Need some help making the 64 more reliable for dad

[tjthorson]

Those of you that may have followed my threads in the past - I bought and gave my dad a 1964 Buick Riviera. He loves - it spends hours cleaning and waxing it - takes it to numerous car shows and cruise nights. This is a 64, no A/C, original dual quad Super Wildcat. Once its running, its been fine.

I just wish I could make the thing more reliable for him. It has a history of not starting - just sometimes. Not all the time - but I always cringe a bit until I hear it fire up. It can sit for weeks, go out to the garage, crank a bit and fire right up. other times, it will crank until it kills the battery (which doesn't seem to take long). Sometimes - the battery is dead, even after sitting for 6-8 hours at a car show. I am sure these are not all related.

I have chased down most of the "bad wiring". the previous owner had miles of lamp cord running to everything from neon lights, to underbody lighting, to... nowhere. Balls of wires, under the dash, in the console, etc. I have replaced all the radio and speaker wiring and soldered in new stuff.

I have replaced the voltage regulator suspecting maybe it was sticking and killing the battery at random - still died once this year. It was at a car show after sitting for the day. I wasn't there to troubleshoot.

I replaced the power window switches, since they were kinda sticky, and since the windows work with the key off, thought that might have been doing it.

I replaced the points/condenser with an electronic one, and a new coil.

I had to run a ground wire from the negative battery terminal to the fender. This helped immensely at first. Seemed to always start better then when I initially got the car.

Each winter I tackle a new part of the car - this winter I am dropping the fuel tank and replacing the rubber parts from the tank forward to the fuel pump (car has some splices in the hard lines too I have to fix) I am also replacing both battery cables. What the heck is that "relay" looking thing on the fender that the positive battery cable bolts too before going down to the starter???

Sorry for the ramble - just looking for some brainstorming on this....

[Jim Cannon]

What the heck is that "relay" looking thing on the fender that the positive battery cable bolts too before going down to the starter???

That is your horn relay.

The problem with starting some times and not starting other times is a combination of auto choke not set right, fuel draining out of the carb when it sits, and "operator error" in starting procedure (hot engine or cold engine).

Battery dieing quickly could be parasitic drain. Hook an ammeter up to the battery between a post and a cable and start pulling fuses until the current drops to zero. That's your circuit with a current "leak".

Adding a small electric fuel pump can help refill the carb after sitting.

[60FlatTop]

I just looked on Ebay, you can buy a Megger for under $200 these days. I saw some under $100. Get one, disconnect the battery and alternator and start chasing down each circuit. The Megger will put 500V through the wires but not enough amps to start a fire. If there is leakage you will find it that way. I've used them from everything from checking conductivity of operating room floors to windings on hermetic compressors. It should help you with that Riviera.

Bernie

[TexRiv_63]

Todd,

a few general suggestions:

- Make sure your battery is good, I recommend an Optima, and install a high-quality disconnect switch. Disconnect whenever the car sits, this will guard against drain plus is a safety feature if the wiring is sketchy.

- Check your charging system and be sure it is working properly when the car is running, a voltmeter check at the battery terminals should show 13.5 to 14.5 volts when running. If the car sits a lot use a Battery Tender to keep the charge up.

- Check all battery cables and relay-to-starter cable, if they are original replace them with good copper strand cable. make sure all connections are clean, tight, and metal-to-metal.

[Guest Pearville]

When I first got my 63, I had lots of starting problems and found that the ground side of the battery was connected to the radiator support. I moved it to the engine block and have much better results. Couldn't help but notice you moved yours to the fender. Try the engine and see if it helps.

Mike

[60FlatTop]

Mine has a happy spot right on the PS pump bracket:

Bernie

[Guest Pearville]

Mine has a happy spot right on the PS pump bracket:

Bernie

Pretty sure that's exactly where mine is too.

[Paul K.]

Also be sure your battery cables are the correct gauge.

[tjthorson]

Thanks. The negative cable is running to the back bolt of the power steering pump. The braided cable from the head bolt is going to the firewall. I started getting better starting (think the spark was weak during cranking), when I ran a new additional wire from the negative post to the fender on one of the regulator screws as well. The cables do look pretty old - so I will be replacing them too.

[60FlatTop]

When you ground to the engine you need to be sure the braided ground is clean and tight. The engine and transmission mount can insulate the current and it will find some other path, usually not as good.

As a safety measure always be sure the positive post is on the radiator side of the battery box. The hood can get real close to whichever post is outboard.

Bernie

[RivNut]

Mine has a happy spot right on the PS pump bracket:

Bernie

Factory correct placement of the negative cable.

The book calls for a type 27 battery, which is correct. Factory pictures of a type 27 battery installed show the positive post on the radiator side of the battery and the negative post on the fender side. While this is correct, it means that the two cables need to cross one another and the cables lie on top of the battery because the posts are toward the front of the car. Most guys that I know will buy the type 27, install it backwards and have the positive post next to the fender. Bad news.

You want to make sure that the positive post is next to the radiator.

This prevents the positive post from coming in contact with the inner panel of the hood. If the two touch, you'll have a major electrical problem. Take it from me first hand; I've "been there, done that." Luckily the short blew up an aftermarket amp meter and the short stopped there. Otherwise it would have gone through the entire wiring harness.

I now purchase type 27F batteries for my 1st gen cards. The 27 F puts the positive post at the back of the battery so the cables are not lying on top of it. You put the positive post next to the radiator but you still have to cross the cables, but if you run them correctly, they're no where near each other. It looks neater and gets the battery posts away from the hood. Much safer.

Ed

Edited November 27, 2013 by RivNut (see edit history)

[tjthorson]

Factory correct placement of the negative cable.

The book calls for a type 27 battery, which is correct. Factory pictures of a type 27 battery installed show the positive post on the radiator side of the battery and the negative post on the fender side. While this is correct, it means that the two cables need to cross one another and the cables lie on top of the battery because the posts are toward the front of the car. Most guys that I know will buy the type 27, install it backwards and have the positive post next to the fender. Bad news.

You want to make sure that the positive post is next to the radiator.

This prevents the positive post from coming in contact with the inner panel of the hood. If the two touch, you'll have a major electrical problem. Take it from me first hand; I've "been there, done that." Luckily the short blew up an aftermarket amp meter and the short stopped there. Otherwise it would have gone through the entire wiring harness.

I now purchase type 27F batteries for my 1st gen cards. The 27 F puts the positive post at the back of the battery so the cables are not lying on top of it. You put the positive post next to the radiator but you still have to cross the cables, but if you run them correctly, they're no where near each other. It looks neater and gets the battery posts away from the hood. Much safer.

Ed

Hmm. I know for a fact the positive is next to the fender. But, I don't see how it could come in contact with the hood - I must have not as tall of a battery. Its all bundled up for winter, next time Im in the garage, Ill see what the type of battery is in there.

[RivNut]

All it takes is a good pot hole to make that battery come in contact. I'm just trying to 1) Give some safety help, and 2) let you know what is correct as far as how it came from the factory. Your car, your choice.

Ed

[Jim Cannon]

Hmm. I know for a fact the positive is next to the fender. But, I don't see how it could come in contact with the hood - I must have not as tall of a battery. Its all bundled up for winter, next time Im in the garage, Ill see what the type of battery is in there.

You are not alone. 75% of the first gen Rivs I see running around have the positive post on the fender side. I have seen several short out on the underside of the hood.

[tjthorson]

You are not alone. 75% of the first gen Rivs I see running around have the positive post on the fender side. I have seen several short out on the underside of the hood.

Yeah - that certainly has me worried. The battery is unhooked for the winter - but next time Im in the garage Im going to take a look, and some measurements and see how far away it is. I did install the factory hold down, so its not moving, but for sure I want plenty of clearance - otherwise, when I measure up and replace the battery cables over winter, Ill flip it around.

So - each winter is a "new" project. This winter is the fuel system, and battery cables. I am going to drop the tank and replace/repair the fuel line, sender, etc to the front of the car. I can see some spliced in rubber hose here and there - and the rubber hose coming off the top of the tank has some yellow staining and is rock hard, so I suspect that has been leaking. Anything else in there I should change while Im at it?

I also need someone in the Chicagoland area that can properly check/setup this dual-quad setup. Last time I did any real carb work I was a teenager playing with a vacuum secondary holley on my 72 Buick. I can see when its hot that the rear carb seems to occasionally drip from somewhere on the passenger side (o ring behind the choke?)

I had bought rebuild kits several years ago - pulled them apart and replaced the accelerator pumps and gaskets and checked the floats - but that was about it.... It wasn't a "real" rebuild.... If I can find someone that really knows these setups, I would gladly pay to have it done right.

[RivNut]

I can see when its hot that the rear carb seems to occasionally drip from somewhere on the passenger side (o ring behind the choke?)

Replace all of your rubber fuel lines with fuel injection lines, they'll handle the ethanol in the gas better.

The one thing that made me replace the existing Rochester 4GC with an appropriate Carter AFB was the fact that there are no gaskets below the gas level at top of the carb. A leak at the choke level would indicate something other than a leaking gasket.

[Lapham3]

I tend to change fuel hoses occasionally and have been ok with the ethanol-FWIW, the fuel injection hoses I've tried have little to no 'give' and have been hard to get on

[60FlatTop]

I usually give a little spritz of silicone spray into the end of hoses before I slip them on.

If you are going to make new fuel lines use the first step of double flaring to make the ball shaped end. This will allow use of the factory style Corbin clamps, keep the hose from slipping off, and eliminate a sharp edge that could cut the hose from the inside.

Bernie

[tjthorson]

Replace all of your rubber fuel lines with fuel injection lines, they'll handle the ethanol in the gas better.

The one thing that made me replace the existing Rochester 4GC with an appropriate Carter AFB was the fact that there are no gaskets below the gas level at top of the carb. A leak at the choke level would indicate something other than a leaking gasket.

I guess I wasn't clear - not up near the choke plate - it looks like its coming from behind the choke assy on the side? I did put an electric choke kit on it (which has been working fine BTW, I know some people have problems with them), and I did put that o-ring behind it.... Might just be a float level set too high or something I suppose.... I just know if you stomp on it, it really bogs.... its idling ok, and I set the mixture screws with a vacuum gauge, but I am not even close to an expert on old school carbs, let alone two of them. Thanks for the help all...

[RivNut]

Mixture screws only control the flow of gas at idle when the throttle valves are closed. As soon as you open a throttle valve, the idle circuit is dormant. Float level makes sense. Don't trust the guide you get with the carb kit. Look in your shop manual for the proper float setting. I associate a bog on acceleration with a worn accelerator pump.

[1965rivgs]

Todd,

I am a tech and very familiar with your car including the dual quad system. If you are looking for someone to work on your car feel free to give me a call. My contact info is in the Riview or send a PM. I am located 30 miles west of Chicago,

Tom Mooney