Are Hot Rods/Street Rods taking over?

[michel88]

I went to a local car show today, and was not very interested in the cars there. The reason: About 90% of the cars were modified! It seems like the hot rods are taking over the hobby. Of course most of them had 350 crate motors and matching auto trans. It used to be at work most car guys had original cars. Now I am the only one that likes original, the rest are hot rodders. I feel like I am a minority because I like to experience the feel and sounds the cars had when I drove them back in the late 50's and 60's. The AACA should remain true to its mission, preserving ORIGINAL cars! Woody Michel

[1937hd45]

Woody, This is a big hobby, many people think the 50's&60's cars took it over years ago, but it is still going. To each their own.

[Mark Huston]

1937hd45, <BR>michel88's preceptions are right on, I quite attending car shows years ago for just the reasons michel88 mentioned. I would go to a multi-make show with my pre-war car and the judging classes had ALL pre-war cars lumped together, usually about a dozen cars. The rest of the over 100 cars would be mostly hotrods/modified. There is only one show that I still attend, that is the Galt Old Car Festival. It is for non-modified pre-war cars only. They have about 100 cars each year. That is the only show that I know of here in California where I can go and enjoy the cars without feeling out of place. That is the reason my brother and I started the Galt Old Car Festival 15 years ago (we have not been involved in the running or operation of the show for many years). Maybe michel88 needs to start a new car show in his area for non-modified cars only. If you can't find what you want, make it happen yourself. It worked for us.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

If you want to see a real tear jerker, surf over to the CCCA DF, "Buy-Sell" page. There is a guy who took a restored '36 Buick and turned it into a street rod. At least he has the decency to offer the original parts he has discarded to someone who might need them, but hearing about it ruined my evening.<P>I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into street rods, but I can't understand someone taking a perfectly good restored car and doing that to it.

[Mark Huston]

The '36 Buick disproves the claim that only cars beyond restoration get modified. I never belived that claim anyway. Sorry to hear a restored car is now gone forever.

[Guest]

I am also a boycotter of "old car shows." 95% of them are just home-made, overpowered desecrations of automobiles. In an age when fiberglass bodies are a dime a dozen, I can't understand the destruction of steel antique car bodies and the discarding of original parts. Although post-WWII cars were manufactured en masse for the most part, pre-WWII cars were not. Recently, I saw a "rodded" 1936 Terraplane coupe. That's a damn shame. What's next...a Deusenberg Model J monster truck? I attend Hershey...period.

[ex98thdrill]

As much as I like the old cars myself, most people have it in their mind that if they're going to spend the money for a car, they want something that is comfortable to drive. Without adding insult, most people don't want to drive anything without some power under the hood, power steering, power brakes, comfortable seats, air conditioning and a good stereo. As much as I love the iron my father and I have, the most comfortable driving thing that we have in the fleet, .....our towing rig. especially on the long hauls.

[Dave@Moon]

<B>DO NOT BOYCOTT LOCAL SHOWS!</B><P>The '36 Buick is hardly alone. I had a thread a few months back pointing out many examples of this kind of ruination of the icons of our hobby (including at least one fully restored Hudson). The response even here was tepid at best.<P>Think about it. If you had a perfectly good antique car of <I>any</I> kind, why would you go about gutting it and make it into something you probably already know will be a temporal item of limited interest beyond yourself. It's not like more traditional hot rod fodder isn't available. And why are people so eager to "express themselves" in this way?<P>And why will your kids be so well primed to do the same with <I>your</I> car someday?<P>There is a tremendous economic juggernaught out there that is driving the hot-rod craze of late. The after-market and big-three performance divisions have an enormous investment to protect, and they are merciless in the promotion of their products; five years ago virtually noone had ever heard of the SEMA show, which is now one of the largest trade shows in the U.S. Today it is regularly glorified on cable T.V. shows inbetween "How to" segments. <P>If you follow the properly targetted, well-researced marketting programs being aimed at you with needle precision by well-moneyed interests, it will always be "Morning in America" for you (until reality sets in). Just don't think twice about it.<P>How do you beat that? How do you make a hot rod wannabe think twice? <P>You park your restored car next to the hot rods. If you don't, you feed into the perception that there is no viable alternative. <P>In the long run, the car you save may <I>(very literally)</I> may be your own! <P><B>BE VISIBLE OR DIE!</B>

[The Old Guy]

Mark, have you stopped to consider that the reason the pre- war cars are lumped together is because there are so few that come? The classes are set up for so many cars per class, and if you bring more early cars ,they will make more classes for you. If you want the public tosee more early iron ,it must be shown.

[Guest c.johnson]

DaveMoon,<P>I agree completely. About 2 blocks from where I live, on the first Thursday of every month at the local "Burger joint", there is an "oldies night" gathering. Of course they are almost 100 percent modified. There is one guy that comes with his Model T. He is usually the center of attention, because most of the hot-rodders have never seen an unmodified, restored car. <BR>I can't wait to get my Oakland done to show them something new - and show support to the model T guy <P>cj

[Ed Miller]

In Florida I know of only one AACA Region that prohibits modified cars at its show. Fortunately it is my region, Naples-Marco Island. It gets cars you only see in magazines. Yes there are plenty of postwar vehicles. But you can expect to see Packard Twelves, Duesenbergs, Bugattis, Pierce Arrows, Model A and T Fords, etc. It's the best balanced and best quality show in the state. Gee, do you think it might have to do with not allowing modifieds???

[Guest]

Hot Rods/Street Rods/Customs have ALWAYS been more popular than antiques, so the question of whether they are "taking over" is moot -- they took over a LONG time ago. Hershey, the largest antique car show in the world barely pulls in 1,500 cars - and its the largest show of it's kind. The top hot rod shows consistently pull in 15,000! Do the math folks.<P>Are they taking good iron and converting it to a hot rod? Absolutely! It's a free country and they can do what they please with them. It's interesting to point out that I'll bet a vast majority of sales at Hershey are to hot rodders. Funny, considering it's a antique show.<P>Is it a shame that hot rodders are butchering good antique iron? In our perspective, as restoration fans... Absolutely!<P>Can we stop them? Probably not. All we can do is educate them on the fun of restoring a car to its original condition and that's its long-term value is higher when the restoration is complete. <P>Will we succeed in changing many of their minds? Doubt It. Should we try? Sure, can't hurt! <P>Just my opinion.<P>Peter

[Guest]

I may get a lot of flack over this..but i have a '37 Ford Club Coupe. I purchased it with a few "upgrades" as a modified flathead,it has the original aluminum denver heads,but it has two 2 barrel stromberg 97 carbs...and duals,etc...since the car isnt all original the way it sits...I plan on bulding a traditional resto-rod..keeping the flattie,etc..maybe putting a 9'' under it? not sure...I know these body styles(Clubs) are getting rare..thats why im not going to do any radical changes....I am not a purists..and this car wasnt built for the originality awards wither..it was purely built to drive...you can look at the car here: <P><A HREF="http://www.msnusers.com/streetrodsandcustoms/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=19" TARGET=_blank>Click Here</A><p>[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[Steve Moskowitz]

PeterG and Dave are on the mark. My love is restoration and preserveation but if everyone had the same tastes we'd all be showing Model A's or '57 Chevy's or something like that at a show. <P>There is no sense in denigrating most of the hot rods today because they are in many cases masterpieces of engineering and art work. These folks keep taking it to another level but most of all they drive them! There are the trailer queens but the vast number at the biggest and best shows are regularly driven and you have to take your hats off to them.<P>I think too many of us have been quilty of atending car shows for the trophies we end up giving away (by the way, donate your old trophies to special olympics...they love them) or throwing in a corner. If more of us went in the quest of allowing folks to learn and enjoy our cars it would be great.<P>I attended the Milwaukee Mile this year for the first time and experienced something I think unique in the hobby. I was somewhat surprised at the number of opportunities to get rides in many of these exquisite machines. They drew people in and I am sure have a lot of people thinking about trying to buy an ex-Indy car.<P>Sorry, for the rambling but I just do not think it healthy for our hobby to becomes "turtles".

[Dave@Moon]

Eddie,<P>If you're right about the show in FL attracting a wider range of quality antiques <I>because</I> modified cars are excluded, then I feel very sorry for the owners of those cars. To have such a myopic perspective on the hobby that you'd actually abandon participation to avoid contact with <I>the dark side,</I> that's just sad.<P>I have no love of hot rods. I've seen some amazing cars lost to hobby for the temporal pleasure of it's creator. I sometimes wonder where that 1931 (former) V16 Caddy I saw in 1984 with the sbc wound up. Or at least the aglomeration of pieces that was still left.<P>But they are <B>not</B> the enemy. Neglectful apathy and agoraphobia borne of provincialism is the enemy. Neglecting this "cancer" can only make it worse.<P>And I must therefore disagree with Peter. I believe that the "hot rod problem" is in fact getting worse. The hot rod culture of the past was always focused on modifying cars of little value as a way of infusing them with value. Occasionally you'd hear of a rare car hot rodded, but only after it was a hopeless basket case. Only a major, professional customizer would tackle a hot rod project using a new or concurrently valuable car.<P>Today the value of the car seems to be a seconday concern at best. Assuming it was reasonably well restored, that 1936 Buick was probably worth $15-50K before NYTower hot rodded it. What do you think the chances are that the modifications he/she did improved on those numbers?<P>And if restored '57 Chevy convertibles are really worth $50K why would anyone make a $18K hot rod out of one?<P>And why did my cousin sink over $30K into a brand new Honda Civic rice rocket? <P>Because they could. And partially because they were and are blissfully unaware of our alternative. <P>How unaware? Here's a clue--NYTower logged on to this forum to sell his leftover '36 Buick parts. This person, astute enough to successfully pull off this project, apparantly scanned down the list of forums, skipping both the AACA forum and the BCA forum, and posted his parts for sale on the <I><B>CCCA</B></I> forum! (How much do you want to bet this wasn't a CCCA approved 90-Series car?)<P>To guys like him, we don't exist. <P>And that's why Eddie's story about the FL chapter is so sad. <p>[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>Your statements about hot-rodders show me who truly has the provincial attitude to this very important issue. Your evaluation of the situation insults both antique and non-antique enthusiasts alike.<P>You conclude that antique car enthusiasts are narrow and self-centered (provincial) and that we?re apathetic AND have an abnormal fear of open or public places (agoraphobia: yes, I had to look it up). Don?t mask your feeling with big words? just call a spade a spade ? we are all stupid and we don?t care.<P>Then to characterize the hot-rod hobby as a Cancer. GEEZ ? GET A CLUE. Your MASSIVE GENERALIZATION that hot rodders ?are blissfully unaware of our alternative? is TOTALLY WRONG! On the contrary they are FULLY AWARE of it. They take advantage of our swap meets, read the antique classified sections of the paper to hunt for parts and their next project vehicle, and use our forum to sell parts that they no longer need. <P>I?m going to be totally blasphemous here: ? I love hot rods, I love customs, I love race cars, I love low riders, I love motorcycles, I love rice-rockets, I LOVE CARS! I just happen to love restored antiques more than all the others. That doesn?t make me better than those who like others, it just makes me different. <P>When is the last time you browsed a magazine stand? How many hotrod magazines do you find? How many antique/restoration magazines do you find? Does that not show you that our collective car hobby is extremely diverse and attends to dozen?s of tastes ? from cruising, to racing, to custom fabrication ? and yes, to original restorations. There is NOTHING wrong with this. As a matter of fact, I?m impressed by the diversity of car enthusiast! We should embrace this diversity! <P>We should reach out to other car enthusiasts to educate them on our unique preferences. We just might convert a few. What?s the worst case here? That another 32 Ford gets chopped up? Are their not worse things that could happen? GEEZ.<P>Your comments clearly tell me that the only way to be a GOOD car enthusiast is to think just like you. Grow up ? it?s this kind of attitude that will push people FROM our specific interests ? not ATTRACT them to us.<P><I>------Don't Believe the MASSIVE GENERALIZATIONS!</I><P>Peter<p>[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[1937hd45]

Well said Peter! If a car is "lost" to hot rodding it is because someone stepped up and paid for it. A rodded version of most cars, equal to AACA first standards will be worth more because you can use it. The restored version is now more rare since there is one less original. If less originals are around why aren't they bringing more money than the rodded version?

[Dave@Moon]

I stand corrected. Presumptive assumptions and defensive, extended inferences are the enemy. <P> <P>Wasn't <I>I</I> the one defending/promoting integration with the hot rod comunity an hour ago?<P> <P>Haven't I consistently done so for 2+ years, despite some notable losses of important cars to their ranks?<P> <P>Curious.

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>You can not simultaneously endorse parking our antique car next to a hotrod at a local car show, then expect us to influence the hotrod's owner away from the "dark side" by calling his hobby a cancer --OR-- feel like an apathetic fool if we don?t.<P>What?s wrong just proudly displaying our pride-and-joy for others to see -- and at the same time enjoying another?s car for what they are ? antique or not?<P>Peter<p>[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[Guest]

This thought has been wandering around in my head [no wisecracks} for a while now, so I will toss it into the arena.<P>I wonder how many people build modifieds for the pure pleasure of doing the work, with little concern for the value of the finished product. They just do it because they like the work, it fills their idle hours, it gets them out of the house and will at least be drivable at highway speeds.<P>Hot rods and modifides are of NO interest to me, but I can see some people doing them for no reason other than doing it. No profit motive involved and they often lose interest in the vehicle after the work is done.<P>I am guilty of having begun non automotive projects, which though enjoyable in the construction phase, become items of little interest upon completion.<P>Have any of you encountered semi completed modified vehicles sitting around in primer never to be finished by the person who started the work. I have. Why? It was not the finished product that drove them, it was the work, and maybe an unattainable dream..<P>These are the cases where a once restorable vehicle is often lost for good.<P>Just my opinion. Does anyone share it? ~ hvs

[Guest]

You're right on the mark HVS. I know of a number of hot-rod "projects" that never got beyond the collection of parts and some dreaming.<P>Restorers are no different really. I know of many restoration "projects" that never get beyond the dismantling stage.<P>It's not always the "end" that modivates people, sometimes it's the "means".<P>In either case your point is valid - a once restorable vehicle is often lost for good.<P>Peter<P>P.S. Oh my god - did i just agree with HVS? ( Nope, the sky isn't falling -- COOL! )<p>[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[Guest]

See Peter, my multi faceted rants allow you to agree with me one day and be pissed off at me the next. Keeps the DFers blood stirred on the forum, doesn't it. ~ hvs

[1937hd45]

Howard, You have discribed the story of my life. I don't know the total number of automotive projects (restorations & rods) I've started and never finished. Money is the main reason, elerctrical work is the second. I've never lost money on a project (my labor is free to me)and sold one project to get another. The 1928 433 Packard roadster was sold when I realized I wouldn't fit in with Packard people.This is what keeps the hobby going. For the record I've seen several cars ruined in restoration shops, so the rodders are not to blame for all the "lost" automobiles.

[Guest]

My stance on this subject awhile back is based on the fact that my hobby is not "cars" but antique automobile restoration. It's not about money, it's about the preservation of tangible automotive history. 99% of "rodded" cars are lost forever from a historical standpoint. If these customizing/alteration treatments were performed on historical buildings and landmarks, it would not be tolerated.

[R W Burgess]

OK Guys, I guess I'll come out of the closet. I'm a hotrodder/streetrodder first and AACA enthusiast secondly. I started with a semi-rodded '55 Chevy,have progressed to a '65 injected corvette, '35 rodded Ford, '56 Chevy Wagon (stock), and lastly a '32 ford highboy with historical value back to '63. I've kept all 4, have friends in both hobbies,as strange as that sounds, and enjoy everybody interested in cars. My point is, I'm on the fence and like it there. I can see and hear views from both sides and hope to help both hobbies perpetuate. Believe it or not, both the Rodding Industry and Antique Enthusiasts are after the same thing, "Keeping Their Hobby Alive". To do that, we have to make it interesting to young people. Young people today are used to the "have it now,flashy,noisy attitude". That's one reason rods are getting a lot of attention from the younger people. The fancy paint jobs; excessive, at times, chromeplating; and the racy exhaust sounds. Now where does that put the AACA? Doug Drake's on the right track, but he needs to let all the kids participate in both or all the programs of the day. Also you need to let the little guys take rides in these cars to pique their interest. I guess I've rambled enough, but the point is the AACA isn't alone in the quest for longevity and fighting among yourselves isn't accomplishing a whole lot. I have other points of interest, if anyone's interested. Wayne

[The Old Guy]

I started with a 31 Buick in 1948,and I still like Buicks.I loved cars!! I drag raced all over the state in the 50s and 60s and then my boys wanted to start using the race car. I switched to antique cars and the family enjoyed the hobby for many years. i have had some decent restored Buicks, won my share of awards ,and now am on the fence. I still love cars!!I still have a restored 40 and a low mileage 63 Buick ,but I drive me 37 street rod and my 57 Special on a 72 chassis daily. I also run my 72 GS at the drags and hassle the kids. I installed an overdrive trans in the GS and drove it to the BCA nationals and I enjoy every facet of the old car hobby. I personally think that many of the modified owners also have an originalcar and feel as I do.

[Guest c.johnson]

I don't know what there is to come "out of the clost" about. I met a promenent member of the local VMCCA (yes, they have more than one chapter in Utah!!, wish I could get ONE chapter of AACA going!!!) and they were almost embarassed to admit that they "DO HOTRODS" <P>While I admire the work, and wish I had some of the money that goes into them, I just don't get into them these days. Sure when I was in High School, I pulled the 302 out of my '68 Cougar, and dropped a 390 with glass packs. : Well.. because... I could, and I wanted to do it. I learned an appreciation for cars, and an understanding for engines that carries over today. I hope that experience doesn't black mark me for the rest of my life. <P>Anyway, "Hot-rods" are a part of our American culture, just as manufactured cars are also a part of our culture. We can either accept it, live with it, and learn from it, or spend our life hating it. <P>cj

[ply33]

Straighaway Eight said "If these customizing/alteration treatments were performed on historical buildings and landmarks, it would not be tolerated."<P>Maybe in your part of the country. Most of what I see in building preservation and "restoration" involves keeping part of the facade and gutting the building. An nationally televised view of this is aired every week on "This Old House". This seems to be analogous to the "resto-rod" approach to old cars.<P>I think the real problem I have with discussing cars with others is that most have never actually looked up the definition of "restoration". They talk of restoring the car by putting in a V8, disc brakes, etc. I don't have a real problem with them making modifications to their own car but I do have a problem with them believing that they are "restoring" the car.<P>By the way, not all 20 year car projects end up in the trash heap. I am at about year 24 on my half baked attempt at restoring my car. It is actually starting to look presentable inside as well as out...<p>[ 07-23-2002: Message edited by: ply33 ]

[Dave@Moon]

<I>Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary:</I><P>"<B>Cancer:</B> 3. something...malignant that spreads destructively (i.e. the cancer of hidden resentment)....<P>"<B>Malignant:</B> 2. tending to produce...deterioration (i.e. malingant malaria)..."<P>Any questions?<P>--------------------------------------<P>Also, I should like to point out that I was arguing against the stated opinion of at least 2 posters that it's best to avoid associating with hot rodders, presumably because they're somehow objectionable. I'm arguing that one does not have to embrace hot rods to share the hobby with them, and that it is in fact counter productive to dissassociate oneself with that part of the hobby. <P>-----------------------------------------<P>Finally, I think my wife's friend is fat. The fact that I think so doesn't mean that I'm going to shout it at her every time she drops by! However, I'm still entitled to the opinion.<P>I've parked my car (which, by the way, is not strictly stock) next to many cars that were in the process of being lost to the hot-rodding hobby. Some of them were beneath contempt for the lack of perspective they expressed on behalf of their creator. I managed to not get through the day enjoying the show for what it was every time. Never once did I expess my level of disgust with my neighbor. <P>I thought that part of the expressed scenario didn't need to be presented explicitly. I was wrong.<p>[ 07-23-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[R W Burgess]

Dave@moon! I get the feeling you're mad at someone or something and I can't figure out where all the hostility is coming from. We all know it's hard to change the future. Sometimes we just have try to see the other person's point of view from their side of the fence. Smile a little more. It'll all be better tomorrow! Wayne

[Guest]

Having owned several old Buicks a 1937 model 47, 1941 Buick Sports coupe and a 1949 Roadmaster sedanette. I was aware of their unmodified beauty and respected them for that. I also remember the limitations we endured going on trips over 100 miles in high 90 temps. <BR> I recently picked up a mild customized 1954 Buick Special Riviera. It has been cursed by the modern 350 and hydro.<BR>and sits on a '76 platform with disc brakes etc; all work done by the previous owner. What attracted me to the car was the way it was done.I also remember the problems that the early Buick V-8's had. I recently drove over 1000 miles in the car and did so without worry and in the knowledge I'd probably get there.<BR> I have mixed feelings about custom work. I grew up in the '50's when this was the norm. Many times kids experimented with metal work learning the limitations of bondo. When someone salvages a wreck and creates beauty in an artistic way, I appreciate that. To take a classic unmolested car and alter it I feel is wrong. It is similar to putting vinyl siding on a historic victorian home.

[Ed Miller]

Have you ever noticed it's the hot rodder who wants to be recognized by the clubs who cherish authenticity?

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>I've not questioned your right to have an opinion. You've got your opinion - I've got mine. <P>If our goal is to establish some kind of admiration for our restored antiques then we must first stop condemning others on how they choose to enjoy the car hobby. <P>Peter

[R W Burgess]

Eddie33. Which hot rodders were you speaking of that wanted the AACA's recognition?

[1937hd45]

Eddie33, Just because one likes hot rods doesn't mean there aren't a bunch of brass era or classics in the gagage as well. The race cars are a given.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

It's true, some hot rodders really do have a wide variety of interests, but I still have to resist when someone suggests making a street rod out of a perfectly good antique. The '36 Buick on the CCCA DF really gave me problems. I started to delete the post because it probably wasn't even a car that CCCA would reognize. Unfortunately, the deed had already been done and a perfectly good Buick is now a hot rod. The good news is someone saw the post and is getting the parts. I hope they put them to good use.<P>I own a '39 Rolls-Royce Wraith that is HPOF, but decent enough to get awards in CCCA's Touring Class. Like many of us, the only thing wrong with it is it's getting a little old. <P>I had a guy seriously offer me a VERY good price for the car. Unfortunately, he told me what he was going to do with it. To say it would be "highly modified" would be a gross understatement. I decided not to sell him the car. It only took a couple of seconds to make that decision. The next time it happens, it may not be so easy.<P>We can't stop people from doing what they will with any old car. If they own it, they have the right to do as they please, just as you have the same right to restore it to its original glory. On the other hand, we don't have to make it easy for them.<P><BR>Chuck

[Guest]

RW ~ I would say that the people who lobbied for the creation of class 37, Historic Hot Rods, were seeking AACA recognition for their vehicles.<P>If you believe otherwise, 'splain it to me.<P>hvs

[Guest]

Bob ~ Never said they were. Like you, I have seen many a true restoration project abandoned by both owners doing their own restoration and a few unscrupulous restoration shops.<P>In my own case I pulled the engine out of my '41 Cadillac to restore the firewall in 1979. Finally got the car back on the road in 1987. <P>There is enough blame to go around and cover the whole old car field. ~ hvs

[Guest]

I drag raced for 15 years and we often said that if all the cars that were started and never finished showed up at the races on any given Sunday,we wouldnt even be able to get in the gate.I would guess that the restoration hobby is the same.It doesnt take long for reality to set in and for whatever reason,be it time ,money or you under-estimated the size of the project that you lose interest.Some people can envision the finished project,some cannot.That is always what kept me going,i always knew how it was going to turn out.Everything from a 7 second altered with an injected big block Chevy to an AACA award winning 1937 Ford phaeton at Hershey last Oct.Stay focused you can finish it!Fast or slow,you gotta love em all

[1937hd45]

Something I always wanted to see was a monthly magazine that covered nothing but automotive projects that were at least 20-25 years in progress. They would never run out of feature stories. I found a 1930 Ford roadster back in 1962 never did anything to it, sold it and it sat in the new owners garage for 25 years. I bought it back a few months ago. Will I finish it? Who knows, having it is what counts.