1949 Buick Road Master model 70 starter issue?

[Brooklyn Beer]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:41 PM, Ronnie said:

 

Pick their brain and ask them why they think the solenoid contacts stick closed and keep the starter running until you remove the battery cable. They have probably been down this road before...

 

Talked with the dealer IMI in CA today about the starter and he gave me the go ahead to dismantle to solenoid cover and take some pictures for him. Sounds like a stand up guy in his late 70's no less.  When I told him I replaced a stock starter and followed the directions to go with one wire and not 2, he asked if I used a pigtail to connect the R as well as the S wires.  I told him no because the directions made no mention of this. I never even got a splitter pigtail with the starter. Only to connect the 12 volt trigger wire.  Is the R wire a return wire or ?  So anyways he seemed quite interested in why this happened and instructed me what to do in regards to checking out the contacts.  Thought of one thing. Being the original carb vac switch was designed for 6 volts how would it react to 12 volts?  Never tested under load to see if voltage dropped when starter was engaged.  Anyways, have parts ordered to just make it push button starter with key only activating ignition circuit now.

[Ronnie]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:21 AM, old-tank said:

Get this

Use as a test device before installing a starter button.  Connect to battery (+) and 'S' terminal on solenoid.  Just be sure car is out of gear when you crank with the key 'on'.

 

I agree with this. When you get the starter and solenoid back to good working order you should crank it over by connecting 12 volts directly to the solenoid as described above. That will take the old wiring out of the equation while you are testing the starter.  If you can operate the starter under load for an extended period without problems then you can move on to making changes to the wiring to add a push button.

 

 

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

 

I agree with this. When you get the starter and solenoid back to good working order you should crank it over by connecting 12 volts directly to the solenoid as described above. That will take the old wiring out of the equation while you are testing the starter.  If you can operate the starter under load for an extended period without problems then you can move on to making changes to the wiring to add a push button.

remote starter ordered. Thankfully the weather here stinks so drive time is cut off regardless. Plenty of work time now to problem solve. 10 gauge wire for the push button to solenoid. Should I look at putting in a fuse on this line and if so, what amp can i expect to use?

 

 

[1956322]

I don't see a need for a fuse there..I don't run one..I guess if you decided to then put it on the constant hot side.. The battery to switch side

[Ronnie]

I were you I wouldn't bypass the neutral safety switch if you install a push button for the starter. I would keep it in the circuit.

[Brooklyn Beer]

OK, I think I found what looks like one of the issues with the starter.  I am going to emery cloth the connects as they don't seem pitted. When I removed the starter I was able to pull on the drive gear and I could hear it disengage before I took it apart.  The battery cable though will go in the recycle copper pile and be changed to a 2 gauge wire. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Question is , why?    

 

  Ben

[Ronnie]

That copper contact ring you have in your hand should contact the terminal lugs inside the housing evenly if everything is in proper alignment.  Seeing that 99% of the contact has been made on the terminal lug on the right side makes me think that the starter drive is in a bind when engaging the flywheel forcing the contact ring out of alignment with the lugs OR the lugs are not positioned properly (which I doubt). Was there any sign of that binding or misalignment when you removed the starter? Do you see any signs of scuffing or scratching on the metal cylinder you have in your hand that might indicate it wasn't moving freely inside the solenoid?

 

[Brooklyn Beer]

I examined the drive gear that makes contact with the fly wheel and I don't see anything in the way of gouges in any of the teeth. Looking at the picture It seems to have stuck on the leaving side of the contacts. The starter has not much play is the way it can be moved off the flywheel but I will make sure it is pushed as far off the flywheel as the little bit of slop in the bolt holes allow. I will clean up the contacts and reinstall with new cable and then use the test switch that arrives today. One question. Would that heat that caused the contacts to stick have warped the one contact any?  Should I loosen the one contact (burnt) and see if I can move it forward a hair to get equal contact on both sides or first just try and move the drive gear as far away from the fly wheel as possible.  I mean we are talking a 1/16th or so at the most it will allow.

[gdmn852]

Hello the starter you have is identical to to mine ,it was contacting from the side contact getting twisted from tightening it and then it contacted the round contact.just that small square of plastic is supposed to to keep it aligned and in location might be something to be aware of I had worked on mine for a couple of days before figuring that out .Mine is converted to 12 volts also but never had an issue with the switch on carburetor or Dynaflow.Actually a 6 volt system has to handle more amperage so the original 6 volt switch should handle 12 volts that’s why have to use much thicker cable on on a 6 volt .Hope you find source of the problem I’ve been through similar issues and can be frustrating.Thought the new starter will help. Good luck .Gary 

[Brooklyn Beer]

Thanks Gary.  Did you have to do something in regards of aligning the contacts or ?  I am going to give it one more shot after I clean the contacts and get the test switch. I was pulling a good 12.4 volts through the stock system to the starter trigger wire. The old battery lead looked bad and it was fried. So replacing with a 2 gauge wire. Keeping fingers crossed the starter was struggling with not getting enough juice.  This is just one issue. I have to get it back to running to see if the new ballast resistor fixed the stumbling and missing.

[1956322]

You might wanna try the starter outside of the vehicle just to see what it does.. Just lay it on the ground.. Hook battery negative to the starter case...positive to the big stud.. Just use jumper cables.. Then take your tester and hook one side to the big lead and the other to the small solenoid lead.. Put your foot on it and hit the button it should kick out the gear and spin like there's no tomorrow.. Release button and it sound retract gear and stop spinning

[gdmn852]

Hello I just aligned back with the square plastic after removed arcing marks on both parts, this also caused the relay to fry so I had two problems that I had to figure out be careful when tightening down bolts.and make sure the contacts are hitting flat on each other.All this was on my car when I bought it along with a homemade wiring harness that I had to replace so I can relate to chasing down wires etc to find out the real problem was. 

[JohnD1956]

8 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Question is , why?    

 

@Brooklyn Beer  Do you have a Service manual for your car?  I don't and so I looked at the 1950 Buick Service manual on the Hometown Buick site where I found a diagram of the cranking system for the 1950.  50 Buick cranking system  Therefore the following comment could be incorrect.

 

On the '50, the solenoid is the relay for the starter.  As you know,  a relay is used as a switch to ( essentially) turn on a full voltage circuit for the intended application.  If I read the attached diagram right, when one turns the ignition switch to "On", one of the two wires to the starter switch at the carb is energized.  When one steps on the starter switch the 2nd wire is energized and this second wire goes to the "S" terminal on the solenoid.  This energy source activates the magnets inside the solenoid, resulting in moving and hold the plunger against the springs inside the solenoid.   This causes that round contact to close on one end of the plunger, and also drives the starter gear into the position against the flywheel on the other end of the plunger.

 

When the contacts inside the solenoid are made, that connects the starter motor directly to the battery cable which is attached to the front of the solenoid.  I believe that arcing you discovered inside the solenoid is what caused your starter motor to remain energized at all times and to continue turning till the battery was disconnected.

 

And according to this 1950 Diagram that "R" terminal is not a "return" contact.  That contact is there as one of the three fails safes built into the vehicle, which prevents the solenoid from being activated once the vehicle is running.  In the factory version of the 6 volt wiring, that "R" terminal is connected through the voltage regulator, to the generator, such that when the generator is charging the system, the solenoid is blocked from activating the plunger in the solenoid.

 

Knowing this, what you really need to do is follow the wires that were changed in your car when it was converted to an Alternator and 12 volts.  It would appear that if this 1950 wiring diagram is like your '49 wiring diagram,  then you have a source that is erroneously activating the wire connected to the "S" terminal.  This could mean your starter switch at the carb is not set up correctly, or is broken, and / or your ignition switch may be not operating correctly for a variety of reasons.

 

What we do not know is how the wiring may have been modified in your car during the conversions.  But the fact that you used the car with no problems a few times and then this all happened, I would recommend that you check under the dash board to see if there are old wires under there, with deteriorated insulation that may be resulting in a short circuit .

 

Of course, if you have the '49 manual, it would be important to check that diagram against what wiring you have in the car, to look for compromises that we cannot see from our position at the keyboards.

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Bingo!  What John said has been niggling me for days. Tell you what.Your mini starter, if like mine only has the one small terminal, or s terminal. Disconnect from that.  Get yourself a pushbutton switch from an auto parts store. Mount it somewhere convenient. Unhook the wires at the carb vacuum switch.  One will be "hot" with ignition switch on.  Connect to one side of the pushbutton switch.  From the other side of the pushbutton run a wire to the s terminal on the starter. You have now bypassed any miswired circuits. Turn the ignition switch on, push the button and see what happens.

 

  The wire John is speaking of is a ground for the solenoid. With the generator NOT CHARGING it is grounded thereby grounding the solenoid.  When the generator began charging the ground was broken, rendering the solenoid inoperative. You lost this with the alternator. I simply taped both ends of that wire. 

 

  As Willie says, do this and check back.

 

  Ben

[Brooklyn Beer]

Alright.  So far a good morning.  Cleaned and polished contacts and put starter back together.    Put starter on piece of carpet on garage floor and hooked with jumper cables to car battery. Starter did not turn over as was happening when I removed it from car.  Good to go. Took test switch as was recommended (love amazon 1 day delivery) and made a test pigtail to S terminal and hooked up test switch from S terminal to Positive of battery.  Spun and actuated and retarded like a dream without any issues.  Cycled it a few times with both long and short duration's.  No issue at all.   Reinstalled starter in car and there is basically zero ability to move starter off flywheel so if it was going to bind it is the starter issue and not mine.  Hooked up new 2 gauge positive cable and insured good clean snug connections.  Took test switch and attached to battery and again to S switch.  No ignition turned on. Cranked starter again for short, then longer duration. Noticed no odd sounds from failure to mesh or any struggle at all from starter.  This was on a 50 degree motor.  Waited some time and repeated process.  Again nothing odd. No drag or laboring from starter. 

 

Being I had previously tested voltage through the carb switch and to S terminal at 12.4 volts are opinions of should I just go for it through the existing (and in very good condition) existing starter circuit that was working and tested as should or should I run a test lead from the leaving side of the carb switch to the S terminal and test? Putting battery on charge right now so have time to think about it. At one time this wiring harness was a top end replacement and it has not been cut up or hacked. Still very clean and in good shape. 

[Brooklyn Beer]

14 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Bingo!  What John said has been niggling me for days. Tell you what.Your mini starter, if like mine only has the one small terminal, or s terminal. Disconnect from that.  Get yourself a pushbutton switch from an auto parts store. Mount it somewhere convenient. Unhook the wires at the carb vacuum switch.  One will be "hot" with ignition switch on.  Connect to one side of the pushbutton switch.  From the other side of the pushbutton run a wire to the s terminal on the starter. You have now bypassed any miswired circuits. Turn the ignition switch on, push the button and see what happens.

 

  The wire John is speaking of is a ground for the solenoid. With the generator NOT CHARGING it is grounded thereby grounding the solenoid.  When the generator began charging the ground was broken, rendering the solenoid inoperative. You lost this with the alternator. I simply taped both ends of that wire. 

 

  As Willie says, do this and check back.

 

  Ben

Will not this circuit still need activated by the gas pedal? and do I not risk having the starter engaged to the engine for too long a period of time if it starts,.. being the ignition needs to be turned on. I am out there by myself with nobody to turn off the key or work the pedal while I am under the hood with the test switch.  Like I said, I tested that circuit and showed 12.4 volts to the S switch terminal connector and that going through the entire existing circuit from key switch, through pedal switch, and carb switch.  How much load drop could or should I expect with motor cranking.  Would a starter turning drag that circuit down more then .4 volts?  Looking at the fried undersized old cable that was corroded and blackened inside some I suspect the load was really below what the starter was begging for which most likely was draining the system as well.

[Ronnie]

3 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Took test switch and attached to battery and again to S switch.  No ignition turned on. Cranked starter again for short, then longer duration. Noticed no odd sounds from failure to mesh or any struggle at all from starter.  This was on a 50 degree motor.  Waited some time and repeated process.  Again nothing odd. No drag or laboring from starter. 

 

It looks like my theory of the starter binding was wrong.  I'm happy to hear it was for your sake.

[Brooklyn Beer]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

 

It looks like my theory of the starter binding was wrong.  I'm happy to hear it was for your sake.

I took a couple vids but can't seem to transfer off the phone.  I am about to go out and turn it over with the existing circuit intake and see what happens.  Since it hasn't been started in a month I might just start it off the test switch.  If it fires up good there I will then try it off the cars circuit.

[old-tank]

20 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

If it fires up good there I will then try it off the cars circuit.

The only car (starting) circuit should be the push button wired like your test switch.  At this point forget about the carb switch which may be defective and not be shutting off after starting.  The ignition circuit is separate and not related to the start other than turning it on when you want to start.

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 hour ago, old-tank said:

The only car (starting) circuit should be the push button wired like your test switch.  At this point forget about the carb switch which may be defective and not be shutting off after starting.  The ignition circuit is separate and not related to the start other than turning it on when you want to start.

Yep, tried starting off the cars circuit and the starter attempted to run on but the key shut it off.  So something in there is acting up so done with that. I just had to attempt. So now am working off the test switch from battery to S switch and it spins fine and quick and no laboring.  (Wiring and parts for  push button start will be here next week)  BUT.  Now it won't fire. I have checked everything with a test light. Power through both sides of resistor, power through coil, power into distributor and power at points.  Coil wire connections seem good. Wires, plugs, cap, etc are all new. points are new, clean and gaped. I drove it into the garage like this and it has run with the new ballast resistor but the starter issue kept me from looking at the stumble, breaking up and miss issue until I fixed the starter. Now I can't even get a cough with a shot of starting fluid. Only wire disconnected that was connected is the S wire to starter. Have not messed with anything else except bring the idle screws out 3 turns after screwing all the way in because they were both not matched and was running rich at idle.  Again, it was running great until it started breaking up one day heading home. Pulled a plug and it was wet so getting fuel. It was also sooty. Pulled coil wire and inserted plug and got a great arc when turning over so definitely power into the cap from coil. Plugs in there are are not new as I found some motor paint on the one I pulled so about to replace those. Right now they are Champion RJ18YC.  They are getting changed to AC R45S. As far as I know Champion RJ18YC is the plug recommended for snowblowers.  

Edited December 16, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)

[1956322]

This might sound odd but bear with me.. Hook a spark plug wire to a plug... Ground plug and see if the plug is sparking..I once had a whole set of plugs not fire on a friends car.. Ran fine pulling in.. Few hours later nothing.. Had spark coming from coil had fuel but nothing.. Plugs were all carbon fouled which caused them to short out... If you have spark at coil but not at plug either it's the plugs or the distributor cap

[Brooklyn Beer]

3 minutes ago, 1956322 said:

This might sound odd but bear with me.. Hook a spark plug wire to a plug... Ground plug and see if the plug is sparking..I once had a whole set of plugs not fire on a friends car.. Ran fine pulling in.. Few hours later nothing.. Had spark coming from coil had fuel but nothing.. Plugs were all carbon fouled which caused them to short out... If you have spark at coil but not at plug either it's the plugs or the distributor cap

Not happy with the choice of plugs in the car right now for sure for sure. The one I pulled was fouled to check the coil wire so it can't hurt to upgrade. Everything in the distributor looks brand new so so much for assuming they would have changed the plugs too. The undersized and degraded battery wire has me looking at everything now.

[Brooklyn Beer]

on the note of chasing spark, anyone change out to a pertronix ignition system?  What else needs to be changed to have it function ?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

It is OK, but lets get this thing running first. You don't need any more diversions.  

   Then contact me. I have a better way then the pertronix.

 

  Ben

[Brooklyn Beer]

37 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

It is OK, but lets get this thing running first. You don't need any more diversions.  

   Then contact me. I have a better way then the pertronix.

 

  Ben

Yeah, I know.  My projects always turn out growing in scope if I am not reeled in.  New plugs should be here tuesday and I have a 5 day weekend all to myself and the cars.  Starter button materials also coming.  I tried turning over the starter 3 times with the stock circuit and at the end of the 3rd it wanted to hang up again but the key killed it this time. The test switch and starter functioned flawlessly though.  Thanks for all the advice !

[1956322]

If it functioned flawlessly with the test button then something isn't right with that wiring.. I'd just run the button straight to the starter just bypass everything keep it simple

[gdmn852]

Glad you have it working now you never know what previous owners did when they modify things as I mentioned mine had a modified wiring system took it out a put in a new harness.

[Brooklyn Beer]

Well I have the starter working off a test switch until the wire shows up to run a new circuit. Now I am at another stage of the game to get it back running. I decided to change out the plugs being when I checked one it was fouled and sure enough they were all fouled. Looking at the plug that was installed I have no idea why it was because it doesn't cross reference anywhere. Champion RJ18YC.  It shows a popular plug for snowblowers and lawn tractors. (???)  Plus they were gaped at .35 instead of the recommended .25.  So I just put in AC R45's gaped at .25 as I have seen cross referenced.  Is there any reason why that that type of Champion plug might have been installed and gaped that wide?   Anyway, the motor still won't even cough for me when turning over.  It attempted twice to catch on one cylinder. I have my handy dandy spark tester of the one you hold to the plug wire and crank that throws a light. I do not know how accurate those are but I do show intermittent spark and a much varying degree of brightness of that test light going back and forth between plug wires as it turns over.  Never stays the same even for each plug. I am holding it as close to the plug as I can get.  Every cylinder fires but it looks to me not all the time. Again, I don't know how accurate these things are.   I am thinking weak coil.  Would any 12 volt coil do?  Remember this whole saga started with the car starting to break up real bad out of the blue one day while driving after running, starting, and driving quite nice (if a little rich). I replaced the Ballast resistor already as it looked crappy. It is getting fuel. Pulled a plug to smell it.

[1956322]

And your points and condenser are healthy??

[Brooklyn Beer]

They look very good and I would even say new by lack of any dust or even discoloring.  Every cylinder does show spark getting to it, just not all the time and with a weak indicator light at intervals. Some times on the same wire after going back and forth to other wires it is bright then dull. Again I am not sure how accurate those hold against the plug wire testers are.

[JohnD1956]

49 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Pulled a plug to smell it.

 

Did you blow out the cylinders when the plugs were out?  Or just put new plugs in.

 

Also, can you isolate your spark plug wires from each other and from any metal they may be laying on.  It sounds to me like the engine is still flooded and the spark plug wires may be crossfiring.

[Guest]

How strong is your battery.  Sometimes if it is even slightly low the starter will draw so much current that the coil doesn't always fire.

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 minute ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

Did you blow out the cylinders when the plugs were out?  Or just put new plugs in.

 

Also, can you isolate your spark plug wires from each other and from any metal they may be laying on.  It sounds to me like the engine is still flooded and the spark plug wires may be crossfiring.

No, I did not blow out any cylinders when plugs were out.  Engine had sat for 3 days days without attempting to turn over until I got new plugs. Old plugs were definitely fouled.  I will isolate wires as they are all loomed together but nothing touching metal.

[Ronnie]

Do you have a 12 volt or a 6 volt coil on the car now?

[Brooklyn Beer]

4 minutes ago, Tinindian said:

How strong is your battery.  Sometimes if it is even slightly low the starter will draw so much current that the coil doesn't always fire.

Battery shows 12.6 volts. It has been charged between work sessions. 

[Brooklyn Beer]

Just now, Ronnie said:

Do you have a 12 volt or a 6 volt coil on the car now?

That is a good question !  I didn't look at that. Would it be molded into the top?

[Ronnie]

I don't know how to tell unless it is written on it somewhere.  Since your electrical system has been modified it is important to know. Earlier 12 volt systems, 1957 Buicks for instance, had a circuit that bypassed the ballast resistor when the starter was engaged. See below.

 

[Brooklyn Beer]

Yep, 6 volt coil in BIG letters and numbers.  Some oil seepage you would not see unless it was out of the car or you ran your hands around it as well .  Don't see a bypass around the ballast resistor going to the coil for the voltage drop during cranking. Wonder how much voltage was leaving that 6 volt coil. What does 12 volts going into it cause it to do?

Edited December 19, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer
added info (see edit history)

[gdmn852]

Make sure the distributor plate where the points and condenser mount rotates freely if you disconnect the vacuum advance .and also check the vacuum advance is also working .mine was jammed up from someone putting too long of screws in causing it to bind up changing the timing.