wex65 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I have a dilemma and wanted to see if I could get some people to chime in to help me make a decision.I have two 55's, a VERY clean Special and a VERY dodgy Roadmaster. I have been taking parts from Roadmaster, swapping good for bad etc, and am close to selling it nowThe Special really is a nice car with two exceptions, an interior that needs fresh upholstery and an engine which lacks in power, puts out a little smoke and clicks badly when started. The Roadmaster engine on the other hand starts easily, no smoke, no clicking and pulls like a train. Feels like a solid, tight engine.I am thinking of swapping the engines this winter (which based upon the temperature outside is in about 10 minutes!), put the solid engine into the Special. Then, sell the Roadmaster as a 'project'...I am torn between doing this and leaving the current engine in the Special, selling the Roadmaster and spending time working on the Special engine.I suspect the engine in the Special IS the original engine, is there an easy way to verify this? I am just unsure as to whether I really want to take what could be an original engine out and spend untold money on it or simply switch in a known good engine and get shot of the bad engine/Roadmaster.I am of course assuming the swap will be straightforward??Sorry for the rant but any input would be appreciated.PaulI used to be indecisive but now I am not sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Tell us more about the Special. 2 or 4 dr? Sedan or hardtop? Stick or Dynaflow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 The special is a 2 door hard top running a dynaflow.Looking at the engine bays I don't see any major differences.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 The Special should have a 264 nailhead (no harmonic balancer) and the Roadmaster should have a 322 nailhead. The engine serial number will tell you what series car the engine is from (last digit of serial number) and the year, but no such thing as numbers matching until 1957. The only real way to prove an original engine for 1956 and earlier is to have some sort of paper work (title-which often used engine serial number instead of car serial number as the "VIN", sales receipt, etc.), but you can compare the car serial number and engine serial number to get some idea. I think the 322 is generally considered the better engine compared to the 264. The engine serial number should be stamped on the left (driver) side between the middle branches of the exhaust manifold, see attached picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 The Special should have a 264 nailhead (no harmonic balancer) and the Roadmaster should have a 322 nailhead. The engine serial number will tell you what series car the engine is from (last digit of serial number) and the year, but no such thing as numbers matching until 1957. The only real way to prove an original engine for 1956 and earlier is to have some sort of paper work (title-which often used engine serial number instead of car serial number as the "VIN", sales receipt, etc.), but you can compare the car serial number and engine serial number to get some idea. I think the 322 is generally considered the better engine compared to the 264. The engine serial number should be stamped on the left (driver) side between the middle branches of the exhaust manifold, see attached picture.Thanks Sean, can the 322 slot straight straight in? Are mounts and transmission mating the same?If I am going to need to get a list of items to accomplish the swap I will leave them as-is.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I think it is just about a bolt-in swap. You might need to use a few parts from the 264, like the timing chain cover and water pump, but many parts are interchangeable between the 264 and 322. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 It should be a bolt right in affair. It just won't be totally correct for show but doubt anyone would notice anyway. In 54, the Dynaflow in a Special was not as strong (less stators) as the ones in the other series but I think the 55's were the same. If not then the Dynaflow from the 70 series is too long for the 40 unless you swap some parts. My only question is, is the Roadmaster worth restoring and will pulling the engine contribute to becoming a parts car and eventually the crusher. I hate to see that happen to 4 doors. ;-( Willie, Mikey, where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Here I am.It's a straight swap.The Roadmaster would be worth less with a 264, but if you are selling it for parts, I say steal the 322. Most judges won't notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Like Lamar said it is an easy swap, especially if you use the 2-barrel carb and manifold from the 264. Don't switch the flywheel/flexplate or the balancer or pulley at the front --- they contribute to the balance of the engine and are weighted differently. The 264 came from the factory with a pulley at the front vs a harmonic balancer in the 322 and that would be the only visual difference in strict BCA judging (if it is even noticed). Post production replacement of multigroove pulleys on the 264 was a balancer with the same add as needed pulleys as the 322. Willie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Like Lamar said it is an easy swap, especially if you use the 2-barrel carb and manifold from the 264. Don't switch the flywheel/flexplate or the balancer or pulley at the front --- they contribute to the balance of the engine and are weighted differently. The 264 came from the factory with a pulley at the front vs a harmonic balancer in the 322 and that would be the only visual difference in strict BCA judging (if it is even noticed). Post production replacement of multigroove pulleys on the 264 was a balancer with the same add as needed pulleys as the 322. WillieThanks for all the input guys, MUCH appreciated.Willie, to be clear. You say to not switch the flywheel/pulley but surely they should be switched. i.e. if I pull the 322 WITH harmonic and matched flywheel and pop them in to the Special they need to all go as an item... I mean, switch out everything in front of the trans. Any reason to leave the flywheel and harmonic on the Roadmaster? Maybe I am missing something due to fast approaching old ageSo, it seems the swap is an easy one. The biggest thing i am hearing is that the Special will have a non-standard engine (this car is a cruiser and not judged) and the Roadmaster would have a slightly reduced value (it is worth little as of this evening so this is a non issue).Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I mean, switch out everything in front of the trans. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Maybe I am missing something due to fast approaching old age. Most of us are already there. and between my not being able to hear crap and a dumb ass when it come to mechanics in the first place, Willie always has to explain stuff to me twice or three times. Lot of the time I just shake my head like I understand and figure it out myself. Just "switch out everything in front of the trans" like you said. The part I don't understand about what Willie said here isit is an easy swap, especially if you use the 2-barrel carb and manifold from the 264. Why would he not want to keep 4 bbl that is on the Roadmaster Willie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I think Willie is trying to keep it "looking" original. I would do the engine switch, since it is to be a DRIVER. The best kind! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Why would he not want to keep 4 bbl that is on the Roadmaster Willie?Accelerator linkage and choke heat tube and maybe wiring to start switch. It also will be visually correct if that is important. It will have better throttle response in normal driving with the 2-barrel. ( I have participated in the same subterfuge. )Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob McDonald Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 PAUL, interesting moral quandary but I'm with most the other guys - forget the Corvette-style numbers-matching worries! Use the good motor in your Special and enjoy the extra horsepressures. Buick built so many cars in '55 that they didn't beat their record until sometime in the '70s. Don't sweat it that you'd be destroying manufacturing history by mixing and matching these two survivors. Well, one survivor and one rust victim that's probably headed for the crusher anyway.As for attracting judging points, well, that's something only you can decide is important or not. I live 1000 miles away from any city ever likely to host a BCA- or AACA-sponsored car meet. When I finally drive my car to one, it'll be because I love old Buicks and enjoy the company of their owners, not because I hope to bring home a trophy. My trophies will be bug corpses and maybe a rock kiss or two (just not on the windshield, please, please...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Guys, MANY thanks for the feedback and apologies for my tardy reply, I was in Ireland last week and just got back home last night.Having read through the various posts I am heavily leaning towards switching the engines over. As several have said, this isnt a massively rare car and my focus IS on creating a driver. If I show it, it will be at a local show and so completely original appearance is not an issue for me.Not sure if there is value here in my posting the results but I will likely do so with a few photos in the event it helps others.We have the Christmas parade on Dec 1st so I will leave it until after then.Many thanks once more,Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Paul, of course there is value ! It is a BUICK. Post away. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 OK, at the risk of visiting the workshop in the midst of a major turkey being cooked I decided to run a compression test on the engines to help me confirm my decision as to switch them.The 322 (Roadmaster) engine is as follows:REAR7 - 145 8 - 1405 - 145 6 - 1503 - 155 4 - 1501 - 125 2 - 145FRONTThey all look pretty decent to me except for 1 which is a little low. Is 125 high enough to consider this a decent engine or is the 25PSI difference cause for investigation? With a 57 year old engine these numbers look pretty good to me.I will perform same test on the 264 this PM.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buickrd Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Special body plus Roadmaster engine equals a Century. Ever hear of one of those? Ran like a dog with turpentine under his tail. Ask the NASCAR guys from 1955. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Special body plus Roadmaster engine equals a Century. Ever hear of one of those? Ran like a dog with turpentine under his tail. Ask the NASCAR guys from 1955.Thanks, pulled the 322 from the RM yesterday morning and will be sprucing it up with some paint (and removing 5 pounds of crud from it) this coming few weeks. Hope to start putting it back in the Special next month. The 264 is a little lethargic so I am looking forward to a little more oomph...nothing too major, just would be nice to hit the gas pedal and feel like there is more than a hamster under the hood. Of course, it might have been the engine considering low compression readings. Compression-wise, several cylinders on the 264 were down in the 85-90 area.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 54fins Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 the criteria I would use is - which one has rust. Given we are not talking convertibles, the rusty car will require a small fortune and would probably be best a donor. As for the ticky engine- it's likely to drop a valve and become a boat anchor. As you can see, the only difference is the bore (I have been told the 264 is a different casting, but I cannot see a difference) The power is 1st the 2 barrel and mostly the low compression from likely valve issues. The Special with a 322 and a 4 barrel would be very nice. I would not hesitate and I would leave the 4 barrel and the dual pullies, either for power steering or better yet AC- given you are not doing judging. The compression is very good, #1 (being the only weak one) might be worthy of a valve job. As for the roady and the weak engine, tough call. If it has a running engine in it you can drive it onto a flatbed. If not, then somebody has to come get it for parts. Or, find a friend with some land that won't get too pissed about storing your car carcasses and watch it recycle itself. Parting it out is often more time than it's worth. Even for free, people don't want to pull the parts. Is there anything very cool in the Roady that would make it desirable to preserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 the criteria I would use is - which one has rust. Given we are not talking convertibles, the rusty car will require a small fortune and would probably be best a donor. As for the ticky engine- it's likely to drop a valve and become a boat anchor. As you can see, the only difference is the bore (I have been told the 264 is a different casting, but I cannot see a difference) The power is 1st the 2 barrel and mostly the low compression from likely valve issues. The Special with a 322 and a 4 barrel would be very nice. I would not hesitate and I would leave the 4 barrel and the dual pullies, either for power steering or better yet AC- given you are not doing judging. The compression is very good, #1 (being the only weak one) might be worthy of a valve job. As for the roady and the weak engine, tough call. If it has a running engine in it you can drive it onto a flatbed. If not, then somebody has to come get it for parts. Or, find a friend with some land that won't get too pissed about storing your car carcasses and watch it recycle itself. Parting it out is often more time than it's worth. Even for free, people don't want to pull the parts. Is there anything very cool in the Roady that would make it desirable to preserve?54fins, agree with much of what you say. Listed the car, see link below. The interest has been amazing. Seems it will sell so thankfully I don't need to fret over the parting out issue.Buick : Roadmaster Base Sedan 4-Door in Buick | eBay MotorsJust looking forward now to getting the engine up and running in its new home. Then, I will sell the 264 once things settle down.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 54fins Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Now that Roadmaster was a surprise! I was expecting to see a rust bucket, but that doesn't look bad at all. Now that changes things a little, because now you have to consider what the roady will bring with a good engine! Post some shots of the special, hate to steer you wrong! I do see the rust bubbles on the rockers and it looks like a pimp did the seats, but it ain't that bad! Was it ever on salt roads? If the corrosion is deep in the creases, then it probably is best to pass it on. But that might just bring enough to offset buying or building an engine. The hardtop will likely be more valuable than the sedan but that roady probably aint done yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Now that Roadmaster was a surprise! I was expecting to see a rust bucket, but that doesn't look bad at all. Now that changes things a little, because now you have to consider what the roady will bring with a good engine! Post some shots of the special, hate to steer you wrong! I do see the rust bubbles on the rockers and it looks like a pimp did the seats, but it ain't that bad! Was it ever on salt roads? If the corrosion is deep in the creases, then it probably is best to pass it on. But that might just bring enough to offset buying or building an engine. The hardtop will likely be more valuable than the sedan but that roady probably aint done yet!No, the RM is a decent enough car. A couple of areas of rust but generally solid.The Special is a peach, SUPER clean.... The Roadmaster will be leaving me next week so I will than have room to get the engine into the Special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob McDonald Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Ooo, I'm likin' the looks of your lemon meringue Special. We totally steered you right in transplanting the power source to this beauty. Glad the Roadmaster found a new home too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaycee Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi, My first Buick V8 was a '55 Century, and when you're done you'll have a 2dr. Special sedan that runs like a scalded cat. Good luck! kaycee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaycee Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi, My first Buick V8 was a '55 Century and a fast car. When you're done you'll have a Special 2dr. sedan that will run like a scalded cat! Before you install the 322, it would'nt hurt to pull the Dynafow from the torque tube and install a new front seal and a few front abd rear gaskets. Good luck. kaycee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi, My first Buick V8 was a '55 Century and a fast car. When you're done you'll have a Special 2dr. sedan that will run like a scalded cat! Before you install the 322, it would'nt hurt to pull the Dynafow from the torque tube and install a new front seal and a few front abd rear gaskets. Good luck. kayceeThat's good advice, thanks. Spent the last few days with brushes/cloths and degreaser trying to get the 322 ready for paint. The decision was a wise one, I can actually see hone marks in the bores and the oil pan and head were completely devoid of sludge. SOmeone had worked on thie engine recently. I thought it felt tight.Will probably investigate the valve job and replace the Dynaflow seal you mention before re-assembly.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaycee Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Hi Paul, Good choice. Replace the rear seal too, and inspect the transmission mount. It pays to do everything right and not have to mess with the Dynaflow after it's all "buttoned up". kaycee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob McDonald Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'm going to be replacing the seals in my Dynaflow during the next week or so. Check out my progress (I hope) on http://forums.aaca.org/f163/rust-does-sleep-actually-life-57-a-292591.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wex65 Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'm going to be replacing the seals in my Dynaflow during the next week or so. Check out my progress (I hope) on http://forums.aaca.org/f163/rust-does-sleep-actually-life-57-a-292591.htmlThanks Rob, will have an eye on it throughout the week.Good prior comment re rear seal too. Will be focusing on the trans likely in late Jan.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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