1966 Buick LeSabre Help!

[Brad Kolar]

Good Afternoon Everyone! 

I am quite new to the AACA forums, so I hope that I get some good info back on my car! I am currently a college student, and I decided this past summer to take on my first classic car project. I bought a 1966 Buick LeSabre 4dr. It has the lovely 5.6l 340, with a 2bbl Rochester on it. It has the 2 speed auto trans. Below are some pics of the car. I am VERY aware that it is not stock color, and I am not looking to restore back to showroom, just looking for a decent driver that I can take for a cruise or to some local shows. 

 

I believe that the car is mostly stock besides what I have done to it since last summer. I do have a couple questions regarding some mechanical aspects of the car. Hopefully you all can help! 

 

1: I was told when I brought in the car that the rear end gears were not in the best shape. I dont know if this is something that I can leave alone ( I drive only to car shows and local spots nothing huge)? I believe they said it had 393 gears or some sort.. Like I said, I am relatively new to this car world and slowly learning so if anyone knows the stock gear setup, that would be great. 

 

 

2: The car has stayed fairly stock in terms of mechanical modifications, all I did was put glasspacks on it. I was wondering if there is a set "Disc Brake" conversion just for the front of the car??

I cannot seem to find a lot of info about these cars, I am aware they are not super popular. Hopefully someone can give some advice on this. 

 

[JohnD1956]

Welcome Brad, and nice Le Sabre.  

 

It looks to me like your car has power brakes.  If so you will find this community split on the benefits vs cost to a disc brake conversion.  While disc brakes are preferred by some,  as you indicated, there may not be a conversion kit readily available.  But there are some vendors of the parts on the internet and chances are they have spindles and parts available to make the conversion.  However, the aluminum front drums with the standard shoes will work nearly as well, if not better, when properly adjusted.  When you consider that brake shoes are available in the $20-$30 a pair range,  it may not be effective cost wise to pursue the swap.  Why do you feel that would be needed? 

 

Can't help you with the factory rear axle ratio.  Except to say I doubt it is anything in the 3.0 range or shorter.  I imagine it would be 3.08 at the shortest.  More likely in the 2.56, 2.95 range.  What problems does the rear axle display?  Is it noisy?  

[GARY F]

No need to go to disc. I have two 63 Pontiacs, A Bonne and a Grand Prix with full brake restorations and they will throw you through the windshild when applied.. You have a nice car so just rebuild what is necessary.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Brad Kolar said:

I am VERY aware that it is not stock color,

 

I LIKE the caps. That little old, white haired lady supported herself with a grocery cart and came all the way across the grocery store parking lot to tell you, didn't she. Those people are out there. ( An old woman came over to me in a grocery parking lot a couple months ago and asked me the year. Then called out to her husband in a rusty minivan. She said he had one a long time ago but it was nicer. He would have come over to point out flaws in mine but his oxygen hose wouldn't reach.)

 

John and the others are right about the brake conversion. I think it is mostly a peer pressure mod.

 

I was your age when I dropped a rear end third member off for a new ring and pinion. The guy claimed to be a professional mechanic. He did it completely wrong, swore it was right, and I took it home to do myself. You can fix yours. Don't worry about a dial indicator, blueing, or that stuff. Just now too tight, not too loose, a 20 year old can tell.

 

You picked a good durable car, one you can enjoy thoroughly.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

There are some advantages to power disc brakes, like fade resistance and such, BUT no real reason to get away from power drum brakes.  IF you were hauling a travel trailer across hilly/mountainous territory, then the fade resistance of the front disc brakes would come in handy, but that would be a very different deal from just cruising around.  Stopping from 100mph, in a long panic stop, would certainly be better with disc brakes, but how many times do you do that?  All you need with power drum brakes is a good quality lining material.  Most of those cars had NO problems locking up the brakes in a fast stop, either!  So, at least initially, in normal driving, plenty of stopping power.

 

In modern times, everybody's got the idea that disc brakes are best, which they can be for an OEM-designed system.  But replicating an OEM system at this point in time, without a complete donor vehicle, might be difficult.  The aftermarket people have some good products, but I suspect they might not be as robust as the older OEM systems were . . . just a suspicion.

 

I was at a cruise-in a year or so ago.  I was talking with a younger guy about disc brake conversions.  He did admit that the old GM 11x2 brakes on a '60s pickup probably stopped better than a noted aftermarket conversion kit did.  The OEM would stop quicker.  But the aftermarket kit didn't stop quite so well, but stopped that way "all day long" when pressed hard.  I tend to believe that, too.

 

In the old '60s road tests, most cars stopped form 60mph in about 120 feet.  Skinny tires and all!  Modulating pedal pressure to prevent lock-up was an art!

 

If you want to enjoy the car, just make it run as well as it can, like it is.  Pay attention to things that might need replacing/repairing, NOT upgrading to something in a car magazine.  In other words, make it work as well as it can AND was designed to work.  

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Thriller]

They may not be all that well-adjusted, but I’ve locked up the wheels on my 1966 Wildcat relatively easily and unintentionally...the one time I recall was in the city in a 50 km/hr (31 mph) zone.  I can’t speak for you, but I can say I’ve been comfortable stopping my Wildcat with drum brakes.  The first time we drove it anywhere after getting the engine rebuilt and body done was to Rochester, MN in 2006.  Our children were riding in the car at ages 6, 8, and 10.  I didn’t feel we were putting the family at unnecessary risk (wife was driving while I primarily drove the 1962 Special convertible, which wasn’t as well sorted).

 

As NTX noted, brake fade and such will likely be better than with drums, but if we drive our cars cautiously, then drum brakes will most likely meet our needs.  We can’t fix stupid people cutting us off or turning immediately in front of us.

 

Good luck coming to a decision.  It’s a great car.  Enjoy it.  Thanks for the dash photo...it’s the same as the Wildcat and it brings me warmth on this chilly winter day.

 

[lrlforfun]

OK Brad: I have 4 66 Le Sabres so I think I can chime in with some experience.

 

Power Brakes?  Excellent as hell when operating as designed. Not hard or expensive to bring them up to the highest  factory standards.

 

The rear end? Take it to a QUALIFIED" shop where they specialize in rear ends. Have  them put it up in the air and get an inspection and evaluation.  Go from there.

 

The motor? A 340 with the 2 speed trans is actually much peppier than the 400 package which is a 4 barrel and a turbo 400 transmission. It is NOT a great motor so keep the oil clean and run Marvel's Mystery Oil in the crankcase.

 

Mitch

[Brad Kolar]

12 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Brad: I have 4 66 Le Sabres so I think I can chime in with some experience.

 

Power Brakes?  Excellent as hell when operating as designed. Not hard or expensive to bring them up to the highest  factory standards.

 

 The rear end? Take it to a QUALIFIED" shop where they specialize in rear ends. Have  them put it up in the air and get an inspection and evaluation.  Go from there.

 

The motor? A 340 with the 2 speed trans is actually much peppier than the 400 package which is a 4 barrel and a turbo 400 transmission. It is NOT a great motor so keep the oil clean and run Marvel's Mystery Oil in the crankcase.

 

Mitch

Awesome! Thank you for the advice. I believe they are power. They do work well, but I find that they they will not stop squeaking! I believe that the person before me replaced them, and the shop I took them to adjusted them correctly so they work well, but after like 3 stops, they just consistently squeak. It is quite obnoxious to be honest and I hate rolling up to shows with them sounding like I have no clue how to work on a car! 

 

[Brad Kolar]

13 hours ago, Thriller said:

They may not be all that well-adjusted, but I’ve locked up the wheels on my 1966 Wildcat relatively easily and unintentionally...the one time I recall was in the city in a 50 km/hr (31 mph) zone.  I can’t speak for you, but I can say I’ve been comfortable stopping my Wildcat with drum brakes.  The first time we drove it anywhere after getting the engine rebuilt and body done was to Rochester, MN in 2006.  Our children were riding in the car at ages 6, 8, and 10.  I didn’t feel we were putting the family at unnecessary risk (wife was driving while I primarily drove the 1962 Special convertible, which wasn’t as well sorted).

 

As NTX noted, brake fade and such will likely be better than with drums, but if we drive our cars cautiously, then drum brakes will most likely meet our needs.  We can’t fix stupid people cutting us off or turning immediately in front of us.

 

Good luck coming to a decision.  It’s a great car.  Enjoy it.  Thanks for the dash photo...it’s the same as the Wildcat and it brings me warmth on this chilly winter day.

 

Yes they are not horrible, as I replied below, the main issue is that they seem to squeak horribly. I cannot seem to get it to stop, I have had them adjusted and they dont stop. It is obnoxious at this point.

[Brad Kolar]

18 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

Welcome Brad, and nice Le Sabre.  

 

It looks to me like your car has power brakes.  If so you will find this community split on the benefits vs cost to a disc brake conversion.  While disc brakes are preferred by some,  as you indicated, there may not be a conversion kit readily available.  But there are some vendors of the parts on the internet and chances are they have spindles and parts available to make the conversion.  However, the aluminum front drums with the standard shoes will work nearly as well, if not better, when properly adjusted.  When you consider that brake shoes are available in the $20-$30 a pair range,  it may not be effective cost wise to pursue the swap.  Why do you feel that would be needed? 

 

Can't help you with the factory rear axle ratio.  Except to say I doubt it is anything in the 3.0 range or shorter.  I imagine it would be 3.08 at the shortest.  More likely in the 2.56, 2.95 range.  What problems does the rear axle display?  Is it noisy?  

Thank you! 

So the rear end seems to have a whirring noise as I am on and off the gas at higher speeds. I do not intend this "land yacht" to be doing burnouts or anything crazy, so I dont want to spend tons on it. I do think it drives fine currently, but after getting the transmission/drivetrain looked at for some leaks, I was told that the rear end was pretty worn out, and that they could not find any match. The shop has been pretty knowledgable so I dont want to doubt their expertise, but I cant imagine there being "NOTHING" available as the mechanic said. 

[Brad Kolar]

17 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

I LIKE the caps. That little old, white haired lady supported herself with a grocery cart and came all the way across the grocery store parking lot to tell you, didn't she. Those people are out there. ( An old woman came over to me in a grocery parking lot a couple months ago and asked me the year. Then called out to her husband in a rusty minivan. She said he had one a long time ago but it was nicer. He would have come over to point out flaws in mine but his oxygen hose wouldn't reach.)

 

John and the others are right about the brake conversion. I think it is mostly a peer pressure mod.

 

I was your age when I dropped a rear end third member off for a new ring and pinion. The guy claimed to be a professional mechanic. He did it completely wrong, swore it was right, and I took it home to do myself. You can fix yours. Don't worry about a dial indicator, blueing, or that stuff. Just now too tight, not too loose, a 20 year old can tell.

 

You picked a good durable car, one you can enjoy thoroughly.

Bernie

Well as many of you know, the whole "damn young kids resto-modding" classic cars is looked down upon at my local cruise night, the problem for me being that I did not want a gigantic baby blue land yacht. I think that the disc conversion is a little over hyped, as I mentioned below, the brakes work great! They just squeak after like 5 miles of driving and it only gets worse as I drive more and more. Hopefully someone here can remedy that. Otherwise, I am pretty thrilled with the car, I think it is something different that no one else at my town's car show is remotely close to my age. I actually have college/high school kids even some older couples! come over and ask me how I got into classic cars. I love it every moment I go further into the "money pit" haha

[JohnD1956]

2 hours ago, Brad Kolar said:

Thank you! 

So the rear end seems to have a whirring noise as I am on and off the gas at higher speeds. I do not intend this "land yacht" to be doing burnouts or anything crazy, so I dont want to spend tons on it. I do think it drives fine currently, but after getting the transmission/drivetrain looked at for some leaks, I was told that the rear end was pretty worn out, and that they could not find any match. The shop has been pretty knowledgable so I dont want to doubt their expertise, but I cant imagine there being "NOTHING" available as the mechanic said. 

 

Here are a few considerations.

If I saw it right, there's 48K on this car?  Is that right?   If so, it is highly unlikely that there is a problem with the rear axle.

Is there evidence that the rear axle leaked it's fluid?  If not I would be surprised if there is a problem with a 148K rear axle.  But anything is possible.

Are the tires new?  And are they a quality tire?  Tire whine can be mistaken for rear axle noise.  Two quick stories:

 

My Father in law changed the rear axle housing and all on his 70 Malibu.  Then put the same recapped tires back on and the whine was still there.  New tires later and it disappeared.

 

My neighbor wanted a shorter set of gears for his trans am.  There was nothing wrong with his original set and he is experienced with rear end set up.  So he buys a set and the rear end whines.  So much so that he pulls it and re installs the gears again to make sure he did it right.  It continued to whine.  Finally he pulled it and replaced the original gears and it stopped whining.  The point being, it may be best to let a sleeping dog lie. 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

15 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

It is NOT a great motor so keep the oil clean and run Marvel's Mystery Oil in the crankcase.

 

Mitch, would you expand on why it's not a great motor?  My experience with 340's  has been limited, but just the opposite. 

[Brad Kolar]

20 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

Here are a few considerations.

If I saw it right, there's 48K on this car?  Is that right?   If so, it is highly unlikely that there is a problem with the rear axle.

Is there evidence that the rear axle leaked it's fluid?  If not I would be surprised if there is a problem with a 148K rear axle.  But anything is possible.

Are the tires new?  And are they a quality tire?  Tire whine can be mistaken for rear axle noise.  Two quick stories:

 

My Father in law changed the rear axle housing and all on his 70 Malibu.  Then put the same recapped tires back on and the whine was still there.  New tires later and it disappeared.

 

My neighbor wanted a shorter set of gears for his trans am.  There was nothing wrong with his original set and he is experienced with rear end set up.  So he buys a set and the rear end whines.  So much so that he pulls it and re installs the gears again to make sure he did it right.  It continued to whine.  Finally he pulled it and replaced the original gears and it stopped whining.  The point being, it may be best to let a sleeping dog lie. 

 

Yes, you did see it right. I believe the story that I was told was that the car came from North Dakota. An old lady was the original owner, she blew the master cylinder on it somehow and when that happened, she hit a tree. I dont remember if I have a pic, but the front passenger fender had a huge dent in it. Either way, she garaged it until the guy that I bought it from got it from her. The guy I bought it from said that he had put new tires on there,  they are General Alti-trak rt43s. They seem new, and I opted to not buy new ones because they were so new. I think it is a gears thing, ill try and get a recording, although it is a faint whirring noise. It isnt a huge deal, but eventually I would like to take it for a drive to my college Illinois State University. I am from the Chicago burbs so it would be around 2.5hr drive. I just dont want to chance it and break down. This would be one trip, not a regular thing. 

 

[GARY F]

If I am not mistaken I think your car has self adjusting brake shoes, so there would be no reason to have someone adjust them. As for the squeak it is possible that the previous owner put on cheap shoes that are hard. Good quality shoes should not squeak.  Does the rear have the correct lube in it??  If it is a posi rear it needs to have the additive in it.

[dei]

This may be of no help but... 

I'm not familiar if your car has the enclosed driveshaft (torque tube), if not has anyone checked the universal joints for noise? If they have grease fittings you might try and give them a shot and then test drive to see if the noise quits. 

My dad had a '59 Oldsmobile with a split drive shaft requiring three universal joints and while they all appeared tight and in good condition, it was the middle one that would squeak while under load at speed and go quiet when backing off the gas.

Greasing in his case helped but eventually had to replace it.

Just thought it might be something to check out.

 

As others has stated it is generally a good dependable nice driving car when well maintained.

[lrlforfun]

OK John 😧 The 340 has poor oiling. It's a wimpy and  small engine for a big and heavy car, not much power. Add hills and the a/c on and it's really gutless. Today? Add Father Time's shadow and it's  not lookin' too good. Buick realized this in 1968 and responded with the much improved 350 which stayed for a very long time. I base my experience from have a new one and currently having 4.   And....the Skylark? Lighter car with a 300 trans= a lot peppier. Mitch

[JohnD1956]

Thanks Mitch.  I have not experienced a 340 in a LeSabre.   I did have one in a Sport Wagon.  It was adequate as I recall.  But I really did not have the car a long time before someone made me an offer I could not refuse.  That guy drove it for several years but I don't even recall the mileage on the car when I had it.  Other than that I know of one in a '67 Skylark which the owner is very happy with.  I wonder just what the rear axle ratio truly is?   Could that be the cause of the perceived lack of power? 

[NTX5467]

With power drum brakes, it's always good to have everything adjusted correctly.  That way, for example, either the two rear wheels will lock up if the front's don't lock up also.  Quite dramatic and attention-getting when all four tires are locked-up, smoking, and sliding the car to a quick stop.  Modern anti-locks make funny noises and aren't much fun, usually, BUT they have their advantages, too.

 

NTX5467

[CanadianWildcat]

Drum brakes squealing usually is hard shoes and glazed drums. Sand the shoe surface a little (A LITTLE) with a course paper to get into the softer stuff... get someone with a brake lathe to turn the drums... when you re-install the shoes make sure the little pads on the backing plates where the shoe meets has been cleaned (I use a die grinder with a brown cookie) and then use a proper brake lube (white grease does work, gold anti-seize, I use Permatex silicone ceramic brake lubricant #24122) This will help with the squeal as well, and is just proper. Also just because a vehicle has self adjusting brakes does not mean you can't make the adjustment even finer yourself to insure it will perform properly.

 

The whirring sound you are hearing is unfortunately probably a carrier or pinion bearing... When you accelerate the pinion gear is trying to climb up the ring gear... when you decelerate you are unloading everything (kinda, depends on how hard and etc. I am trying not to get to technical) Also because the gear are not straight cut when you accel or decel you are pushing the pinion in and out. So simply put when you are loading the bearings (on gas) you will hear the whine or whir more and less when the bearings are unloaded (off gas). Those parts will be available somewhere, sometimes I have to pull the cup and cones and get the part numbers off them and buy the parts piece by piece. 

 

I am only offering this advice as a mechanic and not Buick specialist. If a customer came into my shop with any vehicle this would be the advice I would give them to start. Good luck.

[63DreamMachine]

With power drums also make sure your booster vacuum canister and any related check valves are sound and holding vacuum, not leaking. You need strong manifold vacuum to get the "thrown through the windshield power" from these systems which you may not have in stop and go city traffic unless the vac cannisters hold vacuum from prior bouts of acceleration. I revised mine on the 63 LeSabre and it was night and day in terms of boost and stopping power. 

[NTX5467]

As drum brake linings are NOT in contact with the drum when the wheels are turning, unlike disc brakes where the friction pads ARE touching the brake rotor to some degree as the car moves, the longer the car drives should not cause the brake noise to get worse, only stopping situations might do that.  IF there are any squeals, as noted, it's usually due to a "hard spot" on the lining.  Sometimes, scuffing up the friction area of the shoe can get rid of or decrease these hard spot areas . . . worth a try.  THEN get a brake shoe caliper to get the shoes adjusted with.  You set it to the drum inner diameter and then adjust the shoes to match that, with the drums removed.

 

The Buick 340 is probably as good of an engine as anybody else built back then.  Hard to understand how an additional 10 cid could make the 350 a much-improved version of its prior self?  Granted, in a time when 2-speed automatics were on the way out, being replaced by 3-speed automatics, the 2-speed will always be a little slower off the line, even with the Switch-Pitch feature, BUT it's also known that many big-time drag racers use Chevy PowerGlide-based transmissions . . . due to the fact it takes less power to run it, meaning more power to the driving wheels.  Something of a trade-off, it seems.  So, to me, the 340 2-speed automatic LeSabre makes a good drive-around car that can be pretty decent in the performance department.  Flaky thing is that almost every newer 4 cyl with a "jillion-speed" automatic can easily beat an older car from the red light.  Just as a 4-speed automatic trans vehicle (with a lower low gear ratio) can beat the normal 3-speed automatic vehicle, similarly, not allowing for the usually deeper rear axle ratio of the OD automatic vehicle.

 

NOW, what it can do is accelerate "smartly" off the line with a 1/2 throttle punch, NOT WOT off-idle as many seem to want to do.  The rear axle ratio probably is something like a 2.93, which can allow lower engine rpms at cruise (for better fuel economy with the generally smaller 2bbl that Buick used on the smaller V-8s back then).  Not sure what parts the shop was looking for OR if they were seeking to find a used rear axle in the salvage yards.  IF they were looking for possible repair parts, then no auto supply will have them in stock as they are not the more common Chevy axle, I suspect.  And, sometimes, shops can claim "no parts available" for a job that might tie-up shop space for longer periods of time or that they don't feel comfortable doing, by observation . . . just an advisory.  Be that as it may.  Now, there were some differences in model years of Buick rear axles, which might be a factor, too.  I'd have to do more research in this area.  I've got a '68 LeSabre that might need some of those things, too.

 

Correctly diagnosing the noise you're hearing can be important in proposing what is needed to fix it.  I suspect that bearings, seals, and gaskets are the main things, with the differential spider gears and/or ring gear and pinion being the "deeper" items.  But for now, as long as it isn't making serious sounds back then (like some metallic items that don'g want to work together), possibly no immediate repairs will be needed.  In some of those older axle designs, a slight hum was somewhat normal, but if it gets louder than a "background sound", then it's time to get more serious about seeing what's going on.

 

Has the rear axle lube been changed in recent history?  This is one lube that's generally considered "life time", so it just got checked and not suctioned out and replaced with fresh lube, typically.  If there is a rear cover to remove, then that removal can be the time to replace the lube AND look at the condition of the differential internals.

 

So, enjoy the car for what it is and the joy it brings to you and others.  The brake sound probably needs to be diagnosed and addressed for a better driving experience, when funding exists for such things.

 

Keep us posted,

NTX5467