Packard Twin Six impressions

[scott12180]

Hi all --- 

 

I have the opportunity to acquire a Packard Twin Six.  This car is a 1916 1st Series 5-p Phaeton, older restoration that should be tour ready save for maintenance to wake it up after five years disuse.

 

Can anyone tell me if these make good tour cars ?  Could anyone share their opinions if they are fairly robust and reliable, or if they have weaknesses or major mechanical faults which are coming evident after 100 years?  Or are they just plain great cars?  

 

When I look it over, what should I look for or beware of?  Where are the Achilles Heels?

 

Anything you could share to help me be a more knowledgeable buyer will be much appreciated.

 

Thanks -- Scott

[JWLawrence]

Congratulations on the Twin Six. I believe the 1st Series had non-detachable cylinder heads. This was a common practice in the early days. Please keep us posted on the car and your adventures with it should you decide to buy. A great antique automobile!

 

(o{}o)

[60FlatTop]

The more you drive it the better it will run. The better it runs the faster it likes to go. Between 60 and 65 is where you reach the limits of the top tie downs. THAT can be a real surprise!

Bernie

[Mark Shaw]

I am not sure of the year, but I know that some Twin Sixes cannot run in hot weather due to the routing of the fuel line between the manifolds.  I heard that several years ago at a Twin Six meet, the only car that could run had a fuel bypass system to keep it from vapor locking.

[West Peterson]

Post 1915 vehicles will not be eligible for some tours, so the 1915 and earlier cars may be a little more valuable.

[nzcarnerd]

From my very limited experience of driving a Twin Six I found it very difficult to judge the engine speed.  Most old cars with less cylinders you can 'feel' them through the seat of your pants and judge when to shift gears etc.  The Twin Six is completely different.  It will just take longer to get used to.

[Guest AlCapone]

One of my favorite cars, I have been negotiating fir one for six months. Wayne

[Ivan Saxton]

You might refer to p236 of Ralph Stein's 1967 book, "The Great Cars". He wrote that he had then driven Henry Austin Clark's Twin Six, and compared its practicality to the current cars then, except the lack of four wheel brakes. I have engine, transmission, instruments, fuel tank, rear hubs and brake drums from what was a good runabout with Rudge Whitworth 100mm wire wheels until a large tree fell across it in the shed where it was stored. The people who found it only saved what was not damaged. I have enough to rebuild it, with a runabout body but a rather sad and rustly chassis frame that is the wrong wheelbase. This will need some careful work to repair as the correct short wheelbase, because the length difference is in the main tapered section of the frame. I am fortunate to have a braked Rudge Whitworth front axle from one of the first straight 8s of the changeover from the Twin Six. ( my engine has a 1922 casting date.) I do not apologise for fitting the 1923 Eight Front stubs and brakes to the Twin Six front axle; because in modern traffic it is more comfortable if a car with good performance stops as well as it goes.

[scott12180]

Concerning HCCA eligibility,

I think that HCCA tours accept cars manufactured in the 1915 calendar year.  So the only eligible Twin Sixes could be a 1916 first series.  And I think that Packard announced the Twin Six in something like May 1915, so a good number were built in 1915.  I've seen photos in the Gazette of a few 1st Series Twins on tours, and the HCCA roster lists a few Twin Sixes which presumably fit that criteria.

 

Good advice on the brakes.  Probably a sound reason to have new tires on the rear, especially ,to get as much new, soft rubber gripping the road as possible.

[John_S_in_Penna]

I say, don't let the 1916 year dissuade you!

Because pre-1916 are eligible for the Horseless

Carriage Club, many nice 1916 and later cars

tend to be overlooked in today's hobby.

 

I own a 1916 car of a different make.

These cars need caring owners who will use and show them.

Go where others fear to tread!

[West Peterson]

John. I agree, and only brought up the subject to make sure Scott went into this with eyes wide open. So if you're looking to participate on HCCA tours, you DO need to consider it.

Scott, you are correct that some "1916" Twin Six Packards are eligible, based on build date.

[Walt G]

CCCA now recognizes many of cars of the 1915-24 era since the majority of the membership voted to do so at the annual meeting in 2015.

so these cars , such as the Packard in question, would be welcome on CARavans etc as well as Grand Classics and other club events. There is a Passport

Driving incentive as well that you can get from headquarters that has been place since last year where you note your mileage in a "passport" booklet available from headquarters

and will receive recognition for every 1,000+ miles driven. There are many tours in all parts of the country organized and offered each year, CCCA strongly

encourages all members to drive their cars.

[scott12180]

I had heard that CCCA extended it's eligibility to certain earlier cars.  Whereas I agree this is a good thing to recognize some fine makes prior to 1925, Packard included, I have to wonder if the CCCA will host tours which are amenable to these earlier cars?  Or will the early cars be touring with the 1941 Cadillacs?

 

I ask this because I used to belong to the CCCA.  I owned a 1926 Packard 8 Phaeton at the time, but I never felt that I could take the car on a CCCA tour.  The tours seemed to involve high speed highways and distances which were perfectly fine for 1940s Packards and Cadillacs  and similar, but would not be appropriate for a car with a comfortable cruising speed in the low 40 mph range.

 

I'd like to see the CCCA host a pre-1930 tour to encourage people owning these earlier cars to join the club and participate.  Are they doing that now?  Could someone clue me in?  I'd love to join if I felt welcome.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Scott, the club Packard Automobile Classics

(www.packardclub.org) has "roster keepers" for

all ages of Packards.  You could ask the club

for specific strengths and weaknesses of the

Twin Six before you buy.  Surely there are some

real specialized experts there.

 

And the roster keeper for 1916 may even know

the very car you're looking at!

 

I don't know club members personally, but you could contact

them through their website. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

I should have thought of it before: You should talk to Tim Martin, who keeps the Roster of Twin Six Packards. He is in Vermont. If you cannot find his contact data, ask me by private Message.

[nzcarnerd]

Ivan, Tim is aware of this one. The last email I had from him on the subject was on Tuesday last and he seemed to think he knew Scott.

[scott12180]

I appreciate the suggestions to contact Roster Keepers, and yes I do know Tim and others.  With all respects to the Roster Keepers, and they are many, the Roster Keepers keep the roster.  They aren't technical specialists.  Tim knows the car I am interested in but did not suggest that he knew anything about the mechanical aspects of Twin Sizes --- the first versus second versus third series. 

 

Is there a Twin Six expert in the world today?  I knew Brad Skinner of Bartlesville, Oklahoma years ago.  He was THE Twin Six expert.  But he's been gone for some time.  Is there anyone who can really give honest, unbiased advice on the merits and cautions of the various Twins? 

 

I'd also like to know what people are doing to keep, say, the first and second series on the road.  The carburetor in that tight "V" is a problem, but I can't believe that it is insurmountable.  How about heat shielding?  How about gasoline re-circulation?  How about ducting cool air to the carburetor?  Is anyone actually driving a Twin Six these days or are they all museum pieces?

Edited February 29, 2016 by scott12180 (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Doesn't the club also have technical advisors?

Many clubs do, and some are better than others.

[Walt G]

Scott, re your comment about CCCA tours, and can someone 'clue you in' as to if they will have tours to accommodate the earlier cars.  We spoke in person about this when you visited me and I went into detail about the plans that are "in the works" by CCCA, so you should already know the answer to that.!?!  The CCCA Classification committee is still determining what 1915-24 era cars , both domestic and European will now be eligible and welcome input from the membership as has been mentioned in their publications for the past year. We had 3 pre 1924 cars participate at the annual meeting in Michigan in January. It is an all volunteer board just like other clubs and things take time to get it right the first time around. Why not rejoin CCCA and volunteer to help organize a pre 1930 tour since you are familiar with the road capabilities of cars of that era ? It is understandable to want tours, publications etc from the club you pay your annual does to, but sometimes you have to "give back" even if it only with advice on how to do something , and not just sit back and wait to be entertained .

[DonMicheletti]

Years ago I had a friend with a '17 Twin Six. He had the carb heating problem. Our solution was to make a asbestos / aluminum "sandwitch that fit beneath the carb to shield it from the heat. It worked great.

You could "cheat" like heck today to fabricate something similar.

 

The car was a fantistic drive.. provided you werent too serious about stopping!

[scott12180]

>> It is understandable to want tours, publications etc from the club you pay your annual does to, but sometimes you have to "give back" even if it only with advice on how to do something , and not just sit back and wait to be entertained .

 

Walt knows me and knows that I've "given  back" to the Franklin Club a lot over the 35-some years I've been involved.  I've never been one to just take, and trust that Walt's comments were not directed at me but voiced in general.  Anyone who participates should feel an obligation to contribute.

 

If the CCCA is serious about not only admitting pre-1925 cars to the ranks but organizing tours for them, I would very much like to organize a tour in the Albany, NY--western VT--western MA area.  This is a beautiful part of the country with miles of great roads that I usually drive on all alone.  Let's see if we can get some interest in 1916-1930 cars generated.

 

But first, back to that Twin Six. . . .

[Ivan Saxton]

I suggested Tim's name because he probably knows well the numbers that would establish the age of the car you have been considering. I guess the main club-related consideration might be full eligibility for HCCA tours. Apart from this I guess you look at mechanical changes. The change to detacheable head cylinder blocks improved service considerations. The important design factor which came with the 3rd Series was the change from rear "platform" springs to semi-elliptic.

Platform springs allow the lateral position of the rear axle to be more elastic than would be considered ideal; and it is not a something I would boast of as a benefical feature of the early Cadillacs I have. As to heat shielding to stop fuel vaporizing, there are a range of things you can do, right up to shielding deflectors treated with such heat barrier ceramic coatings that make jet and rocket engines practically viable. But simplest is often most useful.

The other thing Tim can do is indicate which owners you can talk to who use or have used their Twin Six in an appropriate season and climate. ( It is sadly impossible to consult Csar Nickolas, whose 1917 had its rear wheels driving half-tracks, and whose steering was by front wheel-skis.