Leather Interior Rant

[Guest BJM]

It drives me nuts when advertisers on Craigs List or ebay say the seats are leather when they are obviously vinyl. I can't tell you how many times I have read "Has factory leather interior". :mad:

This on vehicles that were obviously vinyl. Do people really not know the difference between vinyl, which typically is stiffer and doesn't have wear lines and soft, pliable leather with character lines?

I always want to email them and "advise" them but never bother. For some ebayers lacking car knowledge I guess it could happen that they don't remember the rare "hyde of the nauga" that was the interior coverage of choice for 30+ years but ebay and Hemmings ads?

[Amphicar BUYER]

I find that for the most part, when obvious mistakes such as this are in the ad, this is not somebody who cares. There is a good chance they are hiding something or ignorant. Either way, they are not people I care to deal with. It's in the same category of "freshly restored" yet the '35 Terraplane for sale has a GM350 crate engine and purple paint.:confused:

There are times that I will inform them of the error. I just go with my gut as to who they might be. Is it an honest mistake or an attempt to defraud?

[John_Maine]

Reminds me of my first trip to Hershey in 2004. There was a '74 Gran Torino in the car corral that I seriously considered purchasing but I knew the seats weren't original. The owner insisted they were even after I showed him pictures from the '74 sales catalog I had. It made me wonder what else was wrong with the car so I passed.

[Harold]

In my experience the car flippers don't know much about what they're selling or make claims based on what they think buyers want to hear. When I run into those situations I pass on the car.

[NTX5467]

I guess you just have to use your gut instincts on these deals, especially if you know that leather was never an option in a particular vehicle. Most younger people don't know that leather used to be in ONLY high-end cars, if at all, with the fancy brocade cloth interiors being much more "in vogue" back then. I also suspect that many of those sellers are not aware what it would cost to put leather where leather was not originally, so that's another factor . . . except on very later model vehicles which Kat____ didn't make leather interior kits.

From experience, WE can never hope to fully educate these sellers as WE are not the experts to THEM, as there is always some "known individual" of theirs' who is their trusted information source . . . even if that source is dead wrong. Especially when what we might tell them would somewhat devalue the car, BUT might make it more saleable as others would then be more likely to believe what the seller was telling them.

Best to let "the buyer be ware" and hope the ultimate buyer is happy with what they did with their money.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest bkazmer]

It is a particularly common issue in 60's/70's upper-middle price cars. For example, Cadillac Calais, Buick Electra, Olds 98, typically had vinyl, not leather. Yet some years leather was optional on Bonneville, I believe. Go figger

[39BuickEight]

Sadly many people actually think that their vinyl is leather. I deal with it in my job all the time.

[Matt Harwood]

Honestly, sometimes it's just hard to tell. We get all kinds of cars in the shop and while I usually know when they're supposed to have leather, maybe they don't anymore, and some vinyls are awfully convincing. Take a look at these:

1925 Bentley. Sure looks like vinyl to me, shiny and slippery with no "comfort marks" that leather gets after years of touring use. But it's a quarter-million dollar restored car with AACA and CCCA national first prize awards and numerous book and magazine appearances. I'm still not positive what it is, but I went with leather since the car has been vetted by people more experienced than I.

1940 LaSalle. Good color and a texture like rough-hewn leather. I ultimately decided it was vinyl, but only because they used the same stuff in the trunk and top well, and leather is just too expensive to waste like that.

1936 Ford phaeton. I'm pretty sure Ford was still using real leather on the open cars in 1936, but it looked shiny and just too smooth and perfect for leather. But I called it leather because that's what's supposed to be there and I couldn't say for certain without cutting a hole in it.

1948 Plymouth convertible. Not a correct interior by any stretch of the imagination, but nicely done and very supple and luxurious feeling. Brand new so you can't go by wrinkles. Ultimately I decided it was vinyl simply because of the car's price point.

1948 Studebaker. Still not sure on this one. Hard and stiff like older leather, but it's just a low-end Studebaker. Too nice and unblemished to be leather, but too rough to be vinyl--feels exactly like a saddle. Appropriately done with correct patterns throughout, and a nice older restoration that's correct in most ways.

So while I really, really try to get it right, the stuff is so convincing these days that I can forgive an average guy for not knowing the difference. I'm in the industry, I do this every day, and sometimes I still get confused. Who can blame a guy who knows nothing for getting it wrong? Sure, you can do some homework and see how they were originally, and the non-original stuff is almost always vinyl, but who knows if someone actually put leather in the car where vinyl was originally or vice-versa? Heck, I'm still planning a red leather interior in my 1941 Century--not standard equipment, but possible.

But leather in a Torino? Um, no.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Amphicar BUYER]

....From experience, WE can never hope to fully educate these sellers as WE are not the experts to THEM, as there is always some "known individual" of theirs' who is their trusted information source . . . even if that source is dead wrong. Especially when what we might tell them would somewhat devalue the car, BUT might make it more saleable as others would then be more likely to believe what the seller was telling them...

I have informed people (including a bit of my experience so they understand I do know what I'm speaking of) on eBay a time or two that what they list as an Amphicar part is an aftermarket doodad and not actual Amphicar. 70% ignore my help and continue to list and re-list and re-list the part at Amphicar prices ending w/o a sale. 25% thank me for the friendly info and re-list with corrected info/price. The last 5% tell me I don't know what I'm talking about as they "know" this is a real Amphicar light pole and it is worth a $billion cuz creepy Uncle Ernie bought his Amphicar brand new in 1957! I just let them waste their time and $ on it. I know of one light pole that was mis-listed at least 6x and never sold. It may have been worth $5 at most. Well, Okee dokie then.

Honestly, sometimes it's just hard to tell. We get all kinds of cars in the shop and while I usually know when they're supposed to have leather, maybe they don't anymore, and some vinyls are awfully convincing.....

If you have to, pull the seat and look or feel the backing if it's exposed underneath. Sometimes you can pull a hog ring or two and get a peek too. On a high $ car, it's worth it to know fer sure. It may be hard to explain the duct tape patch from your exploratory holes!

Edited August 13, 2012 by Amphicar BUYER (see edit history)

[MarrsCars]

MB Tex is the branded vinyl Mercedes-Benz uses in their cars and many owners, even of new vehicles, have no idea it's not real leather. Personally, I prefer it for it's durability and how nice it looks even decades later, but leather does have something special about the way it ages, if well cared for, that really adds something to certain types of cars.

I also laugh every time I see someone selling a W140 S-class, the one with the double glazed glass to eliminate wind noise, making a claim that their car is "bullet-proof." I used to broker armored private vehicles so I know that no car is truly bullet proof, just bullet resistant, but that aside they hear some allegorical tale about how the car is so rugged that it could stop a bullet from low powered guns, and decide "that's enough for me, yup, it's bullet proof!" There was even a news report in Portland recently about a pair of thugs who were driving around in a "bulletproof" Mercedes, but it was just one of these factory S-classes.

[NTX5467]

I concur with checking the backside of the material/leather to see what it might be. Some owners might get a little miffed at that request, though. So, that determination would have to be made using some high-level optical devices (eyes) and "digital sensory inspection" (finger tips), plus seeking out that distinctive leather smell.

A few years ago, I was looking at some base-level Cadillac CTS sedans we had in stock. On the window sticker, it mentioned "Leatherette seating surfaces" (or some other part of the seat covers being "leatherette"). THAT was one of the earlier names for "vinyl", as if to slightly elevate it a little from the more common "vinyl" in more mundane vehicles.

Used to be that not just the seating surfaces were leather, but using leather in just those areas had already started in the 1980s, as I recall, and continues. Many modern cars, with their laterally-cramped interiors and inner seat cover surfaces that slide against the sides of the center console, you'll find CLOTH in that area on "leather" interior front bucket seats. When they used vinyl or leather there, it would squawk when you adjusted the seat.

I've seen some factory interiors where the vinyl they used on the seat cover sides was an exact match for texture and patina of the leather seating surface it mated with. I've also seen some which was highly obvious that they were dissimilar materials, too.

Judging interiors at national level events can be a little tricky, especially if a motivated judge finds something that nobody else had discovered previously . . . and can verify what they found beyond a shadow of a doubt. Like a thick and soft vinyl pretending to be "leather", but without the smell.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest BJM]

Matt

One difference in your examples. Your cars are significantly older and probably reupholstered. I still appreciate the time you spent to show the examples. That Bentley is crazy, that looks like vinyl to me.

But most of my experience is from the 60's and 70's and I should have made that apparent. In the early 60's vinyl became very common even on high end cars. I finally snapped when I saw a 63 Buick Wildcat on ebay with the factory vinyl buckets interior described as "factory leather".

Vinyl was used through the late 70's still quite a bit. Thereafter clothe became the norm. I do not believe leather was even an option in the early 70's Buicks. Electra Limiteds had nice seats but they were clothe and ditto for Rivieras, where vinyl buckets were still available.

[Restorer32]

And to confuse things even further our leather salesman recently gave us samples of "recycled leather" which apparently is made of finely ground leather scraps formed and dyed to look remarkably like "real" leather at a lower cost. I can't tell it from fresh off the cow leather from the good side but it looks different on the back, very uniform with no grain to it.

[LINC400]

There are some instances when it is difficult to tell whether you are looking at vinyl or leather. However, in 1960's and 1970's cars, it should be quite obvious. But generally it is not someone that mistakenly identified it as leather. Usually they are too lazy to do any actual research, and leather sounds much better in their ads than vinyl. This is how there are ads for Chevy Novas with leather interiors. Trying to educate them is generally not going to do any good. They will usually just argue that you do not know what you are talking about. They know so much better from having zero experience with the car.

I have a similar pet peeve with "Cartier" edition 1970's Mark IV and V and Town Car. First, there is no Cartier Edition in the 1970's. They did not exist until the 1980's. And the Mark IV and V Cartier Edition came only in specific colors of Dove Gray (1976 & 77) and Light Champage w/ Cordovan accents (1978 & 79). There are no exceptions. They also have special badging identifying them as Cartier Editions. However, every Mark and TC came with a Cartier clock. You can argue until you are blue in the face, and show them the factory brochures that confirm this. They will just tell you that you have no clue what you are talking about. They have a blue, red, green, yellow, orange, brown, etc. Cartier, and no one is going to ever convince them otherwise. It says Cartier on the clock, so they have a Cartier Edition.

Edited August 14, 2012 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

As stated, the "designer edition" Lincolns had their own special and unique colors, specific to WHICH designer series it was. The Bill Blass editions looked pretty neat when they came out, but by the time that series was over, I'd tired of looking at that particular color combination. Might there be some "solid" documentation in the VIN or on the ID plate to verify the special edition status, in addition to color codes? Just curious. Otherwise, a refinished special edition (refinished in a different color combination!) might be "the real deal" and otherwise look bogus?

By the time the middle 1970s had gotten here, the previous fancy brocades of the more expensive cars had transitioned into "velour" of many variations. Leather was still around, generally, but didn't seem to really fit with the DEEP pile carpeting and the velour interiors. Even the high-end Buick Electras and Cadillacs with the "four place seating option" had velour.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[5219]

In recent years the quality of upholstery leather has declined greatly while the look of some of the vinyls has improved. The newer leathers are a much different product from the leather that was used on luxury cars as recently as the sixties.

I am not sure why this is.

[LINC400]

As stated, the "designer edition" Lincolns had their own special and unique colors, specific to WHICH designer series it was. The Bill Blass editions looked pretty neat when they came out, but by the time that series was over, I'd tired of looking at that particular color combination. Might there be some "solid" documentation in the VIN or on the ID plate to verify the special edition status, in addition to color codes? Just curious. Otherwise, a refinished special edition (refinished in a different color combination!) might be "the real deal" and otherwise look bogus?

There is nothing in the VIN, not sure if the ID plate would show anything other than the correct color for the designer edition. In any case, those would only be needed if someone had painted and upholstered a non-designer edition to look like one. When you are looking at one that was obviously never made in that color and upholstery and without any of the correct badging, there is no need to verify any data plate to confirm it is not that edition.

I was at the Ford 100th and saw a car that the owner was insisting was an edition that it obviously wasn't. I said I wish I had my brochure with so I could show him the difference. He pulled his out of the trunk and showed it to me. Right there in pictures and listed in the description it stated that edition only came in a special blue or gold. His was black without the special interior or anything else that edition was supposed to have. The idiot pointed at the back of the brochure showing all colors available for that year, and said "See, you can get it any of these colors." A younger Ford Motor company exec walked over to see what was going on. He agreed with me that it was not the edition the owner was claiming (in fact it was a bottom of the line nothing car). The owner then went on a tirade about how we stupid young whippersnappers (the Ford executive and I) didn't know anything.

I feel it would be the same arguing that the interior was not leather in many cars listed as such.

As an aside, the Bill Blass Edition for 1979 was the white hood, trunk, and fake convertible top with midnight blue sides. Everyone assumes they all looked like this. They only looked like that for one year, 1979. They were other colors the other years.

[Matt Harwood]

There is nothing in the VIN, not sure if the ID plate would show anything other than the correct color for the designer edition. In any case, those would only be needed if someone had painted and upholstered a non-designer edition to look like one. When you are looking at one that was obviously never made in that color and upholstery and without any of the correct badging, there is no need to verify any data plate to confirm it is not that edition.

I was at the Ford 100th and saw a car that the owner was insisting was an edition that it obviously wasn't. I said I wish I had my brochure with so I could show him the difference. He pulled his out of the trunk and showed it to me. Right there in pictures and listed in the description it stated that edition only came in a special blue or gold. His was black without the special interior or anything else that edition was supposed to have. The idiot pointed at the back of the brochure showing all colors available for that year, and said "See, you can get it any of these colors." A younger Ford Motor company exec walked over to see what was going on. He agreed with me that it was not the edition the owner was claiming (in fact it was a bottom of the line nothing car). The owner then went on a tirade about how we stupid young whippersnappers (the Ford executive and I) didn't know anything.

I feel it would be the same arguing that the interior was not leather in many cars listed as such.

As an aside, the Bill Blass Edition for 1979 was the white hood, trunk, and fake convertible top with midnight blue sides. Everyone assumes they all looked like this. They only looked like that for one year, 1979. They were other colors the other years.

That happens an awful lot. I recently spoke with a gentleman who insisted that the 1954 Lincoln Capri we have coming up might be a special road race car built by Lincoln with a 5-speed automatic overdrive transmission. Only a few were built and since ours is yellow like the one he used to own (which was of course this very special prototype racer) it might be it. This gentleman also insisted that he owns a prototype 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix with a special experimental supercharged engine with 500 horsepower. Rather than argue with guys like this who seem to really, really need to think they have something special, I just listen, let them get it out, then thank them for sharing their knowledge.

My father always said "A wise man smiles at the fool." In this business, it has served me well.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Amphicar BUYER]

My sister was taken by a guy who sold her a '78 Vette as a "25th Anniversary edition" car. From 4 blocks away I knew it wasn't one due to the colors, then up close I went from 100% to 200% certain. It was a 25th anniversary YEAR but NOT edition. I really wish she would have spoken with me 1st.

[39BuickEight]

That happens an awful lot. I recently spoke with a gentleman who insisted that the 1954 Lincoln Capri we have coming up might be a special road race car built by Lincoln with a 5-speed automatic overdrive transmission. Only a few were built and since ours is yellow like the one he used to own (which was of course this very special prototype racer) it might be it. This gentleman also insisted that he owns a prototype 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix with a special experimental supercharged engine with 500 horsepower. Rather than argue with guys like this who seem to really, really need to think they have something special, I just listen, let them get it out, then thank them for sharing their knowledge.

My father always said "A wise man smiles at the fool." In this business, it has served me well.

I smiled at the guy last week who told me his 2009 Camaro was a Z28. Not only does no such car exist, if it did, I would think it would have a V8. His was 6. Nothing wrong with the car, just the mislead owner. I really think he thought he had a Z28. Dealer probably told him that.

[MarrsCars]

In recent years the quality of upholstery leather has declined greatly while the look of some of the vinyls has improved. The newer leathers are a much different product from the leather that was used on luxury cars as recently as the sixties.

I am not sure why this is.

In our Cayenne we had the "new style" leather you speak about and even tho it was on a high end vehicle I hated the finish because it looked and felt so fake. Most modern leathers not only have a dye but a plasticized layer that is affixed over the top to better protect the finish. You can't even use traditional leather conditioners on these new style seats because it just sits on top of the plastic top layer and does not absorb in.

To the contrary, the new vinyls have really come so close to matching the thickness, touch, and even fine appearance of grain patterns that they look more like "real leather" than real leather does! Someone mentioned recycled leather, I'd avoid that like the plague, worst of both worlds. Do you remember how pants came with belts largely during the 80's, or if you've ever bought a "leather" belt that literally split and cracked apart right where it folds when taking it on and off after just a few months, that is the recycled leather material made of scraps all pressed into a form. It's the particle board equivalent of leather and does not last very long at all, I'd definitely choose vinyl over this stuff.

[john2dameron]

People will constantly amaze me when telling me about their cars. I asked a man how his 1930 Pontiac coupe came to have a Seaman body on it and his reply was that General did not own Pontiac yet when his car was built. I did not ask him any thing else. I took a teenager to a show at Bridgewater, VA and was telling him that 1929 was the first year Chevrolet used the 6-cylinder engine and the owner of the car we were looking at said there was some discussion whether to use the engine that year or wait until 1930 and "Billy Durant" said let's do it and they went ahead and put it in that year. And then there was the woman at Winchester VA that got very indignant when I told a teen that because her Imperial was a 2-door hardtop it was a "Newport." "Oh no," she said. "Newport was a much cheaper car than the Imperial." I guess she also did not know what a Ford Victoria or a Studebaker Starliner or a Pontiac Catalina was in 1953. I enoy talking to car owners when they are knowledgeable about their cars but when they rant and rave like an idiot I just shut up and walk away. My policy is if they are happy being ignorant let them be happy. As the old saying goes "Ignorance is bliss" and there often some of it around at any car show to say nothing of the people that will deliberately lie to you.

[earl e rizer]

One car in particular that can fool a lot of people, me included is the 69 Mercury Marauder X100. That is the softest,most realistic man made "pleather" I've ever seen! I remember they called 'soft as a baby's bottom" in the reviews at the time.