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1926 Standard 6 brakes setup

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A couple of days ago I took my 1926 Standard 6 for its first drive. The car was restored by the previous owner. When driving it the brakes hardly work at all, except when in reverse and they work well. Upon inspection it would appear that the brake rods have been modified resulting in the front brakes not being able to operate. Someone has cut the rod linking the rear cross shaft to the front brakes and then welded the front half of the rods to a little plate which in turn they have bolted to the chassis. This results in the front rods not being able to move.

This car has the brakes with the booster from the rear of the gearbox(transmission), does anyone have any diagrams or photos of the correct setup, so that I can put mine as it should be.

I have checked all of the books I have and can't find a clear drawing of how it all should look. I will get the car over my pit later today and take some pictures of what I have so anyone with something similar can tell me what maybe wrong

Any help would be appreciated.

Wayne

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Does anyone have any drawings of how this setup is laid out? I am still no further forward. Also any information on how the hydraulic pump in the transmission works would be greatly received.

Regards Wayne

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Hi Wayne

I'm 1500 kilometres away from my manuals at the moment. I will be home by the 13th of this month and will be in touch then.

Terry

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I found some Bendix Brake sheets.

Are you sure it a a ER?

I did not know that they were available with the optional hydraulic brakes

They have a 1927 date and I do not know how much different the brakes are.

You can see the rods etc.

I have them for 1928 and 1932 also.

The Studebaker Service manuals has info on the pump mounted on the transmission but nothing

on the brake rods.

Hope this helps.

Bob

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The 4 wheel brakes were available on all Big (model EP), Special (model EQ) and Standard Sixes (model ER) starting in the 1925 model year (starting August 1924). These cars are distinguishable from those with 2-wheel brakes by the fact that they had disc wheels whereas the 2-wheel cars were wood spoke. All cars so equipped came with a 12 page supplement to the owners manual shown below. Would be glad to copy for you. If interested send me a PM.

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Thanks to Richard I now have a copy of the Studebaker Hydraulic 4 wheel brakes brochure for my car. I thought it would be easier to post an explanation on here as to what I have rather than reply individually to the people who have tried to help, but I do thank you all for your input!!

I have taken the following pictures showing what I have and then what I should have. The picture with the rods illustrates how mine is now, the blue lines are non-original rods, pivots and linkages, the red lines are rods that have been removed.

Originally the rear brakes were mechanically operated via rods from the brake pedal, then as an addition there is a pump in the gearbox(transmission) of the car which when the brake pedal is applied makes 2 pistons eject from the gearbox housing, applying pressure to the brake rods acting on both the front and rear brakes brakes. This added pressure assists the driver by increasing the braking pressure.

However on my Studebaker someone at some time in its life has removed the control valve which makes the pistons come out and then made up new rods linking the rear brake rods to the front brakes. In theory this is ok, however the leverages involved are incorrect resulting in the brakes not working properly. The pedal needs to travel further than it has room to travel, in order to make this set up work.

Where the control rod enters the gearbox, someone has blanked off the hole with a plug brazed over the hexagon end (see pic) What I need to do is find a control valve, and the lever which operates this from the brake pedal (valve contra operated by brake pedal in illustration).

I do wonder why was it changed, is there a problem with how it works which is why it has been disconnected, or did something break?

Any help would be appreciated because as of now I haven't been able to drive the car as the brakes don't come up to England's standards, hence it won't pass an MOT (inspection).

If anyone has a complete transmission or just the part with the control valve, and oil pump etc attached, I would be interested in buying it

Regards

Wayne

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Hi Wayne

I'm still not home yet due to a family situation. Right now it is anyone's guess why the hydraulic system was de-activated. Possibly someone in the past was uncomfortable with the fact that the brakes work in reverse to the normal way. Light pedal pressure, particularly at speeds over 25 mph, will immediately lock up the brakes. Heavy pedal pressure, as in a panic stop, does not produce the same response. You still stop - just not as quickly. The trick is remembering that! There is little assist at low speeds.

You haven't said anything about it, so I presume you don't have a gauge on the dash simply labeled "pressure". I think only 1925 ER's had it. It would be the left lower of four small gauges. This was for the hydraulic assist, and indicated a maximum pressure of 25 psi.

Hopefully home by the middle of next week.

Terry

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Terry I have now taken the rear section off of the transmission and dismantled it. It appears that only the control piston, the pressure relief valve spring and the lever which attaches to the brake rod, are missing, so from the pictures I have I am going to get a machine shop to make me a valve cylinder and the brake rod lever. I have the gears, the pistons etc. I have also removed one of the pistons from underneath and this was very bunged up with sludge and it took quite a bit of back and forth action to finally get it to come out. It smells as though gear oil has been used in the transmission, not engine oil, like it states in the manual sent to me by Richard. Maybe this slowed up the response of the braking system. Or as you say maybe it caused some confusion hence taken off. I once had a 1926 Chrysler with the gas pedal in the middle, I had no problem with this but a friend of mine really struggled to drive it.

Once sorted I plan to clean out the transmission and fill back up with engine oil as recommended.

As for a gauge, I don't have on on the dash, the only pressure gauge is the engine oil which is 0 - 6lb and has been disconnected, with a modern gauge fitted under the dash.

Regards

Wayne

Hi Wayne

I'm still not home yet due to a family situation. Right now it is anyone's guess why the hydraulic system was de-activated. Possibly someone in the past was uncomfortable with the fact that the brakes work in reverse to the normal way. Light pedal pressure, particularly at speeds over 25 mph, will immediately lock up the brakes. Heavy pedal pressure, as in a panic stop, does not produce the same response. You still stop - just not as quickly. The trick is remembering that! There is little assist at low speeds.

You haven't said anything about it, so I presume you don't have a gauge on the dash simply labeled "pressure". I think only 1925 ER's had it. It would be the left lower of four small gauges. This was for the hydraulic assist, and indicated a maximum pressure of 25 psi.

Hopefully home by the middle of next week.

Terry

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Hi Wayne

Finally home!

Looking at your photos. the illustrations you have provided and the illustrations in my service manual, all I can say is yikes - what were they thinking with these modifications?

I'll start with some basic info from my manual. Engine oil is used in transmissions equipped with the hydraulic system. The manual does not specify a grade, merely saying medium weight for warm weather used and light weight for cold weather. I think I would be inclined to use a single grade non detergent oil. I would think that 40 weight would be a good number. I can understand why someone would have put in heavy transmission oil.

Clearance tolerances given are .003 to .007 for news parts for the pump pistons. There is no clearance info for the control valve, but I would say the same would apply. In service clearance is a maximum of .010.

Operating pressure is a minimum of 70 and a maximum of 75 psi. I said 25 psi above! Obviously can't trust my ancient memory.

Terry

Edited by dictator27 (see edit history)

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Terry thanks for the information. Tonight I took the castings to a machinist and he is going to make me a piston for the control valve. I am not 100% sure on the length and so am getting it made too long with the recess for the operating lever grove, I can then reduce the length once fitted to suit how the operating lever works.

I will also have to make an operating lever, I will post some pics once completed.

I do have some straight 40 grade oil so will use this when reassembled

Wayne

Hi Wayne

Finally home!

Looking at your photos. the illustrations you have provided and the illustrations in my service manual, all I can say is yikes - what were they thinking with these modifications?

I'll start with some basic info from my manual. Engine oil is used in transmissions equipped with the hydraulic system. The manual does not specify a grade, merely saying medium weight for warm weather used and light weight for cold weather. I think I would be inclined to use a single grade non detergent oil. I would think that 40 weight would be a good number. I can understand why someone would have put in heavy transmission oil.

Clearance tolerances given are .003 to .007 for news parts for the pump pistons. There is no clearance info for the control valve, but I would say the same would apply. In service clearance is a maximum of .010.

Operating pressure is a minimum of 70 and a maximum of 75 psi. I said 25 psi above! Obviously can't trust my ancient memory.

Terry

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Yesterday I received the new shaft for the control valve. I have this evening fitted it all together and ran the engine with the prop shaft (drive shaft) disconnected. The pistons are going in and out as they should, the only problem is that oil is pouring out from behind the transmission brake drum.

When I say pouring it took about 30 seconds to empty the transmission. Looking in the books I can't see an oil seal in this location so I am now assuming that the pressure relief valve has too strong a spring behind it so not lifting and therefore it is forcing the oil out this way.

When the transmission had the control valve missing, someone had also removed the pressure relief valve spring, just leaving the ball bearing. Being a 1926 model it doesn't have the pressure valve on the dash, so I am going to play tomorrow with different tension springs and hopefully find something suitable that makes the pistons work without forcing oil everywhere.

Wayne

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Hi Wayne

Some more info regarding the hydraulic brakes.

Adjust the brake pedal height so that there is a distance of 5 inches between the underside of the pedal pad and the toe board. The hydraulic feature operates in the first 2 inches of pedal travel, the remaining 3 inches are mechanical brake travel. A maximum pressure of 75 pounds should be obtained at a road speed of 30 mph. A gauge can be installed in the port just below the relief valve. The pump operating valve should completely close the bypass port when the pedal has been depressed between 1 5/8 to 2 inches.

To check the proper travel of the pump operating valve, pull out the valve and remove the packing nut. Using a scale which can be hooked over the outer edge of the bypass port, measure the distance from that point to the edge of the valve cylinder. Measure a similar distance from the inner end of the valve and put a mark on the valve at that point. Reassemble the valve and rod without the packing nut. The mark on the valve should be exactly at the outer edge of the cylinder with the brake pedal released. If not, minor adjustments can be made by bending the pedal to valve operating rod. (Later vehicles had an adjustable clevis on this rod.)

Hope this is useful.

Terry

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Today I have stripped it all apart, assuming I would find something obvious, but no. I removed the brake drum and where it goes into the rear casting there is a reverse spiral, this is all clean. At the inner edge of the spiral there is a little trough with a hole going into where the pump gears are located. I assume this is so if there is a little leak any oil will find its way back in. I believe that for some reason oil is being pumped out of this hole and causing my problem. The hole is on the sucking side of the gears so it should draw oil in rather than pump it out.

Having studied the diagrams on how it all works I was wondering if the gearbox its self is being pressurised and so pushing oil out, but leaving the filler plug out disproved this theory.

Here is a pic showing where the hole is that I think the oil is coming out of. It is the little red dot in the pic

Wayne

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Hi Wayne

This might have something to do with the rapid loss of oil. When the rear cover is replaced, the service manual recommends installing the transmission flange without the brake drum attached. Tighten the bolts just enough that the cover won't move sideways and then rotate the trans output shaft to see if there is a binding condition. If binding is noticed, tap the housing lightly with a hammer to centre the housing on the output shaft and eliminate the binding condition. Tighten the bolts and install the brake drum.

It is quite likely that cover has been removed in the past and not properly centred on reassembly.

Terry

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Terry I did exactly that when fitting it all together, and it still leaked.

What I was considering doing was blocking off the little drain hole that I put in red on the pic above, and then seeing if it still leaks, if it does I will know that it isn't leaking from there and so must be coming out of the casting around the shaft, if it does stop I know it is from that little hole.

Last night I stripped the whole thing apart to see if there was maybe a blockage in one of the oil ways, stopping oil from flowing in the correct way, but no blockage was found.

I was also wondering if the thickness of gasket makes a difference. I am using the thinest gasket material I could find, which is about .005". I do have some that is about .020" thick and so was wondering if that would make a difference.

The other thing I was wondering is, when the 2 castings are together with the top bronze pump gear between them the gear can move forward and back a few thous, should this be shimmed behind the gear to stop this?

I am now starting to pull my hair out with all of this!!!!

Wayne

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Hi Wayne

I checked my service manual to see if it said anything about pump gear end play. It doesn't, it only lists backlash between the gears as a maximum of .015 and clearance between the idler gear and idler gear shaft as .005 maximum. The only other thing I found was the size of the pressure relief valve check ball which is .750.

My parts book only lists one gasket in terms of thickness and there is nothing said about using thinner gaskets to correct excessive end play in the gears. Obviously, as little as possible is desired. No mention is made about a bronze washer behind the idler to control endplay. I thought maybe there is an oil slinger missing, but no mention of that either.

:confused: I dunno!! It's probably something obvious when it is finally sorted out. Patience is a virtue, so they say.

Terry

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Looking at the big 6 parts book (I don't have one for the standard 6) there is a felt washer behind the transmission flange which the transmission drum bolts to. Does anyone know if there should be the same felt washer on the standard 6.

In the big 6 book it is described as "Transmission case rear flange or parking brake bracket felt washer" and is part number 110382,

there is also a retainer item number 110381 and a lock wire number 110387

If anyone has a standard 6 parts book to hand, can they check if there is a similar part listed, or even better scan the page in so I can see what I am missing, if anything

Thanks

Wayne

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A few illustrations from the Studebaker Service Library. I cannot say for sure whether the Standard Six had the felt washer but do not see one listed in the parts book. Can also tell you that there is nothing that will interchange between the Big 6 and Standard 6.

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When you mentioned "reverse spiral" on the brake drum ,that indicated a felt washer type oil seal with an oil slinger which was a common way to keep oil from leaking.

The reverse spiral moves the little bit of oil that is leaking past the felt washer back into the transmission.

There should be an oil slinger which is a cupped washer that slings oil away from the seal.

This oil slinger design was used on later Studebaker engines for the front crankshaft seal also but only on very low pressure. It maybe that someone left the felt oilseal and oil slinger out.

The oil slinger maybe on the sucking side of the oil pump so that there should be very little pressure on that felt seal

There should be a threaded pressure port in which you can install a pressure gauge, so you can check the output pressure of the oil pump.

I am not an expert on this and maybe way off but it is worth checking on this.

Robert Kapteyn

Edited by rbk (see edit history)

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Richard, I too can see no mention of a felt washer in the standard 6 book I have, but it does mention one in the big 6 book, which is why I thought it may have one, however I am now sure it shouldn't.

Also Robert, there is not enough room for an oil slinger between the casing and the gear, however my latest idea is that there is too much end float in the gears and so oil is coming up between the gear and the casing. I took it all apart yesterday and then assembled the gears in the housings on the bench. The gasket paper measures .008" and measuring the gears, the housing etc, there is .024" end float. This seems to be a lot. I have spoken with a friend who says he can skim the castings down to give just a couple of thou clearance once a gasket is applied. I am guessing that with .024" oil can easily pass between the 2 and so is overpowering the reverse spiral. With just .002" the oil that can creep past will be greatly reduced and therefore the spiral will do its job.

The other thing I noticed is that the hole in the casting for the transmission flange to pass through has a clearance of .090" (or .045" each side) again this seems to be a lot. If no oil can get past the gears this shouldn't be a problem, however if oil is still a problem after the face has been machined, I will get a little bush made to reduce this hole.

Still persevering

Wayne

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An update.

Yesterday I received the parts back from the machine shop, they took approximately .010 off of the casing, thus reducing the end float by about half. Also they cleaned up the reverse spiral as it was teardrop shaped, and then they sleeved the end of the drive shaft coupling which sits in the reverse spiral, with just a few thou clearance.

I have now put these few parts back together and no oil leaks when I run the engine.

The beginning of next week I plan on connecting the brake rods etc back together and weather permitting take the car for a drive to see how good/bad the hydraulic assisted brakes are!!

will keep you informed.

Wayne

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If Wayne really wants to mess with us he should never post again. We would always wonder if the test drive ended really badly.

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I really can not figure out what you are referring to.

Wayne has never posted anything negative.

Living in England and persevering in rebuilding an old foreign car is a challenge.

Wayne you are welcome among us and keep posting

Robert Kapteyn

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