1963 Brake lamp switch conversion

[Guest Kaber]

Hey guys,

 

We converted my Sons 63 to a dual master cylinder shortly after we got it so I really don't have a history with how the original system performed. However, since, we seem to have a recurring issue with brake lamps. It seems you have to apply the brakes quite firmly in order to illuminate the brake lamps. The system uses a hydraulic switch to activate the lamps. I plumbed it into the brake lines at one of the tee's that was left open when we split the brake line for the dual system, before that the switch resided in the old single master cylinder. Originally I used the factory switch and had this problem (intermittent brake lamps) so I changed to a low pressure switch from Summit and it seemed to correct it for a while but it all seems to be back to the intermittent brake lamp activation that we have been having from the start. To make matters worse the tail lamp sockets seem to be wonkey. When the brake lamps do light the Driver side comes on while the passengers side does not, On the passenger side the metal retainer for the bulb wants to come out of the socket, breaking contact with spring tabs that supply the power to the bulb. The little sawtooth retainers in the socket don't grab the plastic housing anymore causing the bulb to push everything up and not have enough tension to keep contact.

 

Here is where i need help! I would like to replace my tail lamp sockets and replace the Hydraulic brake lamp switch with a more contemporary brake lamp switch on the brake pedal itself. I know the 64 up Rivs used a more contemporary switch like that. Does anyone make a replacement brake lamp socket (it seems quite basic)? Is there a recommended brake light switch for converting to an interior electric brake lamp activation system? I am assuming I use the same wires I have now and just extend them to the interior to feed power to the new switch? Has anyone experienced this issue? I seem to recall an article in the ROA that may have detailed this conversion to some extent, I need to get the current password from my son so I can log on and check it out.

 

Anyone parting out a 64/65 that would want to sell the Brake lamp switch assy and tail lamp sockets?

 

Thanks and any help would be appreciated!

 

Tim

 

UPDATE: found the tail/brake lamp sockets on Rock auto and I also added a 64 Brake lamp switch to the order. It's 2 wire and mounts on a threaded plastic shaft. Still need to know what the bracket looks like!

 

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Kaber (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I soldered a ground wire to my tail lamp housings and used a ring terminal to ground them to the tail light housing bolts. The plug in socket just never made me happy.

[Riviera63]

On 1/17/2012 at 4:38 PM, 1965rivgs said:

The brake light circuit goes thru the turn signal switch. If the switch is not in a neutral position, as is very common when the sheath on the turn signal actuating wire goes bad (tilt wheel only), the brake lights will only illuminate on one side. After you sort out the basics like good ground and connections, try positioning the tilt wheel in several locations when one brake light is out and you may find that is your problem.

Tom Mooney

 

Do you have a tilt wheel? If yes, this could be the problem with one brake light and not the other. I thought I had a bad bulb and replaced that. The problem persisted so I thought I had a bad socket and replaced it. Seemed OK for a while and then the problem came back on the same side. Found this advice from Tom on the forum. I double checked to make sure the terminal connection was solid and moved the tilt wheel. I have not had a problem since.

[alini]

Are you sure it's the switch on the master cylinder and not an issue with the turn signal switch?   The power for the brake lights comes from the switch on the master to the turn signal switch which decides if they should flash or not.  So having lights on one side and not the other point me to the turn signal switch.   Others have already commented on your ground repair and you can do that too but I bet you need to remove the turn signal switch and spray some contact cleaner inside it and let the dry.  Then remount it.   

[RivNut]

You also have adjustments that can be made at the turn signal switch which sits on top of the steering column under the dash. Jim Cannon has commented on this and what is said above.  Could be two problems 1) cable for tilt wheel is broken.  2) turn signal switch is out of alignment.  If you have brake lights, then the bulb is good and your problem is one or both of the situations that I mentioned.  

 

Ford makes socket that will fit into the 1st generation tail light housings.  The Ford socket comes with a dedicated ground wire. 

[Guest Kaber]

Thanks guys,

 

Our car does NOT have tilt. Could the turn signal switch still be an issue? I haven't worked on it yet. It really acts like a socket issue, the pass side socket will barely hold the bulb. I like the additional ground Idea for the socket. The brake lights never worked without the car running. The Hyd. switch has been troublesome from the start. You have to really be into the brakes to get any light at all. I still thing a pedal mounted switch is the way to go. But now I am wondering about the turn signal switch?!?!

 

Also is there a source for the "Bent" wood wheel TS cancel pins? I have no cancelling and there is nothing in the hole. Are there dimensions available, I could probably make one or several if i had the dimensions. While i am working on this i may as well fix a few other things as well.

 

Thanks!

 

T

[alini]

Do your normal tail lights work....if those work without issue its not a ground problem its a power problem.   Try cycling the turn signal switch a few times and see if it gets better.  When I go to left turn I sometimes have to reset and do it again and then the signal works.  I need to adjust my switch

[RockinRiviDad]

I also accidentally stumbled on the fact that our brake lights & turn signals don't work unless ignition key is on. Engine shouldn't need to be running. 

 

I bought all metal replacement taillight sockets for my 65 at the "help" section of my local Pep Boys. I didn't like the plastic sockets pictures above. Those only have two grounding tabs. Adding ground wires fixes that or just buy the metal sockets which have multiple all metal tabs. 

 

That plus using Chris' (Alini) contact cleaner & cycling the turn signal switch advice fixed my problem. 

 

Be careful with that contact cleaner. As Chris mentioned, make sure it's dry (blow it dry with air nozzle) before u turn ignition key on to test them. I think I popped my fuse that way. 

[Guest Kaber]

On 9/4/2016 at 2:44 AM, RockinRiviDad said:

I also accidentally stumbled on the fact that our brake lights & turn signals don't work unless ignition key is on. Engine shouldn't need to be running. 

 

I bought all metal replacement taillight sockets for my 65 at the "help" section of my local Pep Boys. I didn't like the plastic sockets pictures above. Those only have two grounding tabs. Adding ground wires fixes that or just buy the metal sockets which have multiple all metal tabs. 

 

That plus using Chris' (Alini) contact cleaner & cycling the turn signal switch advice fixed my problem. 

 

Be careful with that contact cleaner. As Chris mentioned, make sure it's dry (blow it dry with air nozzle) before u turn ignition key on to test them. I think I popped my fuse that way. 

 

 

I would like to clean the turn signal switch. Do you have to remove the steering wheel in order to do this? I do have tail lamps, no stop on the pass side. I still think the brake lamps require too much brake force to illuminate, I even went with the lower PSI switch. My son wants to drive it one more time be fore going back to school this weekend so hopefully I can get it working for one more ride and then I'll have all winter to mess with it.

 

My plan is to :

1. Clean the turn signal switch (any more advice here would be great)

2. Replace and ground the Tail lamp sockets, either by adding the ground wire or checking the metal ones.

3. Move brake switch to the pedal.

4. I would also like to get the turn signals to cancel. (wood wheel, no pin. What does the pin look like/measure)

 

Thanks

Tim

[alini]

The turn signal switch is mounted at the base of the column on the gas pedal side.  Two 5/16 machine bolts hold it on and the actuating cable just slips over the actuating pin.  Take you longer to get under the dash than to actually remove it.   

Since you have parking lights you have good grounds on all sockets. So leave them alone.  You have a power issue and since the drivers side works all the time it's not the brake switch.   The only thing in between is the flasher unit and the turn signal switxh

remove it from the car and clean it inside with some contact cleaner.  It's just a plastic slice that slides inside the case. There are no integral parts but the metal contacts can get corroded especially if the signals not used much.  

When you reinstall the switch match sure the lever at the steering wheel is centered.  Place the switch into the actuating cable and then bolt it down.  Make sure the switch is centered too .  

[RivNut]

If you car has a tilt wheel, put some pressure on the brake pedal and run the wheel through all seven positions while someone watches the brake lights.  Do the same thing with each turn signal.  If you have brakes in one position and not others, then the switch just needs some adjustment.  I think it's Jim Cannon who says that the spring on the switch is typical Buick overkill, it's not really needed.  If you car has the tilt wheel, chances are that the housing surrounding the turn signal cable wire is broken.  No known fix yet that I'm aware of.

 

If your car doesn't have a tilt wheel, you can ignore the preceding paragraph.

 

Ed

 

FYI - 

Here's some comments from Jim that I found in a search:

 

This is a common problem with this column. Replacement turn signal actuating cables are quite rare. Used columns for parts usually have their cable broken, too. And if it is not yet broken, it will be after you put it in your car and tilt the wheel a few times.

I have been working on this problem and am in the middle of writing up an article for The Riview. I have been able to figure out a way to repair the broken cable and I have figured out a way for everyone to reduce the probability of their cable breaking. I am still in the middle of field testing my solutions, to see how durable they are.

BTW, it is the full tilt UP direction that seems to break them off, but the full DOWN tilt also puts a lot of strain on the plastic sheath right at the metal end of the cable, up in the steering column head. Try to avoid both extreme positions on your 1st gen. Riviera wheel to keep from breaking your cable.

Late in '63, Buick went to a thicker wall on the plastic cable sheath. This makes them more durable but not immune from breaking. That's why it seems to us to be mainly a '63 Riv problem. But it's not. If you keep moving any 1st gen Riv wheel to the extremes a lot, you, too, will have a broken actuator cable.

 

Here's a comment from Tom in the same thread

 

      If you don't manage a fix before you put the car into storage try this....place the tilt wheel in the position you would use while driving. Then adjust the turn signal switch position so all signals and brake lights function properly. With most collector cars there is really only one driver and that individual will always use the tilt in the same position. I have several `60`s cars which I have done this as a temporary repair meaning to one day get to a permanent repair. I havn`t done so because I am the only driver and it has not been an issue. I know this is not the answer you are looking for but it works. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

              OPGI sells replacement turn signal cables for Chevrolet Impalas. does anyone know if they might be the same

as the Riviera cables?

[Guest Kaber]

Thank you that is all good information but our car does NOT have a tilt wheel. I will consult my shop manual to locate switch, if it is not in the steering column.

 

Tim

Edited September 6, 2016 by Kaber (see edit history)

[steelman]

I agree with Chris, this is an electrical issue. One other thing to look for. There is a plug in the connection that goes to the rear of the car. Near or under the front driver's seat, under the carpet. May or may not have to remove the seat to find it. Clean this connection good and put it back together. I was having similar issues a few years ago with mine, and this was the problem.

Edited September 6, 2016 by steelman (see edit history)

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, Kaber said:

Thank you that is all good information but our car does NOT have a tilt wheel. I will consult my shop manual to locate switch, if it is not in the steering column.

 

Tim

Not in, but on.  

 

Steve is talking about the flat wire that runs under the carpet.  I bought a 66 from a guy on each who had a similar problem.  He replaced everything andone still had a problem so he decided it couldn't be fixed.  I bought the car, got the title in hand, then opened the trunk and plugged the flat wire all the way in.  The connector was loose on one side so the lights only worked on the other side.  Needless to say, the seller wasn't a happy camper when he saw me leave and all the lights were working.

[Guest Kaber]

UPDATE:

 

I went to PEP Boys and bought the metal Ford style tail lamp sockets. The included a spade connector built in for a ground wire. I replaced both my sockets with the Metal ones and added the ground wire to both sides. The bulb was stuck in Driver side original socket, The passenger side original socket as VERY loose. After doing this both tail lamps work and both brake lamps work! The Ford style socket is a robust design and I was pleased with the quality.

 

I still think it takes too much brake pedal pressure to activate the stop lamps! Cars has to be running (Not just ignition on, running) I assume for the added vacuum boost.  Then you have to be 1/2 way thru the brake pedal travel before the lamps illuminate, I have moved my pressure switch to the brake tee (dual master cylinder), and changed it to a lower pressure version. In the spring I will try a more contemporary switch on the pedal like a 64 up car. I'll just have to fabricate a bracket to hold the switch at the brake pedal and run the wires inside from the existing switch. I can always go back to the current set up if something doesn't work out. At least for the time being my son now has stop lamps!

 

T

 

 

[Turbinator]

On 9/2/2016 at 11:58 AM, RivNut said:

You also have adjustments that can be made at the turn signal switch which sits on top of the steering column under the dash. Jim Cannon has commented on this and what is said above.  Could be two problems 1) cable for tilt wheel is broken.  2) turn signal switch is out of alignment.  If you have brake lights, then the bulb is good and your problem is one or both of the situations that I mentioned.  

 

Ford makes socket that will fit into the 1st generation tail light housings.  The Ford socket comes with a dedicated ground wire. 

Ed, thanks again for direction. Seems like the tail light off and on problem is going to be my ultimate challenge for patience.

Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

On 9/6/2016 at 12:10 PM, Seafoam65 said:

              OPGI sells replacement turn signal cables for Chevrolet Impalas. does anyone know if they might be the same

as the Riviera cables?

Mr. sea foam, this is an old thread, but I still have problems with my tail lights. 

To your specific question ai do not know if the Impala turn signal actuating cable works or not. WHAT I DO REMEMBER IS someone found a GM air vent cable that they substituted for the turn signal Actuator cable for the RIVIERA. IM STILL in the process of tracking down the information. 2hen I find it I'll forward to you.

Red RIVIERA BOB

[Seafoam65]

Thanks Bob......keep us informed!