Car won't idle...

[hddennis]

Check out these in-depth instructions:

http://modelabasics.com/Carb/ZenithCarburetorOverhaul2011-2007.pdf

Howard Dennis

[capngrog]

Have you done any trouble shooting of the ignition system as suggested by cahartley in his Posts #15 and #17? When I first started working on and learning about cars as a teenager, an old, experienced, professional mechanic told me: "Son, if it don't run right, check the ignition. If it still don't run right, check the ignition again. If, after all of that, it still don't run right, check the ignition one more time." Over the years, I've found this to be really good advice.

Good luck,

Grog

[dictator27]

I second what capngrog said above. When I took my pre-apprenticeship automotive training (before you were born ), my instructor told the class that 90% of all "carburetor" problems can be traced to the ignition system. Like capngrog, I have found that to be true more often than not.

Have you checked the condition of the points, and the point gap? How about the coil? Maybe it open circuits when it warms up. Ditto the condenser.

Having said that, you say there is good gas flow when the gas line is disconnected and the petcock opened. You also say there is a white sludge in the carb. Drain some gas into a clear glass jar and let it sit for a couple of hours. Does that sludge settle out as well as rust/dirt particles? If they do, a pre unleaded gas tank sealer may have been used. Unleaded gas will dissolve early tank sealers.

On your fan belt problem, I'm presuming you have a flat leather fan belt on your Maxwell. I have owned my 27 Studebaker Dictator since 1966. It has a flat leather fan belt. Guess what? It stretches!! No surprise, that's what leather does. Adjusting it is almost a daily exercise. As well, the fan will gradually move out until it contacts the radiator core. It has been like that since 1966 - probably years before that. Just part of the game, plus I am what is referred to on another forum as a CASO - Cheap Ass Studebaker Owner!! (Did I say the A word?) :eek:

Terry

[Dwight Romberger]

I stole this without permission from: http://modelabasics.com/carb%20basics%202.htm#carbTrouble

After reading this page:

Visit the fordgarage.com for historical and detailed information.

Visit Model-A.org for further problem solving.

Carburetor Basics

Suction created by the pumping of the pistons, causes fuel and air to flow through the carburetor into the engine. Each Alternate downward stroke draws in a fresh charge of mixed fuel and air.

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[TD]The throttle plate manages the amount of air flow that is delivered to the engine and is controlled by the "Throttle Lever" and "Accelerator" inside the cab.

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[TD]Pulling on the Carburetor Adjustment Knob, often called the GAV (Gas Air Valve) inside the cab opens and closes the Choke Plate. Turning the GAV enriches or leans the fuel mixture flowing through the "Cap Jet".[/TD]

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[TD]When the engine is started with the choke closed a greater vacuum is formed, pulling in a larger amount of fuel.

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Fuel Flow

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[TD=colspan: 2]GREEN: Adjustable fuel supply for Cap Jet

BLUE: Predetermined fuel supply by Compensator Jet for Cap Jet and Idle Jet

RED: Direct fuel supply for Main Jet (Used for High Speeds)

YELLOW: Ambient air to fuel bowl

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[TD]Running

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The “Compensating Jet” is inside the fuel bowl and empties into the “Secondary Well” which is open to the air. The “Cap Jet” connects with the “Secondary Well”. The “Cap Jet” can only draw as much fuel as the “Compensating Jet” will allow, regardless of the amount of suction.

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The "Cap Jet" has an additional fuel supply from the "Fuel Bowl". The flow rate of the fuel to the "Cap Jet" is controlled inside the cab with the "GAV" adjustment knob. Turning it left (towards the driver) enriches the fuel mixture for the "Cap Jet". The "Cap Jet" is used at low speeds.

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The “Main Jet” is connected directly to the "Fuel Bowl". It acts like a straw; the stronger the suction the greater amount of fuel will be supplied. The "Main Jet" kicks in and helps out the "Cap Jet" at higher speeds. When cruising, the "Cap Jet" can be leaned out (turn right) to conserve on fuel.

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[TD]Idling occurs when the "Throttle Plate" is partially open. A vacuum above the plate is created, drawing air through a small hole, which pulls the gas from the secondary well through the "Idle Jet".[/TD]

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Assembly

Trouble Shooting

Stalls When Stopping

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[TD=colspan: 3]Restoration Tips by Tom Endy

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Carb Restoration

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[TD=width: 81%]Zenith cores are easily found at swap meets. Most are usually in a cruddy rusty condition. However, if they are not damaged they can easily be restored. It is prudent to look them over carefully to make certain the top and bottom housings are not cracked or broken.

Large file, but worth the download wait.

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Zenith Passageways

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[TD]Zenith carburetor documentation: Good grief! Another article on the Model A Ford Zenith carburetor. Enough already! There must be a whole floor in the library of congress devoted to articles written about this carburetor. But wait! If you are into rebuilding Zenith carburetors you might want to read this. This article is about an easy way to check if the internal passageways in the carburetor are open or plugged.[/TD]

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[mrcvs]

I second what capngrog said above. When I took my pre-apprenticeship automotive training (before you were born ), my instructor told the class that 90% of all "carburetor" problems can be traced to the ignition system. Like capngrog, I have found that to be true more often than not.

Have you checked the condition of the points, and the point gap? How about the coil? Maybe it open circuits when it warms up. Ditto the condenser.

Having said that, you say there is good gas flow when the gas line is disconnected and the petcock opened. You also say there is a white sludge in the carb. Drain some gas into a clear glass jar and let it sit for a couple of hours. Does that sludge settle out as well as rust/dirt particles? If they do, a pre unleaded gas tank sealer may have been used. Unleaded gas will dissolve early tank sealers.

On your fan belt problem, I'm presuming you have a flat leather fan belt on your Maxwell. I have owned my 27 Studebaker Dictator since 1966. It has a flat leather fan belt. Guess what? It stretches!! No surprise, that's what leather does. Adjusting it is almost a daily exercise. As well, the fan will gradually move out until it contacts the radiator core. It has been like that since 1966 - probably years before that. Just part of the game, plus I am what is referred to on another forum as a CASO - Cheap Ass Studebaker Owner!! (Did I say the A word?) :eek:

Terry

Yes, they are leather and they do stretch. But the belt really is not adjustable as it is a bunch of wire 'clasps' held together with a pin. That would still be okay if you can get some distance, but it doesn't take long for it to stretch out (like 1 or 2 miles) and I cannot afford a new belt every 2 miles. I have belts that are about impossible to get on as I have them as short as possible, and STILL they stretch to the max really quickly.

As far as ignition problems go, it is just me working on this car. It is hard to assess what is going on with the ignition when I am in the car trying to start it and not up front assessing the quality of the spark, condenser, etc. Besides, this is a little over my head right now.

Edited August 24, 2014 by mrcvs (see edit history)

[cahartley]

As for your fan belt check out my thread there >>> http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/226858.html?1311951546 .......

You can do all the ignition checking you need to do from the engine.

Remove the distributor cap, with the ignition off crank the engine until the points are closed.

Remove the cap end of the high tension lead that comes from the coil to the cap.

Turn on the juice, hold the loose end of the wire that comes from the coil about 1/4" (a GOOD spark should jump a 3/8" air gap) away from the engine block and open the points manually and repeatedly.

If the spark weakens you have found the problem but not the cause as it could be either the condenser or coil.

By the way........do you have WIRE wire spark plug wires?

Edited August 24, 2014 by cahartley (see edit history)

[hddennis]

As for your fan belt check out my thread there >>> http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/226858.html?1311951546 .......

You can do all the ignition checking you need to do from the engine.

Remove the distributor cap, with the ignition off crank the engine until the points are closed.

Remove the cap end of the high tension lead that comes from the coil to the cap.

Turn on the juice, hold the loose end of the wire that comes from the coil about 1/4" (a GOOD spark should jump a 3/8" air gap) away from the engine block and open the points manually and repeatedly.

If the spark weakens you have found the problem but not the cause as it could be either the condenser or coil.

By the way........do you have WIRE wire spark plug wires?

You are getting some amazingly detailed help on this problem. When you calm down and aren't so pi$$ed off, study the answers and learn from them. This last post is aimed at you finding out if you have an ignition problem.so when you do it you will know what to do next.

I'm going back to the carburetor and found this to check out: http://modelabasics.com/Carb/ZenithPassageways.pdf It's up to you to find and check out each individual passage.

This stuff happens to us all. I've just come off 6 weeks of frustration on trying to start my Maxwell for the first time, ended up being a grounding problem in the New Old Stock distributor which I was positive WASN'T the problem because it was new. Then I ran into problems trying to get my K D carburetor to run right, still working on that as I finally resorted to a Model A Tillotson carb just to get it running.

Now it runs but doesn't seem to be charging. I asked for help on this forum with a question that required a yes or no answer. 60,000 members on here and I'm pretty sure at least 10 percent knew that answer but NOT 1 single online answer! (Not real happy with that!) Luckily a really knowledgeable old car person offered to help me privately, we are still sorting this out.

I've only had this car ready to run for a few weeks and I'm already on my 3rd professional leather fan belt. Mine stretch and warp till they walk off the pulleys. John Knox:http://www.leatherdrivebelts.com/ He made mine and refuses to take payment on the last two as he guarantees his belts for life and offers free shortening on the belts when they stretch.

Sorry for the rant but I just wanted to show we all get discouraged from time to time but someone in this community will always step up to help, it just may take some time. Good Luck.

Howard Dennis

Edited August 24, 2014 by hddennis (see edit history)

[mrcvs]

You are getting some amazingly detailed help on this problem. When you calm down and aren't so pi$$ed off, study the answers and learn from them. This last post is aimed at you finding out if you have an ignition problem.so when you do it you will know what to do next.

I'm going back to the carburetor and found this to check out: http://modelabasics.com/Carb/ZenithPassageways.pdf It's up to you to find and check out each individual passage.

This stuff happens to us all. I've just come off 6 weeks of frustration on trying to start my Maxwell for the first time, ended up being a grounding problem in the New Old Stock distributor which I was positive WASN'T the problem because it was new. Then I ran into problems trying to get my K D carburetor to run right, still working on that as I finally resorted to a Model A Tillotson carb just to get it running.

Now it runs but doesn't seem to be charging. I asked for help on this forum with a question that required a yes or no answer. 60,000 members on here and I'm pretty sure at least 10 percent knew that answer but NOT 1 single online answer! (Not real happy with that!) Luckily a really knowledgeable old car person offered to help me privately, we are still sorting this out.

I've only had this car ready to run for a few weeks and I'm already on my 3rd professional leather fan belt. Mine stretch and warp till they walk off the pulleys. John Knox:http://www.leatherdrivebelts.com/ He made mine and refuses to take payment on the last two as he guarantees his belts for life and offers free shortening on the belts when they stretch.

Sorry for the rant but I just wanted to show we all get discouraged from time to time but someone in this community will always step up to help, it just may take some time. Good Luck.

Howard Dennis

John Knox is amazing! He won't take payments on faulty belts and will shorten for free on multiple occasions. But, they keep stretching and stretching...

[mrcvs]

How do you crank the engine so that the points are closed? Then how do you open the points manually and repeatedly?

My spark plug 'wires' are flat bands, pronged at the end.

[cahartley]

^ If you remove all the spark plugs you SHOULD be able to turn over the engine using the fan.

Open and close the points manually.....use a popsicle stick, a pencil, a finger........anything to operate the points.

[mrcvs]

Regarding a local club, the New Tripoli one is nearby. My problem now is that I really wish I had been attending it for years so that, when I have a problem such as this I am a regular member rather than the 'stranger' who shows up and just wants help.

[cahartley]

It it's a club worth belonging to they'll be happy to help a new member....... .......after all it's young guys like you who are the future of the hobby.

[hddennis]

How do you crank the engine so that the points are closed? Then how do you open the points manually and repeatedly?

My spark plug 'wires' are flat bands, pronged at the end.

Sounds like you need to get a hand crank for your Model A. Your Maxwell has it built in but the Model A had a crank usually stored under the seat. You need it for an occasion like this and it is also how you time your engine which you need to learn how to do. With the crank you stand in front with the hood open and the distributor bakelite cap & cover removed and turn your engine over and watch the distributor cam which has 4 lobes until the fiber rubbing block on the point arm is directly in the middle of 2 lobes and that is the closed position of your points. When the rubbing block is dead center of a lobe is when you set your point gap.

Howard Dennis

. .

[dictator27]

How do you crank the engine so that the points are closed? Then how do you open the points manually and repeatedly?

My spark plug 'wires' are flat bands, pronged at the end.

If you do as cahartley said in post #46 while holding the plug wire, it doesn't matter if it is a "normal" wire or a Model A strip, in either case you could get a pretty solid jolt when you open the points. Electricity takes the route with the least resistance and that could easily be you if the gap between the end of the wire and ground is too big. A pair of pliers or a screwdriver with insulated handles could be used.

Did your A come with a crank? You can even get a reasonable indication of spark quality at the points themselves. Turn the engine until the points close, get one of the wife's wooden skewers, turn on the ignition and open the points. You should hear a good "snap" and see a good "hot" blue spark. If the spark seems rather lazy and is yellow, that is a weak spark and in dictates a problem with the condenser or coil.

By the way, a prerequisite for this hobby is a good sense of humour! Keep at it, the solution is probably looking right at you.

Terry

[mrcvs]

Sounds like you need to get a hand crank for your Model A. Your Maxwell has it built in but the Model A had a crank usually stored under the seat. You need it for an occasion like this and it is also how you time your engine which you need to learn how to do. With the crank you stand in front with the hood open and the distributor bakelite cap & cover removed and turn your engine over and watch the distributor cam which has 4 lobes until the fiber rubbing block on the point arm is directly in the middle of 2 lobes and that is the closed position of your points. When the rubbing block is dead center of a lobe is when you set your point gap.

Howard Dennis

. .

I will have to look again for the hand crank, or buy one. I think I looked for it and could not find it. Which reminds me WHY I was looking for it. I have been starting the Maxwell with the built-in hand crank as the electric starter doesn't work anymore. What should I do to fix that?

Add in the Smith & Wesson Triple Lock I have with the frozen lock (I am ordering Kroil for this) and this place ought to be called 'The Land of Nothing that Runs'. LOL!

[cahartley]

ATTA boy! Keep smilin'.......

[Beltfed]

Look at it this way, "If it were easy, women and children would be doing it." That would take all the fun out of it as some of us use these old cars, grease, oil, etc. to get a break from the wife and kids. With that said, I'll jump on any chance to get a young'en into the garage to teach them something other that pushing buttons on one of their electronic devices.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

The secondary wires on the coil are red and black. The red should be on the passenger side. If they are switched it might run but not well.

[hddennis]

I will have to look again for the hand crank, or buy one. I think I looked for it and could not find it. Which reminds me WHY I was looking for it. I have been starting the Maxwell with the built-in hand crank as the electric starter doesn't work anymore. What should I do to fix that?

Add in the Smith & Wesson Triple Lock I have with the frozen lock (I am ordering Kroil for this) and this place ought to be called 'The Land of Nothing that Runs'. LOL!

It could be your starter needs rebuilding or it could be your starter switch isn't delivering 12volts to your starter. Make sure your batteries are wired up like this diagram, and then get a multi-meter and make sure when you step on the starter switch it is delivering 12volts at starter switch terminal # 11. If it is then you need to remove the starter and take it to a rebuilder to be tested.

Howard Dennis