Very Nice '63 For Sale

[Guest dwhiteside64]

Hi everyone,

While scanning Ebay I cam across this beauty:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Riviera-2-DOOR-COUPE-1963-buick-riviera-better-than-the-1964-1965-1966-or-1967-riviera-/231081777814?forcerrptr=true&hash=item35cd8c1a96&item=231081777814&pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_443wt_1141

I was wondering that, considering the condition, is the asking price on par for a first gen Riv in this condition? Also, what do our 'experts' here think of it?

[RivNut]

Nice looking restoration, but I didn't see anything that said what the actual miles are. Most nailhead guys say a nailhead is only good for 90K - 100 K before a rebuild is necessary. I also noticed that the console was redone in wood grain rather than the black vinyl. Detailing an engine compartment does not make it run well. Too bad that the pictures are so small.

I also had to chuckle at the seller's comments about the Riviera being the Car of the Year. I have that Motor Trend and believe it or not, Rambler was named the car of the year in '63. The rest of the text is a plagiarism of some kind (at least in my opinion.)

[63 Rivi]

Nice looking car. I believe the price is a little high though. Can't say I know of a beautiful 1st Gen selling over 25k unless it is a completely restored 65 GS. Miles are listed at 99k which is obviously very low.

I am not sure where you heard a nailhead is only good for 90-100k before a rebuild? Most of the people I know that are familiar with these engines say they are good for 200k without issues. Mine has 90k and shows no signs of oil consumption, loss of compression, loss of power, etc.

[RivNut]

I'll have to find the his name in an old Riview, but the info came from a guy was a real 1st generation Riviera guru. He had particular things that needed attention starting around 90K +. I want to say his name was Leonard Scott, that rings a bell to me, but I can't say for sure. The oil and metallurgy of the era was not what it is today. I'll start looking and see what I can find.

I know that my '63 had a valve job at 95K and at about 105K it started losing compression and I was adding oil regularly between changes.

Let's have others chime in as to how many miles they have on their '63 - '66 engines. Just nailheads, no 430/455 or later 403's or 307's

Ed

Edited October 30, 2013 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Guest Dialtone]

That Seller has been trying to sell that 63 Riv for almost 2 months at least. I am guessing it's the price is why it isn't selling. It's been listed on craigslist for awhile.

[JZRIV]

For $32k I'd expect a much more detailed description.......and a correctly restored air cleaner! Speedo says 99k. These cars just don't or at least haven't brought that kind of jingle. The seller is just hoping to find the needle-in-the-haystack buyer at that price and theres nothing wrong with that. A couple years ago there was an unrestored 63 original with something like 40k mi always garage kept. I looked at it and it ended up on ebay. That seller must have checked the same price book as this one because they were asking $32k as well. I thought they'd get maybe $10-12k but the highest offer they got was $8k and it never sold. They are convinced its worth way more even though the market has not supported that.

No question this ebay car is a very nice example anyone would be proud to own. If the engine had a professional rebuild and the tranny professionally gone through then its worth around half the asking price. This is just my personal opinion and I'm no expert on 1st gen cars but do check ebays completed listings for Rivs.

[Guest Pearville]

Nice car for sale in Austin Tx, $25,000.00 says professional restoration. I think $32, would have to be almost perfect. Only two pics, NOT MY CAR.

http://collegestation.craigslist.org/cto/4084090035.html

[RivNut]

Ya' gotta' read what it says, not what you want it to say. It's not a "professional restoration." The ad says "custom professionally built." It could be a custom paint job over all sorts of bondo and who knows what other short cuts that may have been taken to make it "look good." No detailed pictures of the interior, undercarriage (what did they hack to make the hydraulics fit?), or engine. Is the 2x4 intake a factory, if so is it a KX block? If it's one of the old Edlebrock 2x4 manifolds, they flow less cfm's than a stock single four barrel intake. How many more $$$ to get it back to stock where it would have a much larger appeal?

My $.02

Ed

[Guest Dialtone]

I've have seen more pictures of that 64 in TX. The car was on Ebay and it didn't meet the reserve that was set. There's more detail in the paint job than what the two pictures can show on that craigslist. The interior on it was clean and looked all stock factory interior. I remember seeing pictures of the motor but I don't remember want I saw in those pictures.

[Guest Pearville]

Ya' gotta' read what it says, not what you want it to say. It's not a "professional restoration." The ad says "custom professionally built." It could be a custom paint job over all sorts of bondo and who knows what other short cuts that may have been taken to make it "look good." No detailed pictures of the interior, undercarriage (what did they hack to make the hydraulics fit?), or engine. Is the 2x4 intake a factory, if so is it a KX block? If it's one of the old Edlebrock 2x4 manifolds, they flow less cfm's than a stock single four barrel intake. How many more $$$ to get it back to stock where it would have a much larger appeal?

My $.02

Ed

Point taken Ed, There is also a nice looking Riv in Sherman Tx, that has recently lowered the price from $20k to $17,9. Seems to be a rather low option car. Right now there are about 4 or 5 first gens for sale in Tx from a low of $5k to $25k. Prices are all over the place as are car conditions. Buyer beware is very much in play. Mike

[Guest Rob J]

"Fully Restored" is a loosely used term. Remember, everyone has their own reality. In lots of people's reality, "Restored" means a coat of so so paint, on a so so prepped body, some minor spit shine polishing, and a tune up. In my reality, "Fully Restored" means every single nut and bolt is removed and fully restored to as new or better condition. Every single mechanical and cosmetic component is brought back to factory new specs or better. Bottom line is, the car will need to look and drive like it just rolled off of the assembly line to be labeled "Fully Restored" in my reality.

I'm in the Home Theater, Custom AV, Automation business, and Home Theater is also a loosely used term. In most peoples reality a "Home Theater" to them is a POS $169.95 Home Theater in a box from Walmart or Best Buy. In my reality, a real Home Theater is a dedicated, purpose built media room with a high quality front projection system, full acoustics, and coupled with a high quality Audio and control system. Those will run you at least 70-80k and much higher. That's what I label a "Home Theater"

Everything in life is relative, and most people live in glass houses. I tend to be a realist, and don't use terms loosely or inaccurately. Others mileage may vary.

[Bleach]

There's a scene and quote from the movie "Used Cars" that comes to mind about this hustler and the outrageous price being asked.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: This thing has been for sale for a very long time. A clean old Plain Jane 63 Riv probably worth about 10-12K if that. What do you expect? An obscene price combined with the fact that the color is blah, the interior is clean sure, but blah too...especially with the upholstery shop fabric inserts......making it unappealing for a guy/gal that wants some sex appeal. Even though it's clean, a custom, power windows and a/c it really isn't that impressive. I think this might have passed through the hands of Wayne Carini at one time. Mitch

[Guest andres15]

Nice Car and US $ 32,000.00 only i think this best price of this car

[63 Rivi]

I'll have to find the his name in an old Riview, but the info came from a guy was a real 1st generation Riviera guru. He had particular things that needed attention starting around 90K +. I want to say his name was Leonard Scott, that rings a bell to me, but I can't say for sure. The oil and metallurgy of the era was not what it is today. I'll start looking and see what I can find.

I know that my '63 had a valve job at 95K and at about 105K it started losing compression and I was adding oil regularly between changes.

Ed

Leonard was a great guy and very helpful. I never had a discussion with him about Nailheads. I did have a discussion with Denny Manner about the engine since he first started with Buick back when they were using the Nailheads in their models. He spoke about the durability of them, when subject to extreme testing and they proved to be very strong. He never talked about them starting to fail around 100k, as a matter of fact, he spoke about how many were still going strong well past that.

As you asked, maybe others will chime in with their experiences with Nailhead longevity. I know it's kind of unrelated to the subject of this thread but it would be good to hear.

[DualQuadDave]

I think the first gen Riv's are currently way under-valued. Figure this, a resto on any car will run 25k, even if you got the car for free. Decent builder Riv's are drying up very fast compared to your typical Camaro/Mustang/Chevelle. A lot people say the prices are too high, but as supply dwindles, the prices are not exactly going to go down. My gut feeling says a lot of the pre-65 cars are going to go way up in price because their numbers are so low compared to muscle cars. The design was second to none and resto parts are thin unless you have a tri-5 Chevy.

[lrlforfun]

OK Dave: I wouldn't say they are under-valued, perhaps under appreciated or forgotten. There are several First-gen Rivs all over the place that are for sale and they are not too expensive. Even with what seems like cheep prices they lay on Craig's List and are re posted over and over on the Ebay....98% of the time because the price is too high. We must also define a "builder". First-gen Rivs are a very hard car to restore because they are now 50 years old and usually need soooooooo much. Many prospects looking for these cars are now really scrutinizing the details more than ever. The economy is shaky, people want to ride sooner than later and they don't want a bottomless pit when it comes to spending.

The Chevrolets dwarf Buicks in popularity. Bottom line though, supply and demand always wins. My theory is that when Third World countries gain more wealth and freedom they will be clamoring for a piece of Americana. That most definitely will increase the demand, the supply however is yet to be determined for when that happens. In the meantime Firs-Gen Rivs may not grow on trees like 2013 Chevrolet sedans but there are still plenty to go around. Mitch

[DualQuadDave]

Well, everybody has an opinion, but mine is based on what I see happening in the market currently. First gen Riv's are American Bentley's and I think they are starting to be really appreciated for the styling, now more than ever. I am watching a shift from the Chevy/Ford usual stuff to other makes and Buick/Caddy/Early European are at the forefront of it. I work on a lot of different projects for several private collectors down here in Florida, along with my own projects, and I am watching in slow motion this attitude change. I think it's a good thing for the hobby as it will save a lot of really cool cars from being discarded which was happening just because they are not the easy Camaro/Mustang stuff. You are totally correct with your overseas demand, though. I have shipped so many parts to Australia, Sweden, Japan, France, etc., I even have a hard time believing it. I even have some guy from Russia who calls me for Nailhead advice for a 65 Wildcat he is restoring for a customer. I think people are just getting tired of the usual stuff and really want something different. I have worked on so many Mustangs/Camaros/Chevelles, I have no interest in one anymore. 15 years ago, I could not get enough. Now, pretty much the majority of the stuff I want to work on is either totally new LS based pro-touring projects or totally antique/different/custom. The world's-a-changing!

[Guest Rob J]

I have to agree with Dave for the most part. I'm 44, and as much as I love the Camaro's, Mustangs, Vette's, (And have owned them) I wanted something different, cool, elegant, muscular, and unique. Over the last few years, I've become a major first gen fan. For me, my love mainly sits with the 65 model year, but I still dig all the first gen's.

So, yes, I'm a converted to Buick fan. Hell, I even own a 16k mile, mint condition 1987 Gran National as well.

After I get the Riv complete, I think my next addition to the collection will be something along the lines of an early 240z, or a pre 1989 Porsche 911. We'll see.

[petelempert]

IMHO Rivs are definitely on the way up. It's all about demographics: Aging Baby Boomers who might have started out collecting Camaros or Mustangs are seeking the larger, more comfortable classics. Those guys can afford to have a Riv "re-built" even if the numbers don't add up and they'll do it. That alone will drive values. Sixties Riv's epitomize the swanky Rat Pack vibe that is so big in pop culture today. Finally, you just don't see them much. I think within 5 years restored driver first gen Rivs will all be priced at $25K plus. PRL

[lrlforfun]

OK Pete: Several things here. I love your optimistic 5-year projection of a First-Gen Riv. I'm 62 and my history goes back to the 6th grade with these things (including the 60 Buick and the 63-67 Vette). At first they were the in car to have. My hometown of West Orange, NJ was very upscale in the 60's and had tons of them running around. As they got older they, like other older cars still in the daily service food chain got cheaper and quickly went the route of the others in that they were traded to people who could afford them. The majority dropped off the radar between 1970-1974. In the 70's these cars were basically forgotten but for a few hard heads like myself.

There were a few examples in the 60's of custom Rivieras like the Barris Villa Riviera, most being mild customs though with wheel, paint and some interior mods. I think the major customizers appreciated the style and basically hesitated from doing serious changes. Today, modifying the First Gen Riviera is on the top of the popularity list as demonstrated on the HAMB and many local car shows. I believe this is the bulk of the popularity. The purist crowd? I think it's taking second fiddle and I find that easy to determine. If you go to Buick only shows, internet forums you will see stock mostly First Gen Rivs but if you do a cross section and include other shows and forums that feature everything you can easily see that the modified crowd is way out there. I also think the Stock First-Gen people were always fans and not converts from other brands.

When a nice looking and running First-Gen Riv brings 25 grand I will by that time have at least one of my heaps hopefully that way. Mitch

Sure Chevs are popular but who knows if a red 69 Camaro gets passed by at the show in favor of something not nearly as popular? Also, how many people are opting to replace the Nailhead with a SBC, BBC or even a BBB? I think many.

[Guest Rob J]

Mitch, I'm sorry to say, but plenty of first gen Riv's have sold for well over 25k.

[Aaron65]

I've always loved first gens, and have looked at several of them for sale over the last 13 or 14 years. None of them were ever quite the right one, and I've noticed that they're now just out of the price range I'm comfortable with for old cars (initial investment). I don't mind putting money in cars over time, but that initial hit (especially when I have five old cars) is a bit of a deal breaker for me. I think I missed my chance, but I still watch the classifieds!

[petelempert]

I sort of forgot about this thread, but just today had a reminder that supports the theory on the increase in first gen Riv values. I just renewed my coverage with Hagerty Insurance for all my cars. They are a big proponent of "agreed to replacement value" coverage. Basically, the car is insured for a mutually agreed to value. It's an attractive concept because a lot of guys have way more in their car than they could sell it for. If it was stolen or totaled they'd be reimbursed appropriately. Similarly, it's the kind of coverage that prevents a totaled car like a Shelby Mustang from being valued as a 2-door Ford at claim time. Anyway, I told my agent what I had invested in my 63 Riv, thinking he'd accuse me of being upside down on the vehicle. I though he'd ask for a lengthly list of invoices for the work that's been done over the years. Instead, he told me "sixties Rivieras are on our watch list, lately they've been featured in Hemmings, Automobile Magazine's 50 most beautiful cars ever, and in national auctions bringing well into the 20's". Is he trying to drive up my annual payments? Maybe, but the difference between annually insuring a 63 Riv valued at $20K versus $30K is about $20 dollars. I think I'll invest the $20 in case a tree falls on it. PRL

[RivNut]

I told my agent what I had invested in my 63 Riv, thinking he'd accuse me of being upside down on the vehicle. I though he'd ask for a lengthly list of invoices for the work that's been done over the years. Instead, he told me "sixties Rivieras are on our watch list, lately they've been featured in Hemmings, Automobile Magazine's 50 most beautiful cars ever, and in national auctions bringing well into the 20's".

That's good information for a number of reasons. Thanks for sharing.

Ed

[Guest Rob J]

I definitely think they are on the way up, and nice clean cars will bring decent money. It makes me feel good about my current project. Not that I want to sell it, but it's nice to know that I won't be that upside down.

As with all classic cars, you'll still always have junk and rust bucket owners that think their crap is worth the same as a properly frame off restored car. Wishful thinking of their part.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rob J (see edit history)