I'm still having a neutral in 3rd/4th gear..

[Guest spongebob]

the factory service manual is driving me crazy, I've searched till I'm blue in the face

for someone thats had the same problem...nothing

again theres no 3rd or 4th gear, only neutral. tv is Ok.

[Ronnie]

The service manual covers the things you should check in the transmission diagnostics charts. The problem is none of them can easily be done. At the very minimum the side cover has to come off and that isn't an easy job to accomplish in itself. Best to leave this problem to the pros in my opinion.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Guest JG8424]

the factory service manual is driving me crazy, I've searched till I'm blue in the face

for someone thats had the same problem...nothing

again theres no 3rd or 4th gear, only neutral. tv is Ok.

What kind of vehicle are we discussing?

JG

[Guest Corvanti]

What kind of vehicle are we discussing?JG

http://forums.aaca.org/f116/tranny-goes-into-neutral-2nd-346439.html

Spongebob - agree with Ronnie - take it to a well known area "trans-pro" for a look-see. after the estimate, if the cost to repair is more than what you want to put in the gal, then alternative actions should be considered...

[Guest spongebob]

well it'll take 1/2 a day to get to a transmission guy at 30 mph..and if it needs a tranny, i may junk the car..

[Ronnie]

Renting a tow dolly and hooking it behind that Duramax one option. I don't think you are going to find a simple fix for your problem. I wish I had better news.

[Guest spongebob]

the only transmission shop where i live, the guy works outside..yuck...ill talk to him 1st...

the tow bar thing is a good idea, thanks..

[NCReatta]

With towing a Reatta, even just to the transmission shop, I'd suggest to get a full car trailer, not a tow dolly. A tow dolly will allow the car to flex too much. I've seen too many good Reatta windshields ruined by tow dollies.

[padgett]

How does a tow dolly allow the car to flex ? Mine has no suspension but does steer. With tire straps Reatta suspension should act normally

[Ronnie]

The photo below shows an example of how Reatta windshields get ruined by tow dollies. Notice the crack running across the windshield in the photo? I found the photo on the Internet. For some reason the station wagon looks familiar to me.

(Click to enlarge)

[NCReatta]

The photo below shows an example of how Reatta windshields get ruined by tow dollies. Notice the crack running across the windshield in the photo? I found the photo on the Internet. For some reason the station wagon looks familiar to me.

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=183822"/>

(Click to enlarge)

Yup, that's one of the ones that had an unfortunate run in with a pot hole. I've since replaced the windshield with another used one.

And that crack you see is on the car I was driving, not the other one.

Padgett, I'm honestly not sure how it works, but I've had the problem multiple times where either the crack spread or it starred a crack, my dolly is about as heavy duty as you can get, and it still has issues sometimes.

Edited March 20, 2013 by NCReatta (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Yup, that's one of the ones that had an unfortunate run in with a pot hole. I've since replaced the windshield with another used one.

And that crack you see is on the car I was driving, not the other one.

Padgett, I'm honestly not sure how it works, but I've had the problem multiple times where either the crack spread or it starred a crack, my dolly is about as heavy duty as you can get, and it still has issues sometimes.

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought a rock had slung off your tow dolly and busted the windshield. That's the only way I could imagine that a tow dolly would ruin a windshield.

[padgett]

Does your dolly steer ? What I cannot see is how you have attached the Reatta to the dolly. If tying the frame member down so the Reatta suspension is compressed, I can see twisting and shock since dollys have no springs. I use over-the-tire straps with a forward safety strap so the suspension is free to move & there should be no twisting.

[DAVES89]

When I bought my Black from the P.O. I picked it up at Jim Finn's house. Towed it all the way back with a tow dolly [u Haul] with the straps as Padgett describes. While the windshield had repaired stone chips, no cracks started. I did have the windshield replaced when it got hit by an ice ball off a semi...

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

well it'll take 1/2 a day to get to a transmission guy at 30 mph..and if it needs a tranny, i may junk the car..

That would be a waist of a perfectly good Reatta.

Even the thought should be punishable by a good keg stand.

Look on craigslist find a backyard mechanic and get a used tranny from a pull it yard or full out wrecking yard. It is not that bad of a job and all the tools and tranny can be had for under a grand. You cold even talk to your local high school auto shop and they would probably do it for free minus the cost of the tranny. If not one of the students could do it on the weekend and would only cost a hundred or so.

Point being people are too willing to give up on their cars for little to no real reason. I guess that is to be expected from a society that barely can change a tire. Hell if I was closer I would volunteer my 13 year old daughter. She would love the chance. She will get it when I get back and start my swap.

Edited March 21, 2013 by D-a-n-i-e-l
damn auto correct (see edit history)

[handmedownreatta]

from reading this i doubt the transmission needs rebuilt.as someone said it sounds like a valvebody or a governer problem.i doubt it would cost over two hundred to fix.i had this problem on a 1984 camaro[i know it has a different trans]and the problem was that the plastic gear driving the governer stripped.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Good point. I had a bad speed sensor that caused something simular I do not recall the exact symptoms. If you do a search u can probably find it. I will look in the morning too.

[Guest spongebob]

heres the deal, i don't want to put a $2000 tranny in a car thats worth 4000 on a good day..

i like my reatta to pieces i just rebuilt the front end had it all aligned, have brand new tires on it,

ill be talking to the tranny guy as soon as i can..i can't believe I'm the first to report this problem...

thanks guys..

[padgett]

Not a problem just the 440T4/4T60 was under continuous improvement and got better very year. Just looked through the '90 TSBs and while there are several "no drive" or "slips" there is nothing about "no 3rd/4th". A close review of the tranny section in the FSM might show which circuits could affect it. I suspect a clog somewhere. Did this happen suddenly ?

BTW be very glad for the "free for download" FSM. I just ordered a FSM on DVD (only way) for my new tow car. $164.90. Figure a dollar for the DVD and $3 shipping ($20.62 S&H) plus a lot of profit. Am just glad they finally released one.

Edited March 22, 2013 by padgett (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

To all, for what it's worth.

Found this in a newsletter. Thought you might be interested.

John F.

These are transmission parts?

Recent experience with the transmission in my son’s 1990 Lincoln shifting erratically due to a missing throttle valve bushing located under the air intake made me curious about other parts not obviously associated with the transmission that significantly impact transmission performance. With the help of the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association, I compiled the list below. Being aware of these parts’ roles will help prevent, diagnose, and repair problems before they cause transmission damage, leave a driver stranded, or make for a slow ride home after the car’s computer activates limp-in mode. Following the part name in parenthesis is the RockAuto catalog section where you can see and learn more about this part for particular vehicles.

Control Modules (Electrical): Engine (ECM) / Powertrain (PCM), Body (BCM), Automatic Transmission (TCM), and/or other control modules (some new vehicles have more than ten) use input from sensors such as those below to control shift timing and shift feel. When the responsible control module stops working, the transmission may stop shifting, shift harsh or soft, or catastrophically fail.

Mass Airflow Sensor (Emission), Throttle Position Sensor (Fuel/Air), and Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (Fuel/Air): The Mass Airflow Sensor (MAS) measures the mass flow-rate of air entering the engine. The Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) measures the position of the throttle (gas pedal). The Manifold Pressure Sensor (MAP) measures pressure in the intake manifold. Data from all three sensors can be used to determine engine load. A failed MAS, TPS or MAP can cause late-harsh shifts, early-soft shifts, or the transmission may stop shifting completely.

Air Temperature Sensor (Emission): The temperature of the air entering the engine intake is used to adjust the fuel/air mixture and transmission fluid pressure. A failed intake Air Temperature Sensor may cause the transmission to shift harder than normal.

Air Conditioner Relay (Electrical-Switch & Relay): The Air Conditioner Relay/Sensor indicates when the AC is on or off. This is used to adjust engine speed (RPM). A failed AC Relay may cause engine lugging or other driveability problems that may seem transmission related.

Temperature Sender / Sensor (Cooling System and Transmission-Automatic): The Coolant Temperature Sensor and/or Transmission Oil Temperature Sensor prevents the converter clutch from putting the transmission into overdrive when the engine and transmission are too cold. On some cars, other gears may also be inhibited. These sensors are likely to become even more important as more gears are added to new cars with higher fuel economy requirements. Without correct temperature data there may be late shifts, starting off in the wrong gear, and/or no overdrive gear.

Turbine Speed Sensor (Electrical): This Speed Sensor mounted on the transmission measures input shaft speed and its data indicates if the transmission is slipping. Shift timing and shift feel problems typically occur if the Turbine Shaft Speed Sensor fails.

Vehicle Speed Sensor or Differential Speed Sensor (Electrical): The speed sensor mounted on the transmission or differential measures vehicle speed. Without input from this sensor, the transmission may stop shifting or shift late and harsh. The converter clutch may be inhibited and the transmission will not go into overdrive.

Transmission Range Sensor / Neutral Safety Switch (Electrical-Switch & Relay): This sensor indicates the position of the gear shifter. It determines which gears are enabled or disabled. When this sensor fails, the transmission may start out in the wrong gear, fail to up shift, or seem to fall out of gear.

Overdrive Button (Transmission-Automatic): This dash, console, or shifter-mounted switch on some vehicles lets the driver disable overdrive. If the switch fails then the transmission will not go into overdrive or the driver will be unable to disable overdrive.

Brake Light Switch (Electrical Switch & Relay): The Brake Light Switch may also generate brake pedal position signals that are used to release the converter clutch when the vehicle is braking. When the Brake Switch fails, the converter clutch may not activate or deactivate properly. The vehicle may shudder while coming to a stop because the transmission is still in a too high of a gear.

Tom Taylor,

Edited March 22, 2013 by Machiner 55
Changed "Bob" to "To all, for what it's worth." (see edit history)

[2seater]

I will apologize in advance for butting in. I'm not Bob and it looks like you went to a lot of work investigating, but almost all of the issues mentioned above apply only to an electrinically controlled transaxle. There is no electrical input to the trans. except for the TCC. The shifting is almost exclusively controlled by internal mechanical settings, line pressure and the two cable inputs from the shifter and throttle cable. A plugged passage, stuck servo or something similar would seem the most likely.

[Ronnie]

This post will make a total of 22 to posts that have been made about this shifting problem. In my opinion post one and two summed up the problem and the solution. The service manual clearly lays out what needs to be done. What is needed is some hands on troubleshooting by someone who understands these hydraulically controlled transmissions. This transmission not shifting from 2nd to 3rd is definitely not an electrical problem that can be solved externally.

[Machiner 55]

2seater,

...but almost all of the issues mentioned above apply only to an electrinically controlled transaxle.

Good point. Didn't really give it much thought before posting. I just received the newsletter and wanted to post the information to the Gen. Pop. and placed it Bob's Tx problem thread to get it out there. After reviewing I agree that it might get someone going down the wrong road spending time and money chasing a problem that doesn't exist.

Good catch.

John F.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

OK the VSS kept it from shifting out of 1st and I had no speedometer.

Back to the specifics of your issue.

When you get in to second and are driving does it shift and then nuetral, or can you feel anything trying to make the car go. Also were there any other symptoms prior. harder shifts softer shifts. did it happen slowly or did it just give up all at once?

[2seater]

Daniel, is the VSS tied into the trans. governor system? If that fails, I could see a shifting problem. If not, I am baffled how that could affect the trans., but I have learned that everything doesn't follow what seems obvious.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

I am not sure of its full function in the system but I had some how messed up the drive gear, when doing my first SC swap and it left the car not moving out of firs and with no speedo. I gues it could have been 1st and second. It would not be a hard check to sse if the gear is broken loose or chewed up.

[padgett]

OK, in the 90 FSM (downloadable) on pages 4T60-11 & 12 in section 7 there is a long section on possible causes of "No 2-3 shift (1st and 2nd speeds only)". Most involve internal issues and will require at least partial disassembly to resolve. That should have been the first place to look.

As to the VSS there is mention of an "internal transaxle speed sensor". For a professional, the paper FSM has the flow diagrams in color but since was used in literally millions of GM cars from 1984 to 1992, any transmission mechanic should have one.

Now whether it is best to repair yours or have someone replace with a good used trans is up to you and how many miles are on the car. Over 120,000 I'd probably replace.

PS pulling the engine/trans is not that difficult but best with more than one person (three best to remove the hood). Then you can carry to a good mechanic.

[Ronnie]

The "internal transaxle speed sensor" almost has to be the governor. Doing a google search of "internal transaxle speed sensor" doesn't find any information on it of value.

I've been sitting here for a while now looking at the FSM for an electrical connection between the VSS, (which sends it's output signal directly to the ECM), and the transmission. I've looked at each ECM input and output and I can't find one any mention of the transmission other than the TCC.

The ECM sends a pulsed signal to the BCM so there could be a connection to the transmission there somehow. I've not gotten that far with my search.

I don't doubt what Daniel is saying is true. So far I just can't find a reason for it.

[padgett]

The transmission is hydromechanical. The only thing operated by electricity is the TCC solenoid, every thing else is just sensor outputs. I agree the internal speed sensor is probably part of the governor.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

The "internal transaxle speed sensor" almost has to be the governor. Doing a google search of "internal transaxle speed sensor" doesn't find any information on it of value.

I've been sitting here for a while now looking at the FSM for an electrical connection between the VSS, (which sends it's output signal directly to the ECM), and the transmission. I've looked at each ECM input and output and I can't find one any mention of the transmission other than the TCC.

The ECM sends a pulsed signal to the BCM so there could be a connection to the transmission there somehow. I've not gotten that far with my search.

I don't doubt what Daniel is saying is true. So far I just can't find a reason for it.

If you do a serch with my user name and speed sensor you will firn the two posts from 07. What I stated is true, so please do not question it, or if you want to take the thirty minutes and pull yours to verify, but please do not state that I am throwing false information as I seem to be the only one here that ever had either issue. As you can see in the posts when I was asking for help.

[Ronnie]

Daniel you took my last post wrong. I wasn't searching to prove you wrong. I was searching so I could understand how it could happen. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intentions.

I did a search for your post as you suggested. Below is a link to it. It appears in your last post you qustioned how it could happen yourself. Here is the last thing you had to say about it.

The tranny is hydro-matic, not "E" electronic. Got me on why the vss would keep it from shifting but that is the only thing I changed and the the gear on it was was tore up.

http://forums.aaca.org/f116/tranny-will-not-shift-out-1st-227205.html Edited March 22, 2013 by Ronnie
additional info added (see edit history)

[2seater]

I agree with Daniel. If there is some connection to the governor function, it would be a good idea to check, even though it doesn't seem there was any mention of speedo malfunction. I have never had one apart, and my car is still out for storage, but if I remember right, it is accesible on the upper passengers side of the trans?

[padgett]

I *suspect* that it is like a SBC - if the distributer gear fails, you lose oil pressure. Maybe the other end of the VSS is driving the "internal speed sensor. Would make both answers true.

[Ronnie]

Thanks Daniel for pointing me to your post in 2007. It prompted me to do more searching to try to discover how the speed sensor could effect the transmission not shifting. I'm sorry for disregarding you telling me not to question anything Daniel. It is my nature to question. I don't mean to be disrespectful.

After doing more research, what Daniel said makes perfect sense. It turns out that the shifting problem Daniel had was probably not an electrical problem with the sensor itself but likely to be the gear and shaft that drives it.

As you can see in the photo below the speed sensor and the governor are on the same shaft and both are driven with the same gear. If the shaft tops turning the speed sensor stops working as well as the governor thus preventing the transmission from shifting. Mystery solved. Thanks Daniel for helping me understand why the VSS and speedometer not working could cause the hydraulically controlled transmission not to shift out of first gear.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[padgett]

But if the drive breaks, the speedo won't work ?

[Ronnie]

But if the drive breaks, the speedo won't work ?

If the shaft doesn't turn the VSS, (which I think is just an encoder), there would be no pulse count sent to the ECM (for TCC control). The ECM in turn sends a slightly modified pulse count signal to the BCM. which tells the IPC the MPH that should be displayed. That's what I see when I look at the FSM. Kevin might offer more insight on how it all actually works.

I've not had a VSS apart, and it's not covered that I saw in the FSM, but I think #74 in the photo serves the same purpose as a ABS reluctor ring does to generate the pulse.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Guest spongebob]

i talked to the tranny guy today, and he said he thinks its the bands/clutches on the 3rd gear that are the problem, i will get the car to him when i can.

my car shifts from 2nd to what is a neutral..

[2seater]

That's what is a bit puzzling about this possibility: if the first part in line breaks, the second part should fail as well? I would think it should not shift at all? It seems the governor mechanism is relatively simple, flyweights operating a valve to change line pressure to the shift valve. If a spring breaks in the governor, the weights would move more quickly and should trigger a shift early, not late?

Oops, I see Spongebob posted while I was slowly typing. I hope the problem can be solved in a reasonable manner. Good luck.

Edited March 23, 2013 by 2seater (see edit history)