olds #42,43

#52 is lumped in with #54, with which it shares the two gaskets listed, shows date of 1914-15, lists Jackson, Keeton, Oakland, Patterson (Paterson) and Westcott. That catalog shows #52 for all except Keeton, which isn't listed.

Std cat lists Keeton 1912-14, shows a 22HP 4 and a 6 for 1912-13, but text doesn't ID engines.

Free item: the #45 takes McCord #2 and the #52 takes McCord #4...

Remember parts catalogs are not always highly reliable (especially as to "used on') and are never complete.

[Guest Oracle]

Ken originally wrote this text for the VCCA magazine and listed numerous applications:

IT WAS A SAGINAW ENGINE!

Keith Marvin, in his “Samson’s Car-And-Truck Idea” story in OLD CARS for January 4, 1996, was incorrect in claiming the Samson car engine, as well as the Chevrolet FB and Oldsmobile 43A engines, “was manufactured by Northway.” This is an old wife’s tale, often repeated in contemporary Chevrolet histories, for over the past thirty years.

It was Doug Bell, noted Chevrolet historian and first president of the VCCA (Vintage Chevrolet Club of America), whom first made this mistake, when he wrote in the VCCA club magazine in April 1964 that the Chevrolet FB and Oldsmobile 43A used a Northway engine. Doug reasoned, since Northway was once the engine manufacturing division of General Motors, this GM built engine, which was source from GM’s Inter Company Parts Division, originated at the Detroit headquartered Northway Motor and Manufacturing Division. At least, it was well known, that Northway had been the sole suppler of engines for a number of years to Oakland, Oldsmobile, and GMC Truck. However, what has been forgotten, was the Inter Company Parts Division operated another engine plant between 1919 and 1923 in Saginaw, Michigan at the former GM Marquette plant. More on this Saginaw built engine later, but first, let’s take a closer look at Northway and what engines were actually manufactured by this Detroit based, General Motors company.

Northway was purchased by WC Durant for the growing General Motors Company in 1909. A few years later, it was reported for the year 1912, that Northway was making 11,000 engines a year. Oakland was then the largest single customer with buying 5000 engines, with the rest of Northway’s production spread among twelve other car and truck assemblers. By the early Twenties, because of growth volume and a lack of design control, both Oakland and Oldsmobile moved away from outsourcing their engines, and begun to build their own engines in house in Pontiac and Lansing. So even 75 years ago, GM had to worry about the market resistance to badge engineering and the lack of brand identification. In the end, the Northway engine was known only as a truck engine, with GMC Truck becoming its only customer. In mid 1925, the once proud Northway Motor and Manufacturing Division was transferred out from under the Inter Company Parts Group to direct operation and control under the GM Truck Division. But this was short lived, because after Yellow Truck and Coach Manufacturing Company purchased and acquired the GM Truck Division in September 1925, the Northway division was quietly disbanded and discontinued. By March 1926, the Northway property in Detroit, which was by then called GM truck Plant No. 7, was purchased by Chevrolet Motor Division for the manufacture of front and rear axles and parts for past model Chevrolets.

SAGINAW MOTOR PLANT

General Motors reactivated in 1917, its former Marquette plant in Saginaw (the Marquette was discontinued by GM in 1912), that was original acquired in 1908 when Durant purchased the Rainier Motor Company. GM then used this modern factory to manufacture trent-mortor shells for the US Ordinance Corps during the first World War. At the end of this war, it was decided to keep this Saginaw plant open and retool it to manufacture engines for Chevrolet and various GM cars and trucks for 1919. The Chevrolet FB engine, that up to this time had been built in Flint along side the smaller Four-Ninety engine, was probably picked because this long stroke engine had an excellent reputation. It allowed the Chevrolet Motor Plant in Flint to increase its production of the standard Four-Ninety engine to satisfy the post war sales expansion. General Motors already had a Crankshaft Division located in Saginaw, which it had purchase a few years before from the old line Saginaw concern of National Engineering Company. To manage these in-house Saginaw companies, the Saginaw Products Company was formed under GM’s Inter Company Parts Division in 1919.

To further support this Saginaw engine building effort, GM’s Saginaw Product Company (SPC) built a new Grey Iron Foundry during 1919 to supply the raw engine block, cylinder heads, and miscellaneous engine castings, that up to this time was purchase from outside vendors. The new SPC Grey Iron Foundry had enough extra capacity to also supply block and head castings for the Four-Ninety and Superior engines to Chevrolet’s Flint Motor Plant.

SPC CLOVERLEAF

What is interesting, I have seen many Chevrolet blocks and heads from the early Twenties up to mid-1927 that have the SPC cloverleaf casting symbol mark in the cast iron component. This three leaf clover has each letter of “SPC” cast within each of the three leaves. I have seen an early FB block with the serial number 11800 that must have been built in Flint in early 1919. It has no date code or “SPC cloverleaf,” but the block casting part number is 43950-1. I have a 1921 Oldsmobile 43A engine, that has a date code of 8-16-20, with the casting part number the same 43950-3, with the change level being a “3." This engine has serial number 15768, with a small, stamped, cloverleaf following the serial number. I would guess this cloverleaf after the serial number would identify this engine as being source from the Saginaw Motor Plant. It is not known if all the Saginaw built engines were consecutively serial numbered, or had separate numbering sequence for Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, or the other GM divisions?

The Saginaw Motor Plant, as it was called, covered 25 acres, and was credited by Arthur Pound in THE TURNING WHEEL with manufacturing over 130,000 ‘FB’ type engines between 1919 and 1923 for the 1919-22 Chevrolet FB and One-Ton T Truck, 1919-23 Oldsmobile One-Ton Truck and Model 43A, 1920 Sheridan, and the Sampson car and 1 1/4 Ton Truck. To give Chevrolet more manufacturing control, since Chevrolet was SPC largest customer, the Grey Iron Foundry was turned over to Chevrolet in September 1927, and was renamed the Chevrolet Grey Iron Foundry.

The Saginaw Product Company, later became know as the Saginaw Product Division, was phased out during 1928 when the last manufacturing component companies were renamed the Saginaw Crankshaft Division and Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM Corps. A few years later the Crankshaft Division was also disbanded as crankshaft manufacturing was turned over to the car divisions.

[Guest Oracle]

APPLICATION

OAKLAND 48-49

COLE 6-60

JACKSON 48

PATERSON 48

WESTCOTT U-50

OLDSMOBILE 42-43

OAKLAND 35-36-37-38

CARTER CAR 7-9

JACKSON 34

KEETON FOUR

PATERSON 32

WESCOTT O-30, O-35

CRESCENT

VIM 21-26-30

SAMPSON SLEEVE GRIP 15/30

SAMPSON MODEL M

GMC TRUCK 3/4 - 1 TON

GMC TRUCK 2 - 2 1/2 TON

GMC TRUCK 3 1/2 - 5 TON

GMC TRUCK K72B-K102B

NORTHWAY TRUCK

NORTHWAY TRUCK

NORTHWAY TRUCK

NORTHWAY TRUCK

OAKLAND 6

OLDSMOBILE 6

SCRIPPS-BOOTH 6

McLAUGHLIN SMALL SIX

OLDSMOBILE 44

JACKSON S48

OLDSMOBILE 45-45A/B-46

JACKSON 68

COLE 850-900

OAKLAND 50

[Guest c.johnson]

WOW!! A lot of information!

Steve, Not a problem, I don't mind adding my very limited knowlege to the group.

I have a Dykes that showed different oil pressure for Oakland & Olds - 20 for the Oak & 25 for the Olds - I though it was a fluke. I believe that must be running pressure. It probably must be different gear ratio or something, but no idea about the logic behind the difference.

Body numbers on the Oakland are hard to find - I have come to decide a lot must have fallen off over the years. Early ones were on the toe board or firewall, my '20 & '22 are on a tag on the frame just above the passenger side rear axle.

Check out the book "75 years of Pontiac & Oakland" from the local library (don't buy the book, it is out of print and about $100.00) It can give you production numbers, and locations on body numbers and a lot of other information I have probably forgotten. But I will tell you from my personal experience, that the well intentioned writer made a few errors when it comes to the Oakland.

[hugh.venables]

Dan,

Most of what has been said is about earlier Oakland engines. After 1925, Oakland re-introduced an 8 cy (available in the 'teens.) My theory is that an 8cy was necessary to compete with it's own - Pontiac, that had an 6cy until the Oakland name was disbanded.

I believe most Oaklands for the later years did have an 8 cy. A rare find would be a '29 or '30 Pontiac with an 8cy.

But I could be wrong,

cj

What a very informative thread. But only about the 6 cyl. Did Northway make the V8 for the 1916-17 Oakland model 50? Who made the Chev and Olds V8s at about the same time? I think these three engines were all very different.

Oakland didn't reintroduce a V8 until 1930. All 1930 and 1931 Oaklands used this fascinating engine. It was not the same as Oldsmobile's Viking engine. What would have been a 1932 Oakland was rebadged as a Pontiac V8 when the Oakland name was dropped at the start of 1932.

Hugh Venables, Melbourne, Australia

1930-32 Oakland Pontiac V8 enthusiast

Edited August 1, 2011 by hugh.venables
Add signature (see edit history)

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Hugh,

I believe the 1917-18 Chevrolet V-8 was a Northway product.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Wasn't the 4-6-8 Cadillac engine of recent vintage called a Northway? Is that what sparked this thread?

The recent (circa 2000 ) hi-tech Caddy V-8 was called the Northstar.

The V-8-6-4 from the late 1970's -early 1980's was called lots of things, I'm sure... none of them suitable for repeating here...

[Guest Oracle]

The Model D V-8 engine was built in Chevrolet's Bay City plant. It was also exported to Canada for use in the few Model Ds assembled in Oshawa.

Did Northway make the V8 for the 1916-17 Oakland model 50? Who made the Chev and Olds V8s at about the same time?

Ken has it that the Oakland Model 50 had the Northway model 311 engine and the Olds 45/45A, 45B, 46 had the model 209 Northway engine.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Oracle (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

I have seen some references to Northway building some of Cadillac's v8s. They were building Cole and Oldsmobile v8s at the same time. Oracle, do you have any more information on the particular numbers of Northway engines that went into individual cars. Northway seemed to have built a larger variety of engines than almost any other engine manufacturer. I know that Oldsmobile actually designed their v8 and made a fair number of them themselves.

[Guest cben09]

Details to confirm,,,

Northway built an early engine,,1cyl,,sideshaft,,similar to 1cyl Caddy,,around 1902,,

Bert Northway lived in Boothbay Maine,,

Part of family still there //1970

Natick Mass National Guard armory built as plant to assemble/build Northway engines,,

25dollar [[$,,??]] stock cert,were sold locally around 1920-25,? Had one once,,All for now,,Ben

[Guest Dick Whittington]

Wasn't the 4-6-8 Cadillac engine of recent vintage called a Northway? Is that what sparked this thread?

NorthStar

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Thanks to Frank and Dick for answering my question

[Guest noncompos]

I didn't try to make up a Northway engine list until I found the SAMSON (Not Sampson) model "M" tractor used an unidentified Northway, and then quickly found there was very little Northway info available, as opposed to engine builders like Buda, Cont etal.

While I kept very little car engine info, some of my old catalogs do ID car engines, but even when naming Northway seldom give the model #s.

And what info given is sometimes ambiguous/confusing, like:

Northway #80: GMC, 4cyl, Ser K 15-16, 3/4 and 1T prior to 1923 31/2x51/2;

Northway #80: GMC, 4cyl, Ser K-15-16-17-32, 3/4, 1, 2T 1923-27 39/16x6 AND 31/2x51/2 (1930 McCord gasket catalog). This's NOT a typo as the #84 and #88 also have pre and after 23 versions, alth on them the b/s stays the same.

Ralph Northway's trucks (21/2 and 31/2T models 1918-22) used an unidentified OHV 4 built "in house" (per Mroz) but other than the "M" Samson, it, and the GMCs, I've found no identified Northway in a truck or tractor, but hasten to admit my sources (old parts catalogs primarily) are far from complete.

What engine list I have shows model numbers 30A, 37, 45, 52, 53, 54, 68, 80, 84, 88, 89, 107, 110, C-110, 111, D-111, BD-111, 208, 209, 308, 309, 310, 311 and the unidentified Samson "M" engine, which may or may not be one of the above.

If anyone knows of an existing engine list I'd appreciate advice. Bud

[Guest Steve Jansen]

Going back two pages of posts my orign question was, i have a 1918 Olds, and a 1918 Oakland. I have the orign 1917-18 parts manual for the Olds. This car does have a 6cyl. Northway engine. It shows the inclosed valve train complete with part #'s for the covers. It also shows the dist mounted on the generator. Question was why does my 1918 Oakland have a open valve train? Thanks to c.j. as he came the closest to an answer. Since the Olds parts manual shows this modif. the same in both years. Oakland must have had alot of pre. 1917 engines left in stock and continued using them into 1918 and then changed some time in the mid 1918 model year which is why you find both types for 1918. Remember this is about the 6cyl. I don't know anything about the 4 or 8cyl. or even who made them. Steve

[Guest Oracle]

I have this list from Ken:

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/GMhistory/northway.htm

Edited August 2, 2011 by Oracle (see edit history)

[Guest Steve Jansen]

Thank you Oracle. Just printed your list and it also verif. my thought's. Oalkand started 1916 with the Northway and Olds in 1917. Oakland must have had alot of pre 17 engines in stock to carry them into 1918. It looks like Olds. didn't use them until 1917 after Northway made the change to the inclosed valve system. My favorite is still the open valve. Most people open their hood and watch the fan turn. With these they watch the engine. Almost as good as a hit-and-miss show. Steve

[PONTIAC1953]

hi, the name oakland motor division was changed to pontiac motor division before the 1932 model year production started, c johnson, 1932 was the only year to offer the optional flathead V8 engine, and they were not leftover oakland engines, there were several things that different between the oakland and pontiac V8 flathead engines. pontiac was already working on the new flathead straight eight, to come out for 1933. the straight eight was cheaper to produce, and ran much smoother than the flathead V8 of 1932 and before. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor.

Edited August 2, 2011 by pontiac1953 (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

The reason why these big GM divisions used 'other' engines is that GM did not have a big foundry at that time. I think there is some discussion on this on Oracle's site re Chevrolet Fours which Chevrolet only began doing its own castings in the mid 1920s. It is also probably the reason that my 1926 Pontiac has Ferro cast on the block. Unlike some smaller manufacturers that bought their engines in complete, I have always assumed that various GM divisions maybe bought in castings and did their own machining and engine assembly.

[Guest Oracle]

In the US, Chevrolet used amongst others:

Detroit Foundry

Foundry & Machine Products Co, Detroit

Ferro Machine & Foundry Co, Cleveland

Interstate Foundry Co, Cleveland

Campbell Wyant and Canon Foundry Co, Muskegon

Romeo Foundry Co, Port Huron

and Saginaw Products Co, Saginaw with its Grey Iron Foundry that became Chevrolet Grey Iron Foundry in September 1927. Ferro also supplied castings we know for GMC/Pontiac and presumably Oakland engines.

In Canada there were Holmes Foundry Co of Sarnia, opposite the US co of the same name in Port Huron, and Walker Metal Products, formerly Hiram Walker & Sons Metal Prodcuts, of Walkerville. Then GM of Canada went over to using Ferro/SPC then the Saginaw foundry castings until 1935 [on imprted Flint built engines] ...when The McKinnon Industries Ltd of St Catherines started indigenous castings...o

In Canada it gets a bit complicated in the 1922-25 period as regards Chevy and Buick engines and that really has to be explained in my future book! Or webpages!!!

[nzcarnerd]

Oracle, your last comment prompts a question re Canadian production. Am I correct in assuming that some Canadian GM products used locally sourced engine parts? Surely it would have been easier to get them from across the river? Or maybe it had something to do with import duties?